mdr911

Video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtai...ature=youtu.be

So let me preface this with this is my second day on a track and my first day tracking my Targa. My first track experience was with a 991.1 Turbo S Cab (which I previously wrote about in this forum) and I posted a pretty mediocre 2:18 as my best lap of the day with that car. But overall I was happy with that first experience as a I 1: stayed on track the entire day, 2: it was a rental car, 3: Buttonwillow is not an easy track to just hop on and drive fast.

My goals for the day were to try and run a sub 2:15 lap and to run that consistently. By my fifth session I ran a 2:12.061, got second in my group and posted 2:13/2:12 for pretty much every lap of the fifth session. I was lucky that by the fifth session most of the cars had cleared for the day and I was running with a Stage 2 M2 (I was able to pass) and a 991 GT3 (I kept up with the entire time). One more note was that the entire infield was mud and by the second session there were two cars that were stuck in the mud for most of the day. The track itself was dry but there was this lovely dog that wandered on and off the track all day and lucky me I was able to capture video footage of me avoiding plowing into her as she walked onto the track right around sunset curve (the dog also wandered onto the track during the Miata Supercup Challenge which could have been a disaster).

Overall if you bother to watch the video you can see I left a lot of time on the track by not hitting lines perfectly, some less then ideal braking, too much lift during sweepers around Riverside, Sweeper and through Grapevine / Bus Stop (plus I had traction control on and a passenger). I feel pretty confident that with another day + no passenger I can hit a 2:10 with my stock Targa 4 and then with some of the upgrades I am planning (Stage 2, Tires, S Brakes, Camber) my goal would be to hit a 2:05-2:06. I’m sure a better driver could take a stock Targa 4 to 2:08 or better (which would put it in a class of a lot of modded BMWs, 718s, etc). Additional thoughts from a novice track hero on a stock 991.2 Targa:

• Driving the Targa around Buttonwillow after previously tracking the Turbo S is a great reminder of just how awesome the 911 platform is. The car behaves in a consistent and reliable manner across all the 911 models even when you are adding an additional 200+ HP, etc. and while the Turbo S is a very advanced version of the 911 it isn’t like driving a completely different car.
• The body roll of the Targa 4 is very reasonable - as is the grip of the stock tires (I did upgrade the car with Torque Vectoring from the factory but it is basically a stock Targa 4). I ran with all four tires at 32 PSI. I really enjoy the AWD as a novice track driver - esp as the 911 utilizes it- as it is a very forgiving car to push but still can hang with a lot of the RWD cars.
• The low-end torque and hitting 99MPH in 3rd makes the car a blast to drive on a track like Buttonwillow with lots of turns - my top speed was 111 on the main straight (vs 120 in the Turbo S) so a nice Stage 2 boost will def. help to keep speed around the sweepers and accelerate out of the apex’s faster.
• The 991 Carrera model is a great choice of a track car to perform well on both small and long tracks - but won’t necessarily be the best on either. If your goal is to get the fastest time of the day on a small track and not spend much money grab a Miata - if you want to hit top-speeds and blast down sweepers you might have to upgrade to a GT / Twin-Turbo. But if you want to have fun and compete / hang on a variety of tracks while driving home comfortably the 991 is a great car to do it on.
  

spdracerut

That's a significant improvement from your first day, good job! The only way to get faster is seat time. Having an instructor will greatly accelerate your progress. I would recommend having an instructor for the next 3 track days. I would also only recommend you modify your car with brakes (safety first, nothing will make you crap your pants faster than reaching the end of the straight need to slow down for the turn and having no brakes) and tires. I would leave power alone as the car has plenty. For my personal mentality, I only ever drive 90% on the track and I don't go chasing time. The one time I had a transponder on the car was the one time I went off track in recent times. I've been doing track days for somewhere around 17 years and I've only gone off track 4 times; 1 during my very first track day and it started raining. Once at BW, once at a track in Florida, and once at Streets of Willow when I had the transponder and was chasing lap times. It took about an hour to get all the dirt out of the cabin after that one. There were also thoughts of, "please don't roll" as I was sliding sideways into the dirt at around 50mph. Every off-track was due to pushing too hard and going over my limit (not necessarily the cars). I've seen guys go off that many times in one day because they are super aggressive. Personally, I like being able to drive my car home with no damage. My previous track car was a Honda S2000 which was capable of 2:00 at BW 13CW, but I typically drove around a 2:04-2:05 pace. That's with sticky tires and suspension and 250hp. S2000s with aero for more downforce are deep in the 1:50s.

Here's a video for reference (not me) of a non-aero s2000 doing a 1:59. Being a low power car, to get down to that time requires a LOT of corner speed and using a LOT of track. Getting comfortable with corner speed comes with experience. As for using as much track as the guy in the video... I don't like using the curbing that much, ha.

This is a 981 Cayman S on sticky tires doing a 1:59. Quite a bit less dramatic than the s2000. Having an extra 75hp and weighing about the same helps quite a bit.

I would imagine your car on sticky tires is a mid 1:50s car. Tires are everything though. You may want to consider investing in a separate set of track wheels/tires. But I bet you can get down to 2:05 with you car as-is with another 3 track days with an instructor. You already made a huge jump from your first track day to your second. With more experience, you'll continue to find the limit of the car and increase corner speed along with getting more comfortable with higher corner speeds.

bwiele

I have a 2017 Targa GTS and I just want to say thank you for posting your video. Really made me smile.

JSETarga

mdr911

Thank you for the feedback and sharing the videos. Agreed on instructors, I had an instructor the first day and it helped tremendously. I am going to Chuckwalla for a day this weekend as I happen to be in Palm Springs with my family. I do like the transponder as for me it is less about my quickest time but how consistently am I hitting my times and then go back to the video to see where I can improve on braking, lift, lines, etc. But overall I am def pushing the car slowly into finding its range vs. trying to be the fastest on the track. I am going to move forward with the exhaust + cats for more of the sound vs. increasing speed and the COBB Tune is for the accessport and maps vs just more power (getting real and reliable temps, etc. that I can map back to my runs).

What tires / wheels would you recommend for a 991.2 Targa for track days? I've gotten a lot of conflicting advice. And getting to 2:05 would be epic as it means I am actually driving consistently and improving.

mdr911

You are welcome! I think the Targa's get a bad rap for being too heavy and not able to hang suspension-wise with the Carreras, etc. I love being able to keep-up on the track with heavily modded track cars.

mdr911

I am going to upgrade the front brakes to the S Brake pistons and pads. What pads would you recommend (and should I upgrade brake fluid?) - also I'm looking at getting track specific wheels and tires- any recommendations there?

spdracerut

Chuckwalla is a fantastic track. Originally laid out as a motorcycle track I believe, so it has long and flowing corners. It's pretty flat out there in the middle of the desert, so there's very few visual cues for braking points and turn-in points. I found the curbing to be the best references to use for my turn-in and track-out markers. Watch as much vid as you can before going. When I went, the track was very dirty the first session and my car got pelted pretty badly. The first session out, you may want to keep a lot of distance from the car in front of you until the track is clean.

The stock Targa wheel/tires sizes:
front: 8.5x19, 50 offset wheel, 235/40 19 tires
rear: 11.5x19, 56 offset wheel, 295/3519 tires

I think the Carrera T wheel/tire package (or aftermarket equivalent, like OZ wheels) would be perfect for track use.
front: 8.5x20, 49 offset, 245/35 20 tires
rear: 11.5x20, 76 offset, 305/30 20 tires
One would think the Carrera T wheels/tires could swap over to the Targa with no issues, but you'll want to double check with the dealer to make sure they won't rub on anything. To get the sticky tires (Pirelli P-zeros, P-zero Corsa), you have to go 20".

This is Porsche's summer wheel/tire guide:
https://www.porsche.com/usa/accessor.../tyreapproval/

To throw a little confusion into the tire sizing, you can get Bridgestone RE-71R tires which are a 'street' tire designed for competition use. All the auto-x and street class time attack guys use the RE-71R. They come in 235/40 19 front which is correct, but only 285/35 19 rear. So slightly smaller/narrower than stock. Handling wise, it would make your car understeer less, but I don't know if the difference from stock size would throw off the stability control. I would think not... but hard to say with all the electronics in modern cars.

For mods, Castrol SRF is the go-to super serious brake fluid that will not boil. The stuff 2x-3x more expensive than other brake fluids, but how much do you value your life right? For exhaust mods and headers specifically, I'd recommend the Vektor Performance headers as you track your car. They're made from 321 stainless steel which is more robust and better suited to hard track use than headers made from 304SS which is a weaker material. They have the best design for spool-up/response/power too. Headers will improve the transient response on track making the car easier to drive as it'll be more responsive to throttle position changes. With the COBB, definitely use the datalogging feature. For now (until you have more seat time), I'd stick to stock power tune on track. More power = more heat and more speed = harder on the brakes, oil temps, etc. Then you can always flash in the stage 1 tune for street use

mdr911

JSETarga

spdracerut

With the 20", track day tire options would be: Pirelli P-Zero Corsa, Bridgestone RE-71R, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2.

Once your stock rotors are toast, a good brake rotor upgrade option are the Girodisc 2-piece that are also slotted instead of cross-drilled. I really dislike cross-drilled rotors for track cars as they are significantly more prone to cracking. I have no direct experience with the DSC, but from what I've read, it basically keeps the car more stable making it easier to drive. Is it need? Not at all. Will it make the car easier to drive? Probably. For brake fluid, I've also used Motul RBF600 for a decade and half. In my car and motorcycle. But it does require getting flushed somewhat frequently, at least once a year. If I haven't tracked in a while (over 6 months), I always do a brake fluid flush. Maybe overly cautious, but around 20 years ago in my younger and dumber days, I had my brakes completely go out on me from fluid boil on the street and I had to go straight through a red light at an intersection. Luckily, it was late at night and there were no other cars, but from that moment on, I don't ever skimp on brakes and always make sure I have more than I need.

Side note, auto-x is a great venue for learning the limits of your vehicle at a slower speed setting. It's a different driving style too with the slaloms and whatnot requiring quick transitions which is not something you necessarily do on a road course. Speed Ventures runs a non-traditional auto-x. Traditional SCCA competition auto-x, you do you a run or two in a session, then you have to go work the course and pick up knocked over cones for a session. The way Speed Ventures runs it, they just have a course laid out and you just go do runs in your assigned group. Each group runs for 30 minutes or so. Typically 3 groups. They have peopled hired to pick up cones all day so you don't have to. No one is keeping track of times, so you have to remember your own time on the display board after you finish your run. But you can get up to 30 runs or more over the full day. If you get there first thing, you can usually get a bunch of runs in the first session before more people show up. And then at the end of the day as people leave, you can get in a bunch of runs. Typical SCCA competition auto-x, you may get 5-6 runs over the whole day.

http://www.speedventures.com/events/...il.aspx?id=721

superdog

JSETarga

spdracerut

People are weird. If weight were the determining factor, everything heavier than a Miata isn't worthy of being tracked. Who cares what car is being tracked as long as people are having fun? A Targa is still lighter than a Mustang or Camaro. Should those cars not be tracked? I'll track anything. I've tracked a Ford Focus, Mazda Millennia, Miata, a WRX wagon, and a ~2007 Infiniti G35 sedan too. Word of advice on the G35, turn off the stability control because it actually makes the car easier to drive with more linear throttle. With the stability on, I think called VDC, the throttle tip-in input is very aggressive (makes the car feel more powerful on the street) which causes the rear to step out every time when applying the throttle on corner exit. The rear brakes were smoking coming off the track because it had to apply the brakes to bring the rear back inline every time.

mdr911

Absolutely - the Targa still weighs almost 200 pounds under an M2 and is about the same as an M3. As many people point out if you want to get the fastest time on a track you probably won't start with a Targa but the car by all means hangs with more "track ready" cars and it felt pretty fun to hang with a GT3 on Buttonwillow.