Detroit Shooter

I just went on a shopping trip and drove a 2009 C2S PDK, 2009 C2S Manual, 2007 Turbo tiptronic, 2012 991 C2S. Here are my observations.

2007 Turbo, WOW very fast in the power band.
2009 C2S PDK and manual, more refined then the turbo, very nice cars fast and handle well.
2012 991 C2S takes it to a different level. Ride when you want it handling, speed, looks. A much more refined car. For my money it is the whole package a sports car you can drive at any level you want to drive at.

I toyed with getting a 09, 10 turbo. It is a spaceship for sure. Toss you license out the window as you drive off the dealers lot. Possibly too much is that is possible. But it is "old technology" and I planned on keeping the car for a while.

In my limited experience what the others have suggested is true, the variants are significantly different. I would not buy before you drive.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html

This is interesting showing that the 991 was able to do a better time then many of the 997 variants. The S might just surprise you.

For the record I have a C2S 991 coming in 3 days and I am like a kid. I have not been this excited in years.


With that said I think you could find a dealer that might have a used 991 to drive. Check cars.com and autotrader.

rotero8513

Take a look this:



Awesome perfomance in and out of the track. How needs more?

Detroit Shooter

Those video's are fun if you search Motor trend hot lap on you tube you can see similar videos on many different cars and that is where the Randy Probst Lagua times came from.

jlanka

I'm drooling watching that video. Thanks!

aamersa

If I were you I would at least test drive a 997 turbo and a 991S or 4S and then decide whether you want a 991 turbo or another more powerful 911.

My experience on the 991 S is that it lacks low end torque particularly in regular and sport mode and is not crazy fast in those modes either.

In sport + it transforms into a devil and gets stupid fast, but you can feel the engine working very hard extracting strength from every ounce of displacement. So if you like a super fast car and want to feel and hear it exerting itself then this is a great car, also very balanced and handles well. If you want something super fast that does it rather effortlessly without making much noise then you may want to consider a more powerful variant.

John 996 TT Cab

You can also add the Power Kit to the S if you think you'd like another 30 hp!

SSST

One advantage to the Turbo in street driving is that it makes a lot of torque down low so a lot of power is always there when you need it. You don't have to keep the engine wound up to stay in the fat part of the torque curve.

That's the biggest advantage of the turbo in my mind. Plus face flattening acceleration when the opportunity presents itself.

I recognize that other versions are faster around a track and the PDK provides quickness advantages because it shifts so fast. But there is nothing like the TT to make you scream holy #%*+ while running flat out in any of the first 4 gears.

simsgw

I wouldn't say no restrictions. A subtle one occurs between ordinary dealers and the Premiere dealers who have more units allocated each year. They can afford to have a few miles on some of their allocation. Lots of buyers don't care about 50 miles on the clock if they even notice, and a Premiere dealer will always have another pristine unit handy for buyers who do care. But the much bigger distinction is in the buyers. Someone walks into a dealership cold in ratty jeans and an old sweatshirt, he isn't going for a test drive in a Boxster, let alone a Turbo. If he drives in a comparable exotic of any make, it will be a question of 'reading' his intentions. Especially around here, you run into people with money, but too much disdain for the rest of us to dress civilly. So he might get a test drive in something relatively cheap to read him better. And if his agent called ahead to say his pilot just got picked up and he just cashed a seven-digit bonus, "so please make him happy," then they'll buy him lunch and patch his jeans withal.

Most simply, if you're a Porsche owner with a recent model, and you visit a Premiere dealer, and they read you as a buyer, then yes: you can test drive essentially anything. I did. And I did for a couple of years ahead of time with fair warning that I wasn't ready to buy. They 'read' me as a buyer when my current Porsche approached end of warranty and pretty much let me test anything that caught my eye. They were right of course. It's really common sense more than anything.

If you don't currently own a Porsche, or any comparable exotic, then a smart salesman isn't going to put you in a 600 hp supercar and send you off with directions to the nearest canyon road. But at a premiere dealer, you certainly can get test drives in a Carrera and if they assess you as a serious knowledgeable buyer, then probably anything you seem ready to buy. I wouldn't have asked to put miles on my dealer's half-million dollar GT, but if I did care for that sort of car, something could have been arranged. They want to sell. If you want to buy, and manage to convey that, they'll show you their goods.

I have to agree with MikeInCA and OldGuy. I drove the 997 GT3, the 997 TT... in the S version I believe it was, and I owned a 997.2S for three years until just trading it on a 991 C2S. I can't agree with AAMERSA about the low-end torque of the 991 compared to the Turbo. The Turbo has excellent low-end torque compared to early generation turbos, but I didn't find anything to distinguish it from the 991 S on public roads. I might find some difference on a track, but I wasn't shopping for a race car. (For what its worth, low-priced race cars from twenty years ago will walk over a 997 Turbo S. All it takes to be quick on track is less weight, then shave some weight, then get rid of some kilograms, and finally take off the excess pounds. And find a driver with big attachments who weighs 138 lbs like Sebastian Vettel.)

I'm not down on Turbos. Don't misunderstand. A friend has a 997 Turbo S and we have a great time doing canyon runs together. But the only way his Turbo will ever leave behind my C2S is if we swap seats. The difference in speed is easily overwhelmed by differences in drivers. But the feel is entirely different. Still Porsche 911 of course, but two different styles. Try any recent Turbo. If you love it, wait for the new ones to come out if you think you can afford one. Or look for a good price on a 997 Turbo. They're great examples of the breed. But if you don't love it in the first ten minutes, then forget about Turbos. It's very much like ... like cilantro I understand from a friend with a bad reaction to that herb. You either love Turbos without needing an explanation, or they are a waste of fifty grand and you'll have more fun with a straight Carrera.

I'm am thoroughly accustomed to cars pushing my helmet against the headrest and slackening my shoulder belt by compressing the seat back. I can't say the Turbo does that any better than the 991. Not on public roads. At 120 mph it will, if you plan to see those speeds. But most of us rarely do in road cars. Owning a Turbo is not about horsepower so much as personal taste in cars. Turbo owners keep buying turbos and naturally-aspirated lovers keep buying our naturally-aspirated cars. In almost every situation, including Time Trials, the horsepower difference between a 997S and these other choices is overwhelmed by driver training and... uh, those attachments. One of my students at the last DE/TT was an experienced autocrosser in a 997.1S looking for some advanced coaching before starting work on real tracks. After a morning of coaching, he posted the fastest Porsche time of the day, being beaten only by one modified car running in X class. Besides me, the forty-some cars he beat included a couple of GT3's and three turbos of different generations, including a 997 TT-S running in a modified class, but probably really street stock. As Old Guy or Mike in CA said, buy the car you love to drive on the street and then come out to PCA training to make it faster than the ones you turned down. We'll tune up that fellow behind the wheel.

The GT3 is a lovely car. Not really a race car, because it is smooth as silk and I'm sure the new generation will be also. Real race cars feel like clapped-out manure trucks until you get them up to speed. But the GT3 makes you feel at normal speeds the way race cars do at 90-150 mph. It is primarily designed to be a track car, just not a racing car without a lot more preparation. I'm guessing the design goals for the engineering team were "Track precision plus ample road comfort to appeal to sports-minded ladies and gentlemen," just like the original Porsche goals. I loved it, but my back won't let me forgive the extra chassis stiffness I'm afraid. Not on our current roads in Southern California.

Living on either coast is a trial for sports car owners right now because road quality is the worst I've seen in decades. Don't buy a GT3 unless you have some other daily driver or your DD requirements are limited to well-maintained, great drivers roads. That way, the daily entertainment will combine with the track fun to make the stiffness seem worth it. With any other sort of daily drive, you'll be making excuses every morning to drive something boring-but-comfortable until you look up and two years have passed with less than 2,000 miles on your GT3. I wouldn't hesitate to grab a GT3 if you do have the right conditions though. It was a delight to drive the 997 GT3 and I'm sure it will be that way in the new one as well.

To replace my 997.2S, I tested Panameras and the 991 two weeks ago. My spine problems are growing worse and I need something that pampers me between track events. The Turbo was no better nor worse than my current car. The GT3 was fun, but not for the public roads around here. Panamera was my fallback but I don't really want a sedan, so I gave the 991's a chance. I was deeply impressed by the entertainment value. You probably can tell I'm an old timer who can give a generation to Old Guy, and I've driven a lot of good cars in the last sixty years, but I actually laughed out loud while driving the 991 C2S Cab. It was that much fun. Like being back in my '65 MG when it was new and so was I, except... with 400 horsepower. And as much torque available for public road use as the Turbo I'd just climbed out of.

I ordered one with the options I want and I'll have it in a couple of weeks. I know it will be as able to leave behind my friend's Turbo S as was my last Carrera, but that won't be the point. Instead, I'll stay with them and be having a hell of a good time.

Try the 991's and maybe a couple of 997's if you're curious. You'll find more than enough power to do anything you'll ever ask on a public road. And on a track for that matter, unless you get formal training. Try a Turbo as well if you think the different style might be to your taste, but not for the horsepower. Just to see if you and Turbos were meant for each other.

The nice thing about Porsches is you can't make a bad choice, as long as you do make a choice. Pick one you like and you will end up loving it.

Gary

jlanka

Gary, beautiful answer and it must have taken quite a while so I appreciate your time. Its nice to see a forum where people take this care to answer new folks questions.

I'm 51 so it sounds like I may be a bit younger than you but I've also never owned a sports car except for a 79 Corvette when I was in my 20s. So someone with your experience really helps with my decision making.

I will go to the dealer with a tuxedo next time and see if I can get a test drive (just kidding). But how do I determine whether the dealer is "regular" or "premium" ? I have been visitng South Shore Porsche in Freeport NY

Thanks, Jeff

simsgw

South Shore is not a premier dealer. Visit the Porsche dealer locator and specify "show Premier dealers only" after entering your zip code. I saw none in New Jersey or New York, but found two in Connecticutt: Danbury (744-5203) and Fairfield (367-3700).

Yes, I'm a little older. I've been around since WWII.

If your last sports car was a '79 Vette, you'll be happy with the naturally aspirated Carreras, with or without the S option. I've driven Vettes off and on since the original '57 and the biggest change in the Porsche model line (and the party line is to not mention this!) is that since 2009 the Carreras feel like a Corvette coming off the line. There. I'm not so aged I can't get three different uses out of the same word in one sentence!

Seriously, Porsche traditionally used very efficient high-revving engines to get world-class track and road performance. They were the fastest way from point A to point B over the winding roads typical of Europe and large parts of the U.S. post war. But they couldn't win a drag race if you used a catapult.

Starting with 2009 and the models designated 997.2 internally, they used direct-fuel injection, a technique we had used in aircraft since the aforesaid World War II (although my contribution was soiling my diapers while the guys at Lockheed were doing that down the street). DFI retains the exciting high-reving character of Porsche engines, but it adds great buckets of torque down low. That's why even with dual turbos to eliminate lag, a Porsche TT really doesn't have noticeably more torque off the line than a Carrera built since 2009. Up around five thousand rpm, the Turbo will have an advantage, but the time lapse between 5,000 and the red line is so short, who would know? And second gear redline is a good way to lose your license on public roads.

That's why I say that the real difference in Turbos is their 'feel' on public roads. Lots of ink has been spilled trying to describe that difference, but the short version is a Turbo feels planted and solid -- and potentially able to double any speed you might choose on a straightaway. A Carrera feels lively and agile and eager to double any speed you might choose in a corner.

Lots of that difference comes from the standard four-wheel or what Porsche calls "All-Wheel" drive of the Turbos and the extra few hundred pounds they carry. Carreras are 'merely' as fast as Corvettes. That is still awfully fast. Shortly after buying my first, I casually passed an SUV on a winding back road. He must have tried to use his big V-8 to prevent that. I didn't notice and the pass went off quickly of course. What I did notice was my speed as I braked for the next corner. I was already braking and passing 115 mph on the way down. I don't drive that way on public roads. But like Corvettes and Ferraris, Carreras are enormously and casually fast if you don't pay attention.

Whereas, the Turbos... Well, they are as fast in a straightaway as anything on the planet that costs less a million dollars. They can go round corners almost as fast as Carreras, but their stock tires are essentially the same so that extra few hundred pounds costs them a few tenths in the twisty bits on a track. They make it up on the straights.

You can't really use that enormous power until you put them on a track. And most of their drivers on a track will decide to opt for early lunch when confronted with a tight corner approaching at 110 mph if they feather the throttle or 130 if they hammer it. No offense intended. Just an observation.

Gary

chuckbdc

The (other) old guys here are right.

docfink

Enjoy those responses, Gary! Kind of making me want to scratch that itch to drive a 991, even though I'm happy with mine.

I don't let myself test cars I'm not intending to buy, as I don't want to waste the salesperson's time, nor do I want to tease myself with something likely better than what I've got, but I'm not prepared to buy. Maybe in a couple of years.