991.1s Self Immolation. advice needed.
02-11-2019, 07:33 AM
#46
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Thanks for cheering up. Luckily the fire department is doing an investigation hopefully things will get clear soon. Friends say that i got lucky caught fire on track， this could have happened on public road and cause a even bigger disaster either to me or other cars.
I will keep you guys upated and release more evidence or videos when time is approriate. Hopefully ppl could learn from my accident and avoid such tragic in the future. that would be the whole meaning of the investigation instead of simply blaming anyone for fault.
I will keep you guys upated and release more evidence or videos when time is approriate. Hopefully ppl could learn from my accident and avoid such tragic in the future. that would be the whole meaning of the investigation instead of simply blaming anyone for fault.
Sorry for your loss OP. Yeah someone needs to take up the mantle and look deeper into why this happened. Suspect some type of maintance lapse but indeed as others have said the evidence may have gone up in spoke. 
Get the pros involved (hire your own if needed) and then see what is the cause. In the US, having the car on a race track and out of warranty also would probably limit you some..maybe a lot with Porsche AG unless a major fault like the GT3 engines was at fault. Remember a few Ferrari's burned to the ground a few years ago due to heat shield issues in a similar situation; however the servicing dealership may be where the money is from a responsibility standpoint depending on what you find. Good luck and keep us posted.
Get the pros involved (hire your own if needed) and then see what is the cause. In the US, having the car on a race track and out of warranty also would probably limit you some..maybe a lot with Porsche AG unless a major fault like the GT3 engines was at fault. Remember a few Ferrari's burned to the ground a few years ago due to heat shield issues in a similar situation; however the servicing dealership may be where the money is from a responsibility standpoint depending on what you find. Good luck and keep us posted.
02-11-2019, 10:10 AM
#47
Race Car
Gentlemen, the reason you have a fire extinguisher in your car on a track day is NOT always to put the fire out in your car, it's there to put out the fire in the car in front of you. Experienced track rats and instructors know that, as the "Car Behind" is there in seconds, the corner workers and track emergency vehicles take minutes. I always keep an extinguisher in my cars on track days...used it once back in 2002 on an E36 BMW that had an engine fire from an oil leak at VIR - at the bottom of Esses.. The owner of the car was grateful, it wasn't a big deal and put, out quickly, I think I was out of my car before he was out of his, I was right behind him and saw him smoking out of the front wheel wells.
02-12-2019, 10:38 AM
#48
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Back to the original topic. Summary:
Porsche owner with dealer-only-serviced 911 goes to his very first track day and the car burns to the ground on lap 3. Is this essentially correct?
I've done many dozens of track days over the years. I've seen Green Group (beginner) cars crunched, sticky side up, and Armco scarred.
I've never seen a Green Group Porsche burn to the ground. I would expect that to be reserved for Black and Red groups with the occasional Blue-B-Q. But, I do not recall ever being at a track day where a car caught fire and burned to the ground.
There's the issue of the GT3 bumper. Non-issue unless it was installed in between the last dealer service and the track day.
No way is this anything other than either a product or service defect. Lightning and meteors do strike, but Ockham's Razor applies.
font change is mine ---^
Only in China does the yearly maintenance include cleaning the throttle housing. (I don't know why, I could only speculate.)
Cleaning the throttle housing requires:
- Removing the electric fan assembly
- Removing the tail lights
- Removing the spoiler
- Removing the air cleaner housing - lots of disconnections here
Scheduled maintenance is usually performed by the least-skilled technician at the dealership. (Porsche tech training is expensive. A dealer will want to have some indication of skill and dedication before spending the training money. Techs whose client's Porsches burn to the ground after an oil change (or throttle housing cleaning) won't get sent to Porsche tech training...)
Ockham's Razor points to the service.
Porsche owner with dealer-only-serviced 911 goes to his very first track day and the car burns to the ground on lap 3. Is this essentially correct?
I've done many dozens of track days over the years. I've seen Green Group (beginner) cars crunched, sticky side up, and Armco scarred.
I've never seen a Green Group Porsche burn to the ground. I would expect that to be reserved for Black and Red groups with the occasional Blue-B-Q. But, I do not recall ever being at a track day where a car caught fire and burned to the ground.
There's the issue of the GT3 bumper. Non-issue unless it was installed in between the last dealer service and the track day.
No way is this anything other than either a product or service defect. Lightning and meteors do strike, but Ockham's Razor applies.
Only in China does the yearly maintenance include cleaning the throttle housing. (I don't know why, I could only speculate.)
Cleaning the throttle housing requires:
- Removing the electric fan assembly
- Removing the tail lights
- Removing the spoiler
- Removing the air cleaner housing - lots of disconnections here
Scheduled maintenance is usually performed by the least-skilled technician at the dealership. (Porsche tech training is expensive. A dealer will want to have some indication of skill and dedication before spending the training money. Techs whose client's Porsches burn to the ground after an oil change (or throttle housing cleaning) won't get sent to Porsche tech training...)
Ockham's Razor points to the service.
02-12-2019, 10:58 AM
#49
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Not trying to challenge this, I’m honestly wanting to learn. I consider myself an “experienced track rat” and I would never get out of my car on a hot track unless my car was on fire. I thought that was a tried and true rule. So is that rule suspended when someone else’s car is on fire? I can see where it would be, but that’s not how I’ve been trained. I’d love to provide aid to another driver if I could and was permitted to.
I probably don't recall because whatever was said - if anything - would not have overwritten my rule for that case.
If I'm on the track - anywhere actually - and there's a car, nearby, on fire with the driver still in it, I will get my FE and risk my life to assist the driver. I would wish for no less if places were reversed and I'm not even Niki Lauda.
02-12-2019, 11:34 AM
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Hello Worf,
thanks for the detailed analysis.
1. track length is 2km, i drove for 7 laps, not 3 laps actually. each lap took me around 90 seconds, top speed no more then 120km. it is a small track anyways. so i remembered wrong at first place. only a little over 9 minuts before the accident happened.
2. the bumber had been installed for more then a month, and i have drove for more than 3000km. before getting on the track that day, I drove 60km~ 1 hour from home to track, top speed hit 170kph, so a lot more aggressive then driving on the track that day. before get on the track, i even checked the car.
3. The THROTTLE CLEANING is not a mandatory or from the maitanence book, dealers/technicians recommend more based on profits. I agreed because they recommended very hard. That is what I suspect too, inexperienced technician did not do the job.
4. the first sparkle from rear appeared at the beginning of the straight lane, which is 400meter long. i may have hit full throttle when entering the straight, where the sparkle was first seen. and then the second sparkle of fire at the almost the end of the straight. I wonder if full throttle has anything to do with this.
5. Worf you mentioned the steps for the valve cleaning.
a- Removing the electric fan assembly -- the twin fan on top of the engine right?
b- Removing the tail lights -- removing tail lights will require the removing of the bumper?
c- Removing the spoiler -- i had the oem spoiler , didnt change for GT3 spoiler.
d- Removing the air cleaner housing - lots of disconnections here -- air cleaner housing. which part is this exactly?
a loosen bolt may lead to oil leak, and dropped to header, will likely cause the sparkle/flash of fire. this sounds reasonable. does this theory holds? assuming in the four steps, a-b-c-d, technician didnt torque up correctly some bolt or pipe or connector? (I am a bike rider myself, I have BMW and Yahama bikes, for installation like exhausts and etc, we most times follow mounting instructions and use a toruqe wrench.)
thanks for the detailed analysis.
1. track length is 2km, i drove for 7 laps, not 3 laps actually. each lap took me around 90 seconds, top speed no more then 120km. it is a small track anyways. so i remembered wrong at first place. only a little over 9 minuts before the accident happened.
2. the bumber had been installed for more then a month, and i have drove for more than 3000km. before getting on the track that day, I drove 60km~ 1 hour from home to track, top speed hit 170kph, so a lot more aggressive then driving on the track that day. before get on the track, i even checked the car.
3. The THROTTLE CLEANING is not a mandatory or from the maitanence book, dealers/technicians recommend more based on profits. I agreed because they recommended very hard. That is what I suspect too, inexperienced technician did not do the job.
4. the first sparkle from rear appeared at the beginning of the straight lane, which is 400meter long. i may have hit full throttle when entering the straight, where the sparkle was first seen. and then the second sparkle of fire at the almost the end of the straight. I wonder if full throttle has anything to do with this.
5. Worf you mentioned the steps for the valve cleaning.
a- Removing the electric fan assembly -- the twin fan on top of the engine right?
b- Removing the tail lights -- removing tail lights will require the removing of the bumper?
c- Removing the spoiler -- i had the oem spoiler , didnt change for GT3 spoiler.
d- Removing the air cleaner housing - lots of disconnections here -- air cleaner housing. which part is this exactly?
a loosen bolt may lead to oil leak, and dropped to header, will likely cause the sparkle/flash of fire. this sounds reasonable. does this theory holds? assuming in the four steps, a-b-c-d, technician didnt torque up correctly some bolt or pipe or connector? (I am a bike rider myself, I have BMW and Yahama bikes, for installation like exhausts and etc, we most times follow mounting instructions and use a toruqe wrench.)
02-12-2019, 11:06 PM
#51
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I don't recall being specifically trained on what to do when you see another car on the track and on fire.
I probably don't recall because whatever was said - if anything - would not have overwritten my rule for that case.
If I'm on the track - anywhere actually - and there's a car, nearby, on fire with the driver still in it, I will get my FE and risk my life to assist the driver. I would wish for no less if places were reversed and I'm not even Niki Lauda.
I probably don't recall because whatever was said - if anything - would not have overwritten my rule for that case.
If I'm on the track - anywhere actually - and there's a car, nearby, on fire with the driver still in it, I will get my FE and risk my life to assist the driver. I would wish for no less if places were reversed and I'm not even Niki Lauda.
But like I have said before, I have concerns about the level of track-side staffing for many DE events, and for practice or test and tune days. When I raced in SCCA and PCA events, operating standards required multiple licensed F&C workers at every station, with personal protective gear as well as full size fire extinguishers, plus rescue crews on trucks with more safety gear, sitting with engines idling. With those resources, drivers should not expect to stop spontaneously and join in the rescue efforts.
02-18-2019, 04:37 PM
#52
Racer
Our opinion of a strong possibility; on 991's, we've seen people put a rag under the oil filter housing when taking the filter out and forget to take the rag back out after doing the filter change. The oil-soaked rag can then go up in flames when components start getting very hot in there.
02-19-2019, 11:27 AM
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Thanks for the tip. that is one possiblity .sadly the dealer didnt store the surveilence video for that oil change service.
now we can only rely on whats available, wreckages, s.videos to study the cause of fire.
my personal feeling is something wrong with thr maintainence. maybe a rag or glove left inside the engine cabin.
now we can only rely on whats available, wreckages, s.videos to study the cause of fire.
my personal feeling is something wrong with thr maintainence. maybe a rag or glove left inside the engine cabin.
Our opinion of a strong possibility; on 991's, we've seen people put a rag under the oil filter housing when taking the filter out and forget to take the rag back out after doing the filter change. The oil-soaked rag can then go up in flames when components start getting very hot in there.
02-19-2019, 12:24 PM
#54
Racer
Thanks for the tip. that is one possiblity .sadly the dealer didnt store the surveilence video for that oil change service.
now we can only rely on whats available, wreckages, s.videos to study the cause of fire.
my personal feeling is something wrong with thr maintainence. maybe a rag or glove left inside the engine cabin.
now we can only rely on whats available, wreckages, s.videos to study the cause of fire.
my personal feeling is something wrong with thr maintainence. maybe a rag or glove left inside the engine cabin.
02-19-2019, 01:21 PM
#56
Race Car
I don't recall being specifically trained on what to do when you see another car on the track and on fire.
I probably don't recall because whatever was said - if anything - would not have overwritten my rule for that case.
If I'm on the track - anywhere actually - and there's a car, nearby, on fire with the driver still in it, I will get my FE and risk my life to assist the driver. I would wish for no less if places were reversed and I'm not even Niki Lauda.
I probably don't recall because whatever was said - if anything - would not have overwritten my rule for that case.
If I'm on the track - anywhere actually - and there's a car, nearby, on fire with the driver still in it, I will get my FE and risk my life to assist the driver. I would wish for no less if places were reversed and I'm not even Niki Lauda.
