Ccpecot

I hope that he gets this worked out. However, questioning the value of his house should be the last topic for discussion. My wife and I were shocked when we moved from a gated affluent neighborhood in Northeast Atlanta to CT 10 years ago. We were shocked with how much you don't get for you money. Compared to this small house for 1.4 million in Darien, CT, near where we used to live, I'd say Nick got a deal:-) https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...061381&view=qv

evilfij

He donates all the profits (after paying for camera gear) of his YouTube to charities. Sorry for the bad luck with his cars. But remember stout went through something similar with his 991.2 so it happens.

worf928

I thank you for your thanks. But, I need to make it abundantly clear in large font that

I did not diagnose root cause with Nick's 991's issues.

I'll go further and, without reparsing my previous posts to be sure, write that

I didn't directly, or specifically speculate on root causes for Nick's cars.

That was never my intention. Certainly, one might, incorrectly, deduce from my posts that I was convinced that aftermarket stuff was the problem. I am not convinced. I wouldn't even offer to bet on the cause without more data.

I did ask two questions: 1) Did Nick have aftermarket stuff (AS) in his 991.2 and 2) was the AS installed by the same shop that did the 991.1. (A better question would have been if it was installed by the same individual.)

The second question has yet to be answered. The first question sparked a discussion of failure modes due, indirectly, to AS and it was in the context of that discussion that I posted The Tome.

I don't know what Nick's 991's issues are. I prefer data before speculating. Before even prioritizing speculation, so as to direct diagnosis tasks, I prefer lots of data. Data are very sparse on the ground here.

This --^ There are tons of cars running around with AS installed and we don't see them dead on the road.

While it is possible that AS installs on Nick's 991s may be the root causes, unless we know the answer to question number two, (along with a follow-on question of "does this shop/person leave a trail of dead cars behind them?") speculation that AS installs are the root causes should not be given more weight that other possibilities. Everyone is free to form an opinion or not. I have *no* opinion on Nick's issues.

I do have the opinion that not all AS installers are equal. Furthermore, I have the opinion that many of them are ... less than equal. This however doesn't lead me to conclude that Nick's problems are due to the AS installs.

Back to:
This is my question "#2" above.

As outlined in The Tome a few pages back, I would have let data lead me. If the data point to a location and in that location I find AS stuff, then sure, I'm going to investigate the AS stuff first. If AS stuff gets in the way them I'm going to disconnect, rework, or otherwise get it out of the way. If the data don't give any clue then - at least on a 928 - you often begin by disconnecting things. AS would likely be at or near the top of that list.

That Big Post and follow-on posts outline in general terms the difficulty technicians face in moderns cars where much of the functionality is software controlled, components are connected on a network and where there's little in the way of "design" or "requirements" information made available to them. And, without the PIWIS laptop, for the time being at least, it's effectively impossible to start a bug hunt on the modern cars unless one has the wherewithal to conduct a lengthy non-trivial (as in expensive) program of reverse engineering.

(As an aside, my track record of ferreting-out ridiculous bugs on 928s has everything to do with available reference material from Porsche, independent publications, and rennlist which I have read, pondered, and put into practice. Obviously, being an engineer by education doesn't hurt, but without insight into the systems I'd just be a monkey with a degree poking pins in a voodoo doll swapping out parts until someone's check book was empty. The latter is, of course, a situation that is depressingly all too common and not just with cars.)

If for some reason I was in Hell and the Devil gave me Nick's 991 (either of them) and didn't give me a PIWIS and didn't give me an internet connection (PIWIS needs it and for the shop manuals and other reference material), I'd probably tell the Devil to FO. No point in starting eternity notwithstanding.

We could go on forever speculating on the constraints that factor into Porsche's decisions. I have no insight - probably less than others on this thread - into those processes. There's a power hierarchy with customers and dealer technicians at the bottom, PAG on top, with dealerships and PCNA somewhere in the middle. Ultimately the policies and processes are originated at PAG and driven down the hierarchy. Profit is the strongest motivator and we've ample evidence that Porsche knows how to maximize their profit-to-customer-discontent ratio.
As for 'added electronics' where do you draw the line? On how much random add-on stuff are you willing to expend your company's resources investigating?


First, I don't see folks running from the room and selling their Porsches. I doubt Porsche is getting a 'bum wrap' from Nick's (or anyone's) videos any more or any less than any other car maker. I would bet that if one spent time one could pick a car company at random and find, on the internet, very similar stories about that company. Sell a million of anything and you will have some unhappy customers and evidence of same on the internet.

Second, this old saying applies: You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.

It is inevitable in the conduct of business that you will run across an entity (person, client, company, organization) that you can't please. This might be because, on one extreme, the entity in question by nature can't ever be pleased, or, on the other extreme, that it would cost far too much money to please that entity. For the latter extreme consider: If you run a company with clients in the field, you have (you'd better have!) a Y dollar range you can, for practical purposes, spend on 'field support.' Do you spend 50% of that on one client and leave 50% of your other clients unhappy? Or do you spend 5% on the 'problem' client and the other 95% on the other 99.999% of your clients. Or do you just buy back the product from your 'problem' client? If that's an option.

It's very fair to say you can't answer that question without more details. The devil is in the details. Always.

My *speculation* is that someone or someones at PAG have mounds of data on 'unfindable bugs' and have enacted a policy whereby, depending upon model, after X hours of part swapping, diagnosis, and hair-pulling on an in-warranty Porsche they remove any business process gates from allowing a buy back process to proceed to completion. This policy and the numbers behind it are probably country specific. I do know that, in the past, from time-to-time, PAG has directed a technician to 'remove every computer and send it back to us.' So, from time-to-time, PAG does get interested in actually finding an 'unfindable' bug.

Occam's Razor is the logical principle that the simplest solution is usually correct.

It isn't clear to me where Occam cuts in this context. There are several 'simple solutions.' Aftermarket Stuff is one. Some folks in this thread have offered others. And in the end, lightening does sometimes strike twice in the same spot.

See above.

Thinc2

Hey Nick - Many of us really enjoy your channel and I believe several have benefit greatly from all the info you put out about the 911. I know it certainly helped me when I was deciding about my car, and when I was selecting options.

Where else could I go to see a comparison of the headlights intensity - only on your channel.
Where do we go to understand the historical release cycle - your channel.
Where to get opinions on 14 vs 18 ways, on how the base engine feels versus the S, or just to watch someone chase their car as it rolls out the garage - all just on your channel.

It's been a great journey so far - thanks

PS - if you're going to get an EV, get something interesting - like a Rivian.

Z00mie

I would really like to know what becomes of both the car and its bugs!

motown12

You know he will be checking the rear wiper option. He cracks me up whenever he would bring it up because he know how many people can't stand it He's a good dude and I enjoy his videos.

stout

Indeed, it does. Porsche builds a lot of cars these days—and cars, particularly modern cars, are highly complex. My 991.2 was eventually replaced due to a knocking sound that started at 500~ miles, one they couldn't diagnose or fix despite several attempts. When it comes to my own experiences with the brand, the car was an outlier, coming on the heels of a GT4 that was effectively trouble-free over two~ years and 15,000~ miles. All of my Porsches over the last 30 years have been highly reliable, despite the fact that most were purchased as used cars. It started with a 1973 914 that I still have (now with 250,000 miles and counting) followed by a 1979 911 SC (didn't keep it long, but it was good while I had it) and a 1999 986 that I drove to 100,000 miles (now my brother's with 235,000 miles on original engine/trans). I've never had to rebuild an engine or even open one up, and can only think of one electrical issue (with the 914, the result of a compromised harness).

Then there are all of the PAG and PCNA press cars over the last 20~ years, whether my time in them was short (a track session or a day in the mountains) or longer (1,000-20,000 miles). Among hundreds of cars (cars that are often, sadly, abused by professionals who should know better), I can only think of three real issues: a 987S that let go of its RMS, a 997 GT3 RS with a broken wheel spoke (a journalist took it off track, backwards, and didn't say anything...), and a Panamera that lost its power steering on my watch (victim of a rock or branch that kicked up under the car).

Have been watching Nick's story with interest, as I am somewhat mystified by the fact that lightning struck him twice. We may never know the full story (just as I still don't know the full story on my car), and I am glad he isn't angry at Porsche. I also hope he'll get back into another 911 (or?) at some point...

UPDATE: I decided to order another 991.2 Carrera, and am really glad I did—as it's been at least as reliable as the rest of the Porsches I've had, both new and used. Three years and 22,500 miles in, the only issue so far was minor: The hose from the body to the windshield washer jets on the hood broke and was an easy warranty fix.

gary.lee

He would have fine if he had gotten a GTS with all Alcantara interior.

Keadog

I cherish the PDK T-shirt I purchased from Nick before he pulled them.
It’s hanging on the wall above the car roof in my avatar.

apache2

Excellent analysis! Thanks for taking the time to write this up!

DBH

According to Nick, both of his cars that Porsche bought back were refurbished and sold to buyers in Texas(?).

ICU991812

so two unsuspecting buyers will get a CPO lemon, and probably are either on here, or will be on here soon asking "why is this leaking, why does this smell, why is there smoke..." Porsche really should have just tossed that first one out the window. Something just was not right with that car... I guess after all is said and done, it's still a business and they probably thought it was "owner's fault" that all this happened.

911dude41

Someone will come in an call this an awful, distasteful bump. How dare we? How. Dare. We?

Nick Murray knowingly cheated, scammed Porsche, and PCNA. Nick Murray is not an honorable person. All because of the GTS and how awful, just horrible that POS trim is. It's all the GTS's fault.

snake eyes

So who has one of nicks cars?

Ceepe

how did he scam Porsche? I haven't followed for a while. I will say i had a string of bad Audi's around 2013. People thought I was nuts, but i indeed had a couple lemons in a row. One they replaced along with a cash settlement, two i just ditched. It happens.