gellie

Hey doc. Sorry to hear about your car. Fellow NJ guy. Would you mind telling me the dealers name? You can PM if you dont want to post here. Good Luck. Thx.

minthral

Ahh... a dealer messed up another car. Hmm...nothing new...

Turbos failing or any major engine trouble is very uncommon (on forums anyway). It kinda sounds like dealer misdiagnose and tampering with stuff they don't have the training or experience with is what the pitfall is.

Personally I'd be scared to accept the car now that they pulled the engine out (after ripping hoses)...who knows whats else is wrong now. Check lemon law in your area... 30 days of not having the car and them not fixing it might allow you a way out. Honestly PCNA is just lip serve...they direct you to dealer for everything and are on their side not yours.

EDIT: 2017 C4S with 30k+ miles. Never any check engine lights. Water pump replacement due to slight weep hole leak (apparently that's common and debatable if its even a problem), squeaky brake booster replaced (possibly from bad brake job at Indy), misaligned strut mounts (from factory and reported by others...dealer work created a rattle in the rear door panel though), and I got a spot where factory windshield seal 'glue?' coming out a little. Some mechanical PDK or AWD system clunking noises crawling in traffic, but that's probably normal. Otherwise lots of aggressive driving and its been really solid...handles great and everything 'just works.'

Cyberbug

This, was waiting...you should have called PCNA on week 2 and called them every day.
also tell them every month that goes by they will be liable for payments and you are already consulting a lawyer
unfortunately Lawyers grease is the only thing that works on the big squeaky wheels.
i would even take a $200 flight and give them hell in person

Cyberbug

You haven’t mentioned the dealer name? Why
that’s leverage right there
internet reviews are best leverage second to lawyer

Penn4S

I agree 100% with contacting PCNA and telling them your issue and that you are consulting a lawyer. I would tell the dealer the same thing.
And really consult a lawyer as this could get messier than it already is.
I have been treated so well by my dealers that I would be beside myself with this situation.

BSO

I assume the warranty is still in force and they're providing you with a loaner. As stated before, lemon law if the time runs.

I know it's tough getting stuck with the lease monthly, it would be the same if you were buying it on installment, you have to pay unless you can find a way of getting out of the lease, call the lease company and tell them whats going on, they may have some input. You may have to lawyer up, that's another aggravation.

I wonder if Porsche Germany is playing hardball with the dealer because they know they're screw-ups and are refusing to make the parts available, forcing the dealership to pay for the damaged items and eat the labor, not get them for free and paid for the repair shop rate.

Document every little thing going on, who, what, when, where, why, as you may need the ammunition.

If you haven't done so, tell them you're active with a popular Porsche owner's forum and that a very large number of interested forum members are following the process, many are asking for the dealer's name.

Porsche_nuts

You may have hit the nail on the head. I never heard of Germany refusing to send parts to a dealership for repair, so there has got to be a reason for it.

AnandN

If they, Porsche Germany, is doing that then it is a **** poor company. The customer should come first. Any issues they have with one of their dealers should not penalize the customer. A paying customer and a repeat customer who doesn’t have his car. There are other ways to punish the dealer but this situation is very poor customer service. Very disappointing.

Porsche_nuts

Porsche Germany is there to make a profit, they are not going to pay for a dealer's mistakes. If dealer tech breaks a part, Germany is not going to send them a replacement part for free. Germany regularly will refuse to pay for fixes until they see the codes and that the fix is legitimate in their eyes. From what I have read, this seems to be the dealer's fault, and not Germany's. They misdiagnosed the issue to begin with, then broke a hose. Maybe Germany is refusing to send the hose because the dealer is refusing to pay for it - even though they broke it. Dealer breaking hose is not part of a warrantied item that Germany will cover, I don't think. It is a shame that customer is stuck in the middle, but that usually is the case. Dealer needs to make it right by doing what it needs to do by opening its wallet and fixing what it screwed up

eroc0808

I think this a MASSIVE problem across the board in all industries. Not many technicians have any sort of problem solving 'logic' skills. Think back to when you were in high school or college and had classes like algebra and calculus. Did you say to yourself ,"this is stupid and i'm never going to use this in my life."? Well stuff like that is meant to teach problem solving logic, 'if this, then do this'. I find many people who decide to choose a technical career in mechanics or some type of service industry are the same people who blow off all of those types of classes because that means nothing to them, and unfortunately they are no good at them. This leads to mechanics who will change the lamp that won't light up in their house before checking to see if the damn circuit breaker was tripped in the fuse panel. NO TROUBLE SHOOTING LOGIC ORDER OF OPERATIONS. This is blatantly the case with OP's car. The turbo not reaching boost? REPLACE IT! Don't bother to think about why it doesn't reach boost which could be numerous other things. Sad to say no dealer or any service industry is willing to pay great technicians what they deserve so try to find people willing to do that type of work with excellence only to make 50K or so a year....not going to happen. Not many people, including customers, are willing to pay for the amount of time it may take to properly diagnose a problem at hand so up front it makes more sense to guess and cross your fingers. It's only after 2 and 3 incorrect guesses that it becomes the **** show. Now all this money paid for nothing, stuff taken apart and changed for nothing, and stuff accidentally broken for nothing. Ok so now let us give the car to a 'better' tech and pay more money to figure it out...endless cycle. My guess is Porsche has stopped that dealer from having its sub-standard techs work on the car, wasting money guessing, and now demands the top tech to perform the work who is probably backlogged with similar types of other problems from other 'parts changer' techs. These 'proper techs' get fed up and usually quit to work for an indy or start their own workshop to make what they deserve....now there is no one left that can fix the car under warranty. And again this is across all industries, not just automobiles. Reminds me of the time i went to the doctor because i had pain in my jaw and it was sporadically cracking when I opened wide. I totally watched the doctor google my symptoms on his little iPad and told me what it could be. He never even touched my face to articulate my jaw to feel or witness the problem. I could have googled it myself for free but I still had to pay him. Turns out it took a real doctor willing to go through the problem solving logic I described earlier and spend more than 3 seconds with me to tell me I chew too much gum...my jaw is fixed.

Sorry for the long wind. The bottom line is todays cars are so complex that in order to be great at fixing them, you need a great background in electrical logic/theory ,computer networking, and problem solving logic. Most problems with todays cars are electrical or networking issues of control modules and wiring of such. People with the proper background to diagnose those types of issues without guessing are not working on cars for a 'measly mechanics' salary. The technicians that do have those types of backgrounds and are phenomenal technicians leave to do their job elsewhere where they are appreciated and make what they deserve...or flat out change careers. No body getting paid a 'job hour' rate is going to put any time into figuring out your problem because it costs the technician money in the long run if it is not figured out quick enough...hence throwing parts at it. This is why when my cars have problems and are under warranty I still buy the parts and fix them myself...stupid as it may sound, I have piece of mind knowing it is properly diagnosed before a part is purchased and I know nothing else was damaged and glued together and hidden in the meantime. I also know the problem is actually fixed. I will only use my warranties for catastrophic failures like internal engine or transmission issues...and will dump the car as soon as it is fixed. There is nothing worse than not trusting your car to work when you need it too and always having that doubt in your mind wether or not it will start when you're 200 miles away from home or god forbid need to get somewhere in an emergency and limp mode hits.

worf928

The answer to this 'conundrum' is very simple:

First, Dealerships do not deal directly with Porsche A.G on warranty issues. It's PCNA. But, the latter does have a lot of German staffing. So, the point may be pedantic.

Bottom line, *anyone* can get a Porsche part from multiple dozens of places.

There are only two reasons why any entity would not get a Porsche part:
- the part is not in stock in both N.A. and Germany(*)
- the entity is not willing to *pay* for the part.

You don't get parts for free. It's that simple.

(*) A 'good' Porsche parts person can search, world-wide, the entire inventory of Porsche parts at both Porsche-owned logistics centers and Porsche dealers. My 'parts person' has found me 'unicorn' parts collecting dust in dealers in random countries and had them 'recalled'. It ain't cheap. But, unicorn parts are never cheap.

Bottom line: if the part exists it can be put in-hand. No excuses.

The rest of this is beginning to make sense too:

I wonder why all the good people left? It seems clear that something has changed at this dealer.

Imagine how management treated their techs and SAs if they treat their customers as poorly as you?

IMO Occam's Razor suggests: New management. Maybe LBO. Squeeze *everything* for profits. Treat techs and employees even worse than techs and employees at dealerships are usually treated. Good people leave. Newborns hired. Skimp on factory training(*). Lather rinse repeat in a vicious negative feedback loop.

(*) Dealers have to pay for factory training. It is expensive. They hate it when factory trained techs leave. Thus they are 'scared' that if they pay for factory training the tech will leave as soon as possible. This, btw, is one of the reasons the tech changing your oil is commonly not factory trained if your dealer service department is busy enough to have a backlog of any length.

I don't think I have any great - or even good - advise for you. Here are options that immediately come to mind.

- You can call PCNA's customer care line. Explain to them very politely the situation. With as little emotion as possible, describe how confused you are by what the dealer is telling you. Ask them what they can do to help. Don't yell at PCNA's rep. Make them your friend. Make them sympathetic. (i.e. "Sir/Ma'am, if this was your car how would you feel about this?") Oh, BTW, If PCNA does anything your dealer will be even more pi$$ed-off about it. Get the case number. Follow-up politely.

- Review Lemon Laws in your state. If they are a fit for this debacle find an attorney that does LL.

- With PCNA's consent and approval, ask to have the car flat-bedded to another dealer to take over the repair. Expect to be asked to pay for the non-warranty parts the first dealer broke. AAA card may help here.

- If the first dealer actually comes through with a 'fixed' car, I'd probably pay another dealer to examine the work. PCNA might - if you work with them - approve warranty reimbursement for anything the second dealer repairs that's a result of the first dealer's work. Maybe.

SeanR

It's also not unusual for Porsche AG to with hold releasing certain parts for shipment to the states. Could be that they are in limited stock and want to keep what they have for production vehicles, for their service centers or just one day they feel the need to be a pain. We get this issue almost weekly for parts on 30 year old Porsche's. Most likely the dealership is telling you the truth and can't give you a proper date for parts release. Yea, it sucks.

worf928

What if we could sue 'Shops' for malpractice? The bottom line here is that damages - the basis for monetary awards from lawsuits - are 3? 4? 5? orders of magnitude higher when dealing with human lives. Thus, the economics don't work at a 'system level' to drive the quality of 'car health care.'

In health care we have a 'systems architecture' that is the result of regulations and the GOs that enforce and monitor them, insurance, for-profit companies and people, and of course a sea of lawyers willing to go to bat pro bono. This, while it has some obvious flaws - such as expense - does seem to keep health care from being driven to a lowest common denominator. (Comparisons to non-US sytems will quickly lead to the P&C forum.)

But, in the end I think, if we could, routinely, sue for auto care malpractice an oil change would cost $3000 not $300.

'fixing' cars should be similar to 'fixing' humans, in terms of generalities of process. Ideally, we'd prefer to have highly-trained, motivated, reasonably-well compensated, smart folks working on our Porsches, following a logical, methodical process; People that treat them - comparatively - with the same regard as our health care professionals treat us.

But, the economics and regulations of fixing cars doesn't lead to a system that provides this level of care in general. Most folks just want a car to 'go' and they want to spend as little money as possible. As long as it will 'go' they don't care if it's leaking oil or doesn't steer as well as it used to. As a result 'car health care' is driven to a lowest common denominator in general.

And I've got about 30 years of stories on the other side of that. Sometimes it's the manufacturer, sometimes, it's the hospital. Any situation has three sides: one party's story, the other party's story and the root cause.

Buy a Corvette and see how Chevy treats you. Your luck of the dealer draw might be better than the OPs with Porsche.

Seriously, there's no car brand with uniformly stellar service throughout it's service network. Even if you find a stellar service department 'things change.' Good people leave. Management changes.

What I do believe to be true though, is that Porsche Technicians are on average way better than at other brands. Think about it: if you are an auto technician what do you want to spend your days fixing? Cars that are - on average - really cared for - even loved - by their owners or cars that are treated as appliances by their owners?

I, when dealing with outside auto service, always make it a point to meet the tech in person, shake their hand, let them know how much I appreciate what they do and how difficult it is for them sometimes (see previous post on 'squeezing'.) I want them to know the 'face' of their work. Many techs never get this attention. They just slave away under their corporate overlords for faceless customers.

worf928

Sean, yeah, for limited new-production stock or NLA/MIA parts for old Porsches. But, if that were the case, why wouldn't the dealer relay to the OP that the part is unavailable due to no-stock? It's certainly possible, but... Occam's Razor for a 991 is that the dealer is in a pi$$ing contest about warranty with PCNA.

AnandN

I like your reasoned and thoughtful analyses and posts. I have been a researcher in the physcial sciences with a fair amount of advanced training (the usual PhD route) and decades of specialization in a field (as I am sure many on this board). So, any issues with the technologies I invented I can answer easily because of familiarity with the field and expertise. But I was always a lab geek more interested in journal publications and patents and (thankfully) was not facing customers. Unusual problems, usually came to folks like me when customer-facing technicians run into serious trouble. So, I share your perspective.

If this current problem with OP's car is not unusually complicated for a geek to get involved and can be solved by bean counters, they should solve it without inconveniencing the customer. This type of ownership experience would ensure that I never touch another Porsche again.

Regarding 911 ownership, I am not interested in fussing over a car however nicely it drives. I have better things to do with my time and my now retired ***. I did own a Boxster for 4 years prior to my 911 and that was a trouble-free car. Got rid of it once the warranty was up. My 911 will be out of warranty in 2021.Depending upon how well the car does over the next 2 years, I may keep it or get rid of it. I have owned Volvos for more than 15 years and the dealer and Volvo have treated me well. Dull cars (even the R versions) no doubt compared to Porsche but they worked well and I was never stranded because the dealer or Volvo refused to fix a car. Not interested in that kind of ownership. Never ever have been tempted by Corvettes, Mustangs, Camaros etc. Not for me. Maybe Audi or an AMG but then, I have owned two Audis in the past and they were miserable experiences. Don't know about MB ownership.