not liking Michelin Pilot Sport 4S - what's going on?
01-20-2019, 02:48 PM
#1
not liking Michelin Pilot Sport 4S - what's going on?
The rear P Zeros tires wore out after less than 15k miles of use on my 2017 C4S, so I replaced them with Michelin Pilot Sport 4S (N0 spec). A set was about $1600 out the door. I've had good experience with PSS in previous cars and 4S is supposed to be an improvement so I had high expectations. The worn P Zero's handled poorly in wet or cold conditions, but I had no complaints about warm dry handling, ride, noise, etc.
Experienced installer, good equipment, and the tires balanced well. Went with door sticker 35 PSI front and 45 PSI rear cold. Initial impressions with the tires not broken in:
- Louder (including impacts)
- A bit vague on center
- Harsher ride when hot and less road feel
- Responsive to inputs and corner well when pushed
After 2k miles and plenty of spirited driving, the tires should be broken in. They got a little more accurate, but still a bit 'wandering' going straight especially at higher speeds. Pushing through corners is similar as P Zeros, but I don't drive 'at the limit' at public roads. The ride is firmer when they're hot and they are louder than the P Zeros over smooth pavement - they have a 'whirling' sound the P Zero's didn't. A DB meter might say they're quieter overall, but the high pitched character sounds are more noticeable than white noise. On rougher surfaces, the P Zero's followed imperfections and glued the road more, but the PS4S seem to float over more.
P Zero's slipped in wet conditions a lot (even with AWD), but the PS4S seems to handle wet just a good as dry. They're much better in cold too. I think they are more noisy in the wet though.
My one gripe is the handling is more vague going straight and this gets worse at higher speed. Sometimes it feels disconnected and artificial as it the tires want to go where they want to go rather than where I'm pointing them. Its not completely horrible, but its bad enough for me to question the alignment. The car was aligned 6 months ago and the only thing that changed was the tires. Wear on the P Zeros was even (maybe a little more on inside than outside). I was hoping that break in would be the solution, but that hasn't fixed it. It feels like the tires should have less PSI/ be softer for more grip and road feel, but doing this just going make them more sloppy.
To be fair, I am using summer tires in winter, but the temperature here has been 40-60 lately. The P Zeros were primarily used when it was even warmer so I'm starting to think maybe that's the problem. Perhaps 70F+ is ideal, but that isn't really a fix I'd accept.
I'm hoping things improve in a few months with more wear and warmer temps, but at this point I'm regretting switching to PS4S. Starting to wonder if all the 'media praise' is from 'race track testing' that is irrelevant to day-to-day use. Seems like a better lap time or braking distance is what's considered best. I know its subjective, but in normal driving P Zero's 'felt better' at the cost of quicker wear and worse wet performance. Maybe PS4S shines in aggressive cornering where perhaps P Zeros might fall short...Don't know because I don't race. I want a tire that functions well and more wandering handling on center is unacceptable no matter how hard you can corner because most time is spend driving straight. I did some research and found a few that noted that the PS4S didn't track well when not thrashed yet they said it was at speeds 'people wouldn't notice' so maybe i'm not crazy. Everyone else seems to be jumping on the 'its tire gold standard' marketing.
Everyone is praising the PS4S so whats wrong with mine? I was expecting PSS and IDK what I got. I'm going to get alignment checked...
Experienced installer, good equipment, and the tires balanced well. Went with door sticker 35 PSI front and 45 PSI rear cold. Initial impressions with the tires not broken in:
- Louder (including impacts)
- A bit vague on center
- Harsher ride when hot and less road feel
- Responsive to inputs and corner well when pushed
After 2k miles and plenty of spirited driving, the tires should be broken in. They got a little more accurate, but still a bit 'wandering' going straight especially at higher speeds. Pushing through corners is similar as P Zeros, but I don't drive 'at the limit' at public roads. The ride is firmer when they're hot and they are louder than the P Zeros over smooth pavement - they have a 'whirling' sound the P Zero's didn't. A DB meter might say they're quieter overall, but the high pitched character sounds are more noticeable than white noise. On rougher surfaces, the P Zero's followed imperfections and glued the road more, but the PS4S seem to float over more.
P Zero's slipped in wet conditions a lot (even with AWD), but the PS4S seems to handle wet just a good as dry. They're much better in cold too. I think they are more noisy in the wet though.
My one gripe is the handling is more vague going straight and this gets worse at higher speed. Sometimes it feels disconnected and artificial as it the tires want to go where they want to go rather than where I'm pointing them. Its not completely horrible, but its bad enough for me to question the alignment. The car was aligned 6 months ago and the only thing that changed was the tires. Wear on the P Zeros was even (maybe a little more on inside than outside). I was hoping that break in would be the solution, but that hasn't fixed it. It feels like the tires should have less PSI/ be softer for more grip and road feel, but doing this just going make them more sloppy.
To be fair, I am using summer tires in winter, but the temperature here has been 40-60 lately. The P Zeros were primarily used when it was even warmer so I'm starting to think maybe that's the problem. Perhaps 70F+ is ideal, but that isn't really a fix I'd accept.
I'm hoping things improve in a few months with more wear and warmer temps, but at this point I'm regretting switching to PS4S. Starting to wonder if all the 'media praise' is from 'race track testing' that is irrelevant to day-to-day use. Seems like a better lap time or braking distance is what's considered best. I know its subjective, but in normal driving P Zero's 'felt better' at the cost of quicker wear and worse wet performance. Maybe PS4S shines in aggressive cornering where perhaps P Zeros might fall short...Don't know because I don't race. I want a tire that functions well and more wandering handling on center is unacceptable no matter how hard you can corner because most time is spend driving straight. I did some research and found a few that noted that the PS4S didn't track well when not thrashed yet they said it was at speeds 'people wouldn't notice' so maybe i'm not crazy. Everyone else seems to be jumping on the 'its tire gold standard' marketing.
Everyone is praising the PS4S so whats wrong with mine? I was expecting PSS and IDK what I got. I'm going to get alignment checked...
Last edited by minthral; 01-20-2019 at 06:00 PM. Reason: grammar
01-20-2019, 02:56 PM
#2
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In for responses... I'm wanting some 4S's when my 2S's wear out.
Hoping it's an alignment issue for you instead of the tires.
Hoping it's an alignment issue for you instead of the tires.
01-20-2019, 02:58 PM
#3
I have Michelin Pilot Sports 4S on my 981 and I too think that the Super Sports were a much bette tirer. I feel like the Michelin Pilot Sports 4S flex a bit more when driving the mountain roads whereas the SS were perfect. I don't think that my 4S tries are NO rated as I got them when they first were released. Honestly a bit disappointed.
01-20-2019, 03:24 PM
#4
Instructor
The rear P Zeros tires wore out after less than 15k miles of use on my 2017 C4S, so I replaced them with Michelin Pilot Sport 4S (N0 spec). A set was about $1600 out the door. I've had good experience with PSS in previous cars and 4S is supposed to be an improvement so I had high expectations. The worn P Zero's handled poorly in wet or cold conditions, but I had no complaints about warm dry handling, ride, noise, etc.
Experienced installer, good equipment, and the tires balanced well. Went with door sticker 35 PSI front and 45 PSI rear cold. Initial impressions with the tires not broken in:
- Louder (including impacts)
- A bit vague on center
- Harsher ride when hot and less road feel
- Responsive to inputs and corner well when pushed
After 2k miles and plenty of spirited driving, the tires should be broken in. They got a little more accurate, but still a bit 'wandering' going straight especially at higher speeds. Pushing through corners is similar as P Zeros, but I don't drive 'at the limit' at public roads. The ride is firmer when they're hot and they are louder than the P Zeros over smooth pavement - they have a 'whirling' sound the P Zero's didn't. A DB meter mine say they're quieter overall, but the high pitched character sounds are more noticeable than white noise. On rougher surfaces, the P Zero's followed imperfections and glued the road more, but the PS4S seem to float over more.
P Zero's slipped in wet conditions a lot (even with AWD), but the PS4S seems to handle wet just a good as dry. They're much better in cold too. I think they are more noisy in the wet though.
My mine gripe is the handling is more vague going straight and this gets worse at higher speed. Sometimes it feels disconnected and artificial as it the tires want to go where they want to go rather than where I'm pointing them. Its not completely horrible, but its bad enough for me to question the alignment. The car was aligned 6 months ago and the only thing that changed was the tires. Wear on the P Zeros was event (maybe a little more on inside than outside). I was hoping that break in would be the solution, but that hasn't fixed it. It feels like the tires should have less PSI/ be softer for more grip and road feel, but doing this just just make them more sloppy.
To be fair, I am using summer tires in winter, but the temperature here has been 40-60 lately. The P Zeros were primarily used when it was even warmer so I'm starting to think maybe that's the problem. Perhaps 70F+ is ideal, but that isn't really a fix I'd accept.
I'm hoping things improve in a few months with more wear and warmer temps, but at this point I'm regretting switching to PS4S. Starting to wonder if all the 'media praise' is from 'race track testing' that is irrelevant to day-to-day use. Seems like a better lap time or braking distance is what's driving what best. I know its subjective, but in normal driving P Zero's 'felt better' at the cost of quicker wear and worse wet performance. Maybe PS4S shines in aggressive cornering (loading) where perhaps P Zeros might fall short...Don't know because I don't race. I want a tire that functions well and more wandering handling on center is unacceptable no matter how hard you can corner because most time is spend driving straight. I did some research and found a few that noted that the PS4S didn't track well when not thrashed yet they said it would at speeds 'people wouldn't notice' so maybe i'm not crazy. Everyone else seems to be jumping on the 'its tire gold standard' marketing.
Everyone is praising the PS4S so whats wrong with mine? I was expecting PSS and IDK what I got. I'm going to get alignment checked...
Experienced installer, good equipment, and the tires balanced well. Went with door sticker 35 PSI front and 45 PSI rear cold. Initial impressions with the tires not broken in:
- Louder (including impacts)
- A bit vague on center
- Harsher ride when hot and less road feel
- Responsive to inputs and corner well when pushed
After 2k miles and plenty of spirited driving, the tires should be broken in. They got a little more accurate, but still a bit 'wandering' going straight especially at higher speeds. Pushing through corners is similar as P Zeros, but I don't drive 'at the limit' at public roads. The ride is firmer when they're hot and they are louder than the P Zeros over smooth pavement - they have a 'whirling' sound the P Zero's didn't. A DB meter mine say they're quieter overall, but the high pitched character sounds are more noticeable than white noise. On rougher surfaces, the P Zero's followed imperfections and glued the road more, but the PS4S seem to float over more.
P Zero's slipped in wet conditions a lot (even with AWD), but the PS4S seems to handle wet just a good as dry. They're much better in cold too. I think they are more noisy in the wet though.
My mine gripe is the handling is more vague going straight and this gets worse at higher speed. Sometimes it feels disconnected and artificial as it the tires want to go where they want to go rather than where I'm pointing them. Its not completely horrible, but its bad enough for me to question the alignment. The car was aligned 6 months ago and the only thing that changed was the tires. Wear on the P Zeros was event (maybe a little more on inside than outside). I was hoping that break in would be the solution, but that hasn't fixed it. It feels like the tires should have less PSI/ be softer for more grip and road feel, but doing this just just make them more sloppy.
To be fair, I am using summer tires in winter, but the temperature here has been 40-60 lately. The P Zeros were primarily used when it was even warmer so I'm starting to think maybe that's the problem. Perhaps 70F+ is ideal, but that isn't really a fix I'd accept.
I'm hoping things improve in a few months with more wear and warmer temps, but at this point I'm regretting switching to PS4S. Starting to wonder if all the 'media praise' is from 'race track testing' that is irrelevant to day-to-day use. Seems like a better lap time or braking distance is what's driving what best. I know its subjective, but in normal driving P Zero's 'felt better' at the cost of quicker wear and worse wet performance. Maybe PS4S shines in aggressive cornering (loading) where perhaps P Zeros might fall short...Don't know because I don't race. I want a tire that functions well and more wandering handling on center is unacceptable no matter how hard you can corner because most time is spend driving straight. I did some research and found a few that noted that the PS4S didn't track well when not thrashed yet they said it would at speeds 'people wouldn't notice' so maybe i'm not crazy. Everyone else seems to be jumping on the 'its tire gold standard' marketing.
Everyone is praising the PS4S so whats wrong with mine? I was expecting PSS and IDK what I got. I'm going to get alignment checked...
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01-20-2019, 03:27 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Agreed. Drop your tire pressures.
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Nm2far (12-25-2019)
01-20-2019, 04:14 PM
#8
I'll try seeing how low I can drop the PSI. I messed around plenty with P Zero's and they were sloppy and slow to respond with lower pressure which is what I find typical with tires. Dropping PSI was my first test and PS4S and had similar result, but with colder and variable temps, I quickly set it back to sticker. For example its going from 55F down to 15F tonight here.
Manual says for 4S...
Standard
31/39 partly load
34/44 fully load
Comfort
29/33 partly load
31/39 fully load
I assume full load car holding weight? Meaning the more weight on the car the higher the PSI should be? Looks like heavier cars (PDK, AWD) call for more PSI.
Also it mentions that the PSI is set at 68F/20C meaning if you set it at 40F or lower to sticker PSI, that's even worse? According to the logic tire pressure would be really low in cold temps if you went with comfort (26 or lower front, which I know will be really sloppy).
I'm confused because my sticker says 35/45, but that's not even in the manual. If anything its 34/44 max. Nonetheless, according to the manual it does seem mine is set too high. Maybe this works better for P Zeros and PS4S works best with lower PSI.
http://www.porscheownersmanuals.com/...Technical-data
Manual says for 4S...
Standard
31/39 partly load
34/44 fully load
Comfort
29/33 partly load
31/39 fully load
I assume full load car holding weight? Meaning the more weight on the car the higher the PSI should be? Looks like heavier cars (PDK, AWD) call for more PSI.
Also it mentions that the PSI is set at 68F/20C meaning if you set it at 40F or lower to sticker PSI, that's even worse? According to the logic tire pressure would be really low in cold temps if you went with comfort (26 or lower front, which I know will be really sloppy).
I'm confused because my sticker says 35/45, but that's not even in the manual. If anything its 34/44 max. Nonetheless, according to the manual it does seem mine is set too high. Maybe this works better for P Zeros and PS4S works best with lower PSI.
http://www.porscheownersmanuals.com/...Technical-data
01-20-2019, 04:18 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
As others have said; your tire pressures are too high.
01-20-2019, 04:34 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
01-20-2019, 05:19 PM
#11
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01-20-2019, 05:51 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
Yeah, 45 PSI is crazy high. Out of laziness I usually leave all four of mine set to 35.
I suspect the door sticker is some kind of EPA gamesmanship. The fuel economy is rated at the stated tire pressures, so they state whatever tire pressures yield the best mileage at the expense of everything else. You would never want to use those pressures in real life.
That said, it is true that the MPSSes don't have quite the same on-center feel as the PZeros. A small price to pay for their other advantages IMO.
I suspect the door sticker is some kind of EPA gamesmanship. The fuel economy is rated at the stated tire pressures, so they state whatever tire pressures yield the best mileage at the expense of everything else. You would never want to use those pressures in real life.
That said, it is true that the MPSSes don't have quite the same on-center feel as the PZeros. A small price to pay for their other advantages IMO.
01-20-2019, 06:06 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
Not a 991 driver but I saw OP's pressure and immediately thought that has to be way too high......even for a C4S. As others have stated....drop the pressure. I've had PS2's, PSS, and now PS4S.....first 2 on my M3 and 4S on the GT4. Michelin keeps improving this tire with every new launch........Phil
01-20-2019, 06:28 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
Definitely go down in pressure. I love the 4S over the Pzeros. I run 30 or 32 front and 34 rears. Total difference in driving experience at the lower pressures. Grip and noise level improve.
01-20-2019, 06:30 PM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Do you still have p zeros on the front?