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Old 04-13-2017, 05:48 PM
  #1201  
Z356
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Originally Posted by STG View Post
Would be curious on hearing the details.
Not sure you want to post here or send
by email/PM sometime?
There is no need for secrecy with my
issues with PAG/PCNA. I am totally
dissatisfied with the way they are
running PTS. And how many of their
US dealers are now taking advantage
of the scarcity of PTS allocated slots
to overcharge their customers for the
priviledge of PTS in their desirable
gt models.

The fact that they made the approved
PTS list 'confidential' in the summer of
2015 is a telling sign of how messed
up their thinking is on PTS. That has
prevented us here at Rennlist from
publishing it & keeping informed the
Porsche enthusiast community about it.
These are some of their best customers.
And trying to keep this information hidden
is a pretty short sighted policy. I just
makes more work for them at 'Porsche
Exclusive' since they are tasked with
answering questions about PTS even
though their department doesn't run
or control it.

So I am telling anyone that contacts
me via pm or emails (and I get daily
requests for all sort of PTS information)
to contact PCNA in Atlanta directly
because I am pretty much done with
them. For the past three years, I have
been trying for PCNA or PAG to arrange
a simple meeting with a representative
of PTS in Germany. I told them that I
would report back to the readers of
Rennlist (my threads on PTS have over
1 million views...so it's a popular topic!)
exactly what they (Porsche) would tell
me about their PTS program. So give
them an opportunity to discuss the limitations
of PTS at PAG, explain the decisions for
the short PTS windows...and anything else
they want to say about THEIR program!
I have made clear to them that it's better
for PAG to explain their PTS program clearly
to their potential customers to avoid the
frustrations when the requested PTS option
is rejected on an order. Their customers
don't really understand why that is...and
it's best to explain to all how PAG runs the
program & how best to take advantage
of it!

So for three years I have been asking them
to let me talk to a PTS representative. And
that request has gotten nowwhere! I will be
at the factory next Tuesday & all I will get to
do is the factory tour for 12 Euros for two.
Nothing more, nothing else! And it's not
just me or Rennlist, I have not see them
provide Panorama, Excellence or Pete Stout
of 000 any real access to the opaque world
of PTS at Porsche.

So that is as far as I am willing to take
it. After all, it's their company & they
can do as they please with it. My more
immediate concern now, quite frankly,
is deciding between 'Rosso Corsa' &
'Rosso Scuderia'.



***

Originally Posted by Keadog View Post
All I could come up with was a "Blahnik" stare.

Good to see you post! Have a fun, safe trip.
I'm still at mid-July for delivery.
Thank you Keith. Good luck with your order!

Saludos,
Eduardo
Denver Airport...waiting for my Lufthansa
flight to Frankfurt!
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Old 04-13-2017, 08:55 PM
  #1202  
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Eduardo, I think they have ZERO interest in promoting the PTS program as they can't handle the demand or don't want to make it bigger than it is.

Keeping things secret and not cooperating with someone like you, puts more power in their hands and dealers to maximize its offerings. The less information the enthusiast has, the better. They want it to be another one of those "special perks" they can exploit.

You've practically done enough work and promotion of Exclusive and PTS in general, that you should have been on the payroll.

I think they really don't care about the "enthusiast component" to their business much. They'll take your money, and that's about it. Kind of a joke how the Porsche clubs do so much work for them as well. The clubs care more than the company they support it seems.

From all I've heard, things have changed and they're just about pumping out volume. These special requests and PTS only slows things up.

In addition, I hear from many dealers about their own frustrations with PCNA and not getting the cars they need, but getting the ones they can't move. You feel the frustration with them too.

I don't think PCNA treats its dealers very well as is. You expect them to treat you any better? Very disappointing. Porsche 5-10 years out from now doesn't excite me much.

I think many Porsche enthusiasts that like exclusivity will slowly migrate to companies like McLaren and Ferrari in the future.

Sports cars are becoming a side business for Porsche. SUV's, sedans, and electric is what they've become and are going. Sports cars merely feed the "image".

Just picture this, you have a guy who knows 95% more about these programs than any dealer or most employees of Porsche going through a "factory tour" with the rest of the tourists and treated just like another head of cattle. Pretty pathetic on their part. Hope it's worth the 12 Euro. After all, it's just cheap marketing for them to sell the next Panamera or Cayenne.
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Old 04-13-2017, 10:26 PM
  #1203  
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Originally Posted by STG View Post
Eduardo, I think they have ZERO interest in promoting the PTS program as they can't handle the demand or don't want to make it bigger than it is.

Keeping things secret and not cooperating with someone like you, puts more power in their hands and dealers to maximize its offerings. The less information the enthusiast has, the better. They want it to be another one of those "special perks" they can exploit.

You've practically done enough work and promotion of Exclusive and PTS in general, that you should have been on the payroll.

I think they really don't care about the "enthusiast component" to their business much. They'll take your money, and that's about it. Kind of a joke how the Porsche clubs do so much work for them as well. The clubs care more than the company they support it seems.

From all I've heard, things have changed and they're just about pumping out volume. These special requests and PTS only slows things up.

In addition, I hear from many dealers about their own frustrations with PCNA and not getting the cars they need, but getting the ones they can't move. You feel the frustration with them too.

I don't think PCNA treats its dealers very well as is. You expect them to treat you any better? Very disappointing. Porsche 5-10 years out from now doesn't excite me much.

I think many Porsche enthusiasts that like exclusivity will slowly migrate to companies like McLaren and Ferrari in the future.

Sports cars are becoming a side business for Porsche. SUV's, sedans, and electric is what they've become and are going. Sports cars merely feed the "image".

Just picture this, you have a guy who knows 95% more about these programs than any dealer or most employees of Porsche going through a "factory tour" with the rest of the tourists and treated just like another head of cattle. Pretty pathetic on their part. Hope it's worth the 12 Euro. After all, it's just cheap marketing for them to sell the next Panamera or Cayenne.
Well summarized and I fully agree. Porsche is no longer independent and the hedge fund failure sealed their future.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:32 AM
  #1204  
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The Italians and English are attractive too.

I prefer Italians though. Much more sexy.

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...ar-but-11.html
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Old 04-16-2017, 08:25 PM
  #1205  
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Eduardo.....Enjoy your trip......Please report back on anything exciting ...your insight is always welcome!!!!
Too bad PORSCHE mgt. is to busy trying to fix the VW scandal.....otherwise they would have time for you I am sure!!!!
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Old 04-17-2017, 06:40 AM
  #1206  
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Originally Posted by STG View Post
Eduardo, I think they have ZERO interest in promoting
the PTS program as they can't handle the demand or
don't want to make it bigger than it is.

Keeping things secret and not cooperating with someone
like you, puts more power in their hands and dealers to
maximize its offerings. The less information the enthusiast
has, the better. They want it to be another one of those
"special perks" they can exploit.
In the end, keeping PTS production low & clouded in secrecy
will come back to bite PAG in the rear end. You will see it as
frustration builds up in the next year as customers expecting
to be given the opportunity to order PTS on their .2 991 gt3
& future gt models get turned down in greater numbers. Or
worse, savvy dealers keep those PTS allocations to themselves
& then sell those cars to highest bidder after they come in.


Originally Posted by STG View Post
You've practically done enough work and promotion of
Exclusive and PTS in general, that you should have been
on the payroll...Just picture this, you have a guy who
knows 95% more about these programs than any dealer
or most employees of Porsche going through a "factory
tour" with the rest of the tourists and treated just like
another head of cattle. Pretty pathetic on their part.
I don't mind being treated like anyone else. I don't
deserve any special treatment. What I have done in
the past & present re: Porsche goes back to a simple
motto developed early in our hobby. It used to have
special significance once. And PAG even published a
book once with it on its title that is part of my memorabilia
collection:



****

I can't complain. I have met & been treated kindly in the
past by folks closely associated with this company:



****

I also have wonderful memories of participating in events
that are historically recorded in the pages of Christophorus:





****

And I own an early original paint 911 that was selected by the
Porsche family to earn the prestigious 'Honorary Judges' Trophy
at a PCA Parade:







So I have a track record at Porsche that dates back years. Still
I don't need VIP status on my frequent visits to Zuffenhausen.
I don't have any problems getting in a line for a tour with fellow
tourists of the assembly line. I am more concerned about the
direction their management is taking with regards the sharing
of product information with their customers & looking the other
way as dealers take advantage of the scarcity of PTS allocations.

Originally Posted by Werks 1 View Post
Eduardo.....Enjoy your trip......Please report back on anything
exciting ...your insight is always welcome!!!! Too bad PORSCHE
mgt. is to busy trying to fix the VW scandal.....otherwise they
would have time for you I am sure!!!!
Thank your for your well wishes.

Saludos,
Eduardo
Volkach, Germany
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Old 04-17-2017, 08:49 AM
  #1207  
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Eduardo, why do you think PTS is a program that they don't invest in more to make it more accessible like others have done and figured out (Audi, BMW, McLaren)?

Given their manufacturing setup, are they or will they ever be able to embrace it more without significant investment?

Where do you see PAG in the next 5-10 years compared to the company they have been of the last 5-10?

Hope the trip is going well ..
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Old 04-17-2017, 11:44 AM
  #1208  
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Originally Posted by STG View Post
Eduardo, why do you think PTS is a program that
they don't invest in more to make it more accessible
like others have done and figured out (Audi, BMW,
McLaren)?

Given their manufacturing setup, are they or will
they ever be able to embrace it more without
significant investment?
I do not know the answers to any of these questions
That is why I wanted to talk to the people that are in
charge of this program to find out their thinking &
'strategy' for PTS at Porsche.

But here is what I do know. PTS at Porsche is 'older
than dirt'. We had PTS (to my personal knowledge)
as early as the late 1950's in 356A's...and probably
earlier. We have had PTS available from the early
911's to the present 991 without significant interruption!
In 1970, when my 'Crystal Blue' 911E Targa was
ordered, PAG offered 30 colors for the 911/914-6
model - 9 standard & 21 'special' colors.



And even this bell-bottoms 'Age of Aquarius' climate of
chromatic excess in color offerings, the most I remember
PAG ever offering in a model year, Porsche still allowed
PTS that year. And 1.3% of the MY1970 production
(nearly 16K) were done, in fact, as Paint to Sample.

Here is an older post I wrote several years back:


"But in general, historically speaking, PTS has been
a very slight percentage (usually between 1% & 2%)
of total Porsche production. Even back in 1970, when
my 'Crystal Blue' 911E Targa was built in a 'Special Color'
which was ordered by only 15 or 16 folks worldwide in
that entire model year (.01%), PTS was ordered by
1.3% of MY1970 911 & 914-6 customers!

Christophorus no 89, october 1970, page 44.
Article by Richard von Frankenberg.

..." for the first 11 months of the 1970 model year,
the picture is as follows ..."
..." August 1969 to June 1970 inclusive ... during
this period a total of 15,749 porsches of types 911
and 914/6 were built ..."

This means - 1% = 157 cars, and (see below), 0.1%
would be (unless my maths is worse than i thought!)
16 cars ...

the (what he calls) standard colours ...
- blood orange 14.48%
- ivory 13.75%
- signal orange 11.72%
- irish green 7.03%
- albert blue 6.81%
- conda green 6.56%
- bahia red 6.42%
- burgundy red 6.07%
- pastel blue 4.23%

then the special colours
(note, he says only 1.3% were buyer match colours (PTS)... not included here):

- metallic silver 7.83%
- metallic blue 2.78%
- lemon yellow 2.10%
- black 1.22%
- metallic green 1.21%
- adriatic blue 1.21%
- light yellow 1.11%
- metallic red 0.96%
- sepia 0.79%
- olive 0.68%
- signal yellow 0.60%
- bush green 0.21%
- beige 0.10%
- signal green 0.10%
- porcelain blue 0.10%
- light red 0.10%
- ivory 0.10%
- crystal blue 0.10%
- turquoise 0.10%
- turquoise green 0.10%
- light grey 0.10%

I have figured out the English names that were
used in our market for these colors (translated
from the original German version of Christophorus).
But I can't find it at this moment.

I think that the % of PTS is presently about the same,
relative to total Porsche production, although PAG has
admitted to me in private that demand for the option
is rising rapidly, much faster than predicted or anticipated.
I wonder why???? Maybe, just maybe, our PTS threads
here at Rennlist can account for some of that rising interest!"


****
So, to pick up on that last line from the above post,
what is 'new' in this PTS game is that starting in 2012
we at Rennlist started to openly discuss PTS & bring
information about it to a larger audience of enthusiasts.

That is when we started this important thread:



*
Followed by one for the 987/981 forum:


*
And one for the 991 gt3 forum:


*

What stands out to me, if you look at the number of views
these threads have generated, is the significant interest the
topic continues to generate here at Rennlist...which is the
epicenter of the Porsche enthusiast community in the world!


*
I lived (or suffered) through the PTS period in 997/987
days. There was no list of PTS colors already approved
that was published internally at PCNA & dealers...so ordering
PTS was a crap-shoot. PTS was then a seldom ordered
option that was reserved for the cognocenti & a few
experienced dealers in the US, Europe & the Middle East.

What we at Rennlist have done with PTS is nothing short
of revolutionary. We blew the doors open on this opaque
option & made it accessible & understood to the general
enthusiast community. And it has translated into large
interest & demand for this unique option.

And how has PAG responded to all of this?

A) Well, in July of 2015 it made the approved PTS list,
that we first published in this thread back in 2012 &
updated regularly, 'Confidential'. I have been trying
to convince the ever since to reverse this policy. But
make no mistake about it, this clause was put there
to prevent us here at Rennlist from continuing to make
it public!



B) PTS has been increasingly hard to get in the more
desirable models. The best effort was done with the
MY2016 .1 991 gt3 RS, although the selection process
left much to be desired. Very few PTS 981 Spyders
allowed. A few more gt4's but not a significant number.
The 911R PTS allocations were dismally low. Between
50 to 100 of a total of 991 units all allocated to the most
important VIP Porsche customers world-wide. So even
the VIP's got the short end of the PTS stick! And now,
the speculation begins for PTS .2 991 gt3. My prediction
for it is that many, if not most, will be sadly dissappointed
with the low number of PTS allocations that PAG will
allow to these desirable models.

C) PAG has refused to let me talk to anyone associated
with PTS at Porsche. And to my knowledge, no other
enthusiast or journalist has been given access to someone
in that department to investigate/understand how PTS
is decided & done at Porsche.

So that is what I see. And I am not impressed with
their actions.

Originally Posted by STG View Post
Where do you see PAG in the next 5-10 years
compared to the company they have been of
the last 5-10?
If we are lucky, the VW Group will sell a few of their
star divisions to settle the lawsuits & financial hemorrage
caused by the sheer stupidity of 'DieselGate'. And no
division of the company is more attractive to a potential
investor than the brand & technical expertise contained
by Porsche.

Saludos,
Eduardo
Romantik Hotel Friedrich von Schiller
Bietigheim-Bissingen
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:09 PM
  #1209  
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I recently built a 991.2 C2S and was considering going leather to sample in purple - part of me thinks I should have really pushed for it. Could this have been done?
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Old 04-25-2017, 11:54 PM
  #1210  
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Originally Posted by wisky View Post
I recently built a 991.2 C2S and was considering going
leather to sample in purple - part of me thinks I should
have really pushed for it. Could this have been done?
What part of you, exactly, has a secret 'dead wish' &
doesn't care anything about resale?
Just kidding (I think).



Could have it been done presently in a 991? Perhaps. Just
ask 'Porsche Exclusive' & they will tell you. There is an approved
'Leather to Sample' list that we have publidshed before here on
this thread & some other leather colors might have been added
more recently. So ask. And given that the artist called 'Prince'
passed away recently, you may have little competition for this
color interior in a Porsche!



Saludos,
Eduardo
Piemonte, Italia
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:02 AM
  #1211  
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Originally Posted by wisky View Post
I recently built a 991.2 C2S and was considering going leather to sample in purple - part of me thinks I should have really pushed for it. Could this have been done?
My 993TT. Anything can be done if you know the secret handshake.
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Z356 View Post
What part of you, exactly, has a secret 'dead wish' &
doesn't care anything about resale?
Just kidding (I think).



Could have it been done presently in a 991? Perhaps. Just
ask 'Porsche Exclusive' & they will tell you. There is an approved
'Leather to Sample' list that we have publidshed before here on
this thread & some other leather colors might have been added
more recently. So ask. And given that the artist called 'Prince'
passed away recently, you may have little competition for this
color interior in a Porsche!



Saludos,
Eduardo
Piemonte, Italia
Where do you find these things? Geez...
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:25 PM
  #1213  
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Originally Posted by TorqueChap View Post
My 993TT. Anything can be done if you know the secret handshake.
I love it. Congrats on having such an awesome rare build unicorn - if you ever want to sell it...

Originally Posted by Z356 View Post
What part of you, exactly, has a secret 'dead wish' &
doesn't care anything about resale?
Just kidding (I think).



Could have it been done presently in a 991? Perhaps. Just
ask 'Porsche Exclusive' & they will tell you. There is an approved
'Leather to Sample' list that we have publidshed before here on
this thread & some other leather colors might have been added
more recently. So ask. And given that the artist called 'Prince'
passed away recently, you may have little competition for this
color interior in a Porsche!



Saludos,
Eduardo
Piemonte, Italia
I ended up going with Miami Blue / Red - Black 2 tone leather, which is arguably bad for re-sale also (according to the dealer). Resale is not my concern when ordering a new car - as these cars are worth $20k less as soon as you drive it off the lot anyway!
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:59 PM
  #1214  
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Originally Posted by wisky View Post
I love it. Congrats on having such an awesome rare build unicorn - if you ever want to sell it... I ended up going with Miami Blue / Red - Black 2 tone leather, which is arguably bad for re-sale also (according to the dealer). Resale is not my concern when ordering a new car - as these cars are worth $20k less as soon as you drive it off the lot anyway!
Thanks Wisky. PTS Amethyst over LTS Magenta. And if that wasn't enough it was a Day 2 performance upgrade by TechArt.

PS - Just saw you're in Bergen County. I was raised in the most northeastern part of that lovely locale and still have my parents there. 201 FTW
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Old 04-27-2017, 01:52 AM
  #1215  
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Originally Posted by Keadog View Post
Where do you find these things? Geez...
Keith: You don't want to know. A dark place.

***

Originally Posted by TorqueChap View Post
My 993TT.
Holy Smoke!

***
Originally Posted by wisky View Post
I love it. Congrats on having such an awesome
rare build unicorn - if you ever want to sell it...
The 'Holy Smoke' is inhaled & appreciated
by other Rennlisters. Great!



***
Originally Posted by wisky View Post
I ended up going with Miami Blue / Red - Black 2 tone
leather, which is arguably bad for re-sale also (according
to the dealer).
Good for you!

***
Originally Posted by wisky View Post
Resale is not my concern when ordering a new car -
as these cars are worth $20k less as soon as you
drive it off the lot anyway!
Frankly your challenge will be in finding a Porsche dealer
willing to take a chance that you will be around to pay in
full for the 'Miami Blue mit Purple' C2S when it arrives!

If the dealer is stuck with that car for any reason, including
'consumer protection' laws like those in many States (e.g CA,
which allows even those who custom order to walk away),
a $20K loss DOES NOT even begin to describe the financial
'hemorrhage' they'll suffer. You perhaps can afford to be
cavalier about it. But I doubt many dealers will take that
risk with you!

Saludos,
Eduardo
Piemonte, Italia
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