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That was my original estimate based on the road pull data from -12 data. I thought it was a bit odd the torque curve started going back up at the high rpms, but I thought maybe it was due to the colder ambient temps of only 50F. The ICs were also not heat soaked with IATs only being 75F. But with the additional -17 data from after the Protune which represents more of an expected curve, I'm guessing on the -12 run, it might have gotten hit by a tailwind or a downhill section. I also estimated that the GTS turbos are good for 560whp on 93 octane, so the 600whp was above that. Again, I thought maybe the colder air, but likely not as the -17 data was in nearly identical temperatures with an ambient of 48F, though the ICs were heat soaked resulting in IATs of about 95F.
Lots of assumptions in my calculations and there's a lot of scatter in the data where I draw in a line. Basically like smoothing function on a dyno chart. Not to mention, the data in the datalog is not exactly clean and requires some processing due to lack of sample rate and accuracy. I calculated torque and power just using physics, F = ma. Force of drag comes from coefficient of drag, frontal area, air density, and speed. cD is only 2 significant digits, I found the number for frontal area which was only two decimal places, assumption on air density, assumption on vehicle mass (car options, fuel level, driver weight being variables). Speed has to be calculated from tire size and gear ratios. So there's error in actual tire diameter (air pressure being a variable affecting it along with manufacturing accuracy vs tire size specification) So yeah, lots of sources of error, but it gives approximate values (maybe +/- 7% give or take) and shape of the curves. I figure 550whp estimate based on the -17 data is closer to actual. Absolute numbers are like whatever, but there is no debate on the massive mid-range gains from the Protune. I figure the car will trap in the low 130mph range. Maybe 132-133mph?
My GTS trapped 128 on Stage 1 93. Dyno showed 470whp on a MAHA dyno.
560whp and more under the curve should get you into the low to mid 130's as mentioned.
We need real world data and statistics on this so called "pro tune".. Looks very underwhelming to me and overall a disappointment.
Forget about the numbers, look at the curves. The stage 1 93 looks much smoother.
My GTS trapped 128 on Stage 1 93. Dyno showed 470whp on a MAHA dyno.
560whp and more under the curve should get you into the low to mid 130's as mentioned.
We need real world data and statistics on this so called "pro tune".. Looks very underwhelming to me and overall a disappointment.
Forget about the numbers, look at the curves. The stage 1 93 looks much smoother.
Tabletop. I have had a lot of cars custom tuned over the years. The biggest lesson I learnt was Tabletop. For those that don't know that expression, it means the Power curve travels up to around peak power and then is flat all the way to redline. In my experience, cars that have a table top shaped curves win real world races. Time and time again, I see Dyno queen cars with 100 and even 200 HP more, get their *** handed to them by a car that has a table top curve. Why, because the tabletop curve has reached max power a long way down the power curve before the other one has a chance to get going.
I'll give an example. Car A reaches 500 HP at the wheels from 3,500 rpm all the way to redline at 7,500rpm. Car B touts 700 rwhp. He believes his car is much faster as he has 700Hp. They race and Car A wins, and car B scratches his head. Car B has 150 Hp at 3,500 rpm. So at 3,500 rpm you have a 500Hp car vs a 150Hp car. Then at 4,500 rpm Car B has 250Hp vs Car A at 500Hp. At 5,500 Rpm Car B now has 500 Hp as does Car A.
Car A is so far in front now, that it doesn't really matter. But At 6,000 Rpm Car B has 600Hp and Car A only has 500Hp. Then at 7,000 Rpm Car B touches 700 Hp and then dies to redline.
I'll give a different example of two identical cars. BMW M4's. One was an OTS map that produced a peaky 450 HP. The other one was tuned by a world class guy that writes tunes for race teams. It made 420 HP.
The 420 Hp destroyed the 450 Hp car. The 420 Hp car felt like it had 700 Hp. Why? Tabletop. So many cars have a high dyno number for less than 500 rpm of their rev range. The trick is to have Max power for a 3,000 rpm rev range.
My point is, the Pro-tune is just the early stages and beginning of a much nicer tune. COBB spent 2 hours on it. It takes a lo longer to start refining and making loads of small changes to get a nice table top.
At the end of the day, everyone wants something different. Some want dyno queen bragging rights that their car makes the most power on a dyno. That doesn't interest me. I prefer Car A, that only has 500 Hp and hands everyone their ***. It is very early days. Stage 2 OTS is barely beginning. We are all impatient. But give it another twelve months and you will see great things from this platform. Stage 3 and Pro-Tunes and then Up graded turbo's stage 4.
Here is a good example of a Table top tune. The Green was stock. Whilst if you just looked at the Max power 290 KW vs 311KW you would be disappointed with the custom tune. But it was a completely different car after the tune. It may only have had 21 KW at peak, but it had almost 100 Kw more at 4,000 rpm.
Pulling the string. I know we have some strange terms. Imagine your dyno line is a string. I would like to see someone "Pull the string" so the shape changes to a Tabletop. Capiche?
This is what I will spend many months refining to achieve. When of course we finally get our hands on Pro-Tune.
This is what is impressive about the Pro-tune on PTS-BRG car. The early beginnings of a table top tune. Pretty flat across the top from 5,000 to 6,500.
Thanks for putting up with the last minute scheduling and a nearly cross country hike to make this all come together. For the record- I'd kept the color of your car on the DL from Mitch until he saw it as he's a huge green fan and is dying to find a 991.1 GT3 in any of the PTS dark/medium greens. Sorry for the heart-breaker Mustang dyno but now you have first hand experience in why we use percentage gains, which should be able to be replicated on any dyno before/after, instead of actual WHP/TQ gains, in all of our marketing materials. In the end, it's not the final number a particular dyno spits out, but the curve and the percentage gains that make all the difference.
Originally Posted by ClassJ
Any update from Cobb on whether a direct OBD flash without pulling the ECU for unlock could be technically feasible in the future?
Originally Posted by PTS-BRG
I have no direct word from Cobb, but I have gone on record that it will never happen. I dont believe it's ever going to be possible.
Originally Posted by reacher
It's probably one of those "they won't know if it's possible until they've done it" things. So don't count on it ever happening.
At this point...pretty much this ^^^. The single largest reason for our delayed release of 991.2 Accessport support has zero to do with being able to actually tune the ECUs, it was entirely a matter of breaking the security to allow "front door", aka OBDII flashing, from the get-go. We banged our collective heads against the wall as long as we could, and then some, before we made the (previously) unprecedented company decision to release a tuning solution that did not provide 100% OBDII port support. It was a long fought process and one we're still not "excited" about but we'll continue to investigate the possibility of being able to front door flash from the onset. However, there is no timetable and no guarantee it will ever happen.
Originally Posted by 4 Point 0
Sweet. This was there last communication.
Stage 2 OTS maps are still penciled in for release this week. However, another large, long time coming (and yes, that's my nice way of saying it's late too), COBB company release may soak up the majority of our marketing resources forcing the Stage 2 OTS release to next week before they're officially in firmware. If any of you are ready to rip chunks of skin from your body from all the waiting-itching, I'm happy to email you copies of the Stg 2 OTS maps ahead of time, just PM me and we'll go from there.
AccessTuner Pro support for both the POR11 (Base/S/GTS) and POR12 (Turbo) part numbers is still on schedule for a release before or right around the end of this month. We're doing some final soak testing of the software, cleaning up some cosmetics, and finalizing some documentation over the next few weeks. POR10 (718) customers will have to wait a few extra weeks though as we don't anticipate having that portion complete until mid to late February.
. If any of you are ready to rip chunks of skin from your body from all the waiting-itching, I'm happy to email you copies of the Stg 2 OTS maps ahead of time, just PM me and we'll go from there.
Thanks!
~~~~Jared
YES.... PM Sent. Standing by. I will litterally load thsi on now and go for a drive. hahahaha.
I'm back. Everyone else is most likely in bed. Its lunchtime here.
So I loaded it up. Drove about 30 miles, going up and down the gears, and gave it on good squirt in 4th and 5th. Parked the car, let it sit for an hour. Got back in drive another 3 miles and then did two logs.
First off, it feels smoother and more refined. However, the car is louder. The tune definitely knows it has sports cats now or visa versa. I was hard under it and backed off in fourth and for the first time I heard the wastegate flutter from inside the car. People had said they heard it outside, but I have never heard it from inside. That was a first. Smooth is fast, so it can be a little deceptive. It has more grunt around 4,000 rpm. Because it pulls so hard there, it feels like it doesn't have enough top end. But again, smooth is fast. The raw edges have been smoothed out. I won't be able to say how much faster it really is until I get to the track. Also at the track, it will benefit more from some nicer blends.
Its a nice incremental step. There is always more to be done. Thanks COBB, love your work.
The equation above applies to 991 series GT cars, 991 series turbocharged cars and 718 series turbocharged car (ideally PDK) and tuned variants thereof.
So for a car that hits 128
HP(afw) = (14.92 x 128) - 1397
HP(afw) ~ 513 (or ~ 443 +/- 8RWHP)
OK here are some results from online calculators - 546HP, 546HP, 450HP, 539HP, 470HP, 547HP (and 470RWHP), 540HP and the ridiculous 682HP and 568RWHP.
On a MAHA the WHP trace is blue, the towing losses trace is green......for some reason these are excluded from your graph. You might want to ask why this is the case given the peak WHP as stated in the data box is 447.7 (also in blue to be consistent with the normal blue trace).
I'm back. Everyone else is most likely in bed. Its lunchtime here.
So I loaded it up. Drove about 30 miles, going up and down the gears, and gave it on good squirt in 4th and 5th. Parked the car, let it sit for an hour. Got back in drive another 3 miles and then did two logs.
First off, it feels smoother and more refined. However, the car is louder. The tune definitely knows it has sports cats now or visa versa. I was hard under it and backed off in fourth and for the first time I heard the wastegate flutter from inside the car. People had said they heard it outside, but I have never heard it from inside. That was a first. Smooth is fast, so it can be a little deceptive. It has more grunt around 4,000 rpm. Because it pulls so hard there, it feels like it doesn't have enough top end. But again, smooth is fast. The raw edges have been smoothed out. I won't be able to say how much faster it really is until I get to the track. Also at the track, it will benefit more from some nicer blends.
Its a nice incremental step. There is always more to be done. Thanks COBB, love your work.
Mitch also went into some technical stuff that he discovered and incorporated into the Pro tune but, it escapes me as to what it was and since he basically said that he discovered it, I wouldn't want to disclose it even if I could remember There are a few neat little tricks and features Cobb is working on that I received. I will ask them if I can comment about them here and if so I will let you know about that later in the thread.
Any more on this?
Originally Posted by COBB Tuning
AccessTuner Pro support for both the POR11 (Base/S/GTS) part numbers is still on schedule for a release before or right around the end of this month. We're doing some final soak testing of the software, cleaning up some cosmetics, and finalizing some documentation over the next few weeks.
Thanks!
~~~~Jared
Hi Jared, can you or Mitch comment on the discoveries?
Great job PTS on all of the info. I couldn't agree with you more on staying away from that tool sticky and his dying little website that no one uses... I just installed the AMS Intercoolers and also have the Soul Catless DP's and bmc filter with the Hydra Tune. Ready for bigger turbos now but waiting on Pure to finish theirs's soon so I can compare to the others already out there.. With what I have currently I can just barely edge out a z06 with a few bolt on's from a roll..
01-07-2019, 05:47 PM
There are a few neat little tricks and features Cobb is working on that I received. I will ask them if I can comment about them here and if so I will let you know about that later in the thread.
