911 Carrera T vs 718 Cayman GTS
02-15-2019, 11:01 PM
#91
Well, we have a 991.2 C2S manual with all of the available sport options that also come on the T, and aside from the ~20 lbs of weight saving glass, ours is a "T" with more power. I suppose reasonable people can disagree, but the 991.2 feels like exactly what it is: a sporty 911, both in C2S and T trim. The GT4 feels like exactly what it is: a precise, more aggressive, more focused car. The GT4 isn't the end-all/be-all; for that matter, neither is the GT3, or even the RS. They are all road-going trackable cars, not race cars. The T is a great car, but only a fool would trade in a used C2S for a new T with the same options, unless there was some other mitigating factor (color?).
After all of this "T" talk, I went and drove a yellow one at the local dealership. It feels exactly like my 991.2, but with less power. There is nothing wrong with it, but what makes a "T" so special when you can get the exact same car in a 991.2 that has 420hp instead of 370? In this situation, how is "more" actually "less"? Even the sales guy said "yeah, the T is a step down from a manual C2S with RAS. I will take 50 horses over 20lbs of weight savings any day". Others may opt for the 20lbs weight savings, and that is OK too.
RE: GT4 vs "T": the GT4 is much more alive and exciting to drive. The T would be faster at Nurburgring (more torque and useable power band). GT4 transmission kicks the snot out of the 7MT 991 tranny. For me, the T and C2S are both great cars: super high performing sportscars/touring combo cars. The GT4 is more focused, alive, and fun. 50mph can feel fun the GT4: it feels like 15mph in either of the 911s.
In summary; to say "I prefer one over the other" is reasonable (I prefer to drive the GT4 but appreciate the practicality of the 911, and if we could only have one, it would probably be the latter). To say "one is better than the other" gets a failing grade; it simply isn't a logical, reasoned conclusion.
After all of this "T" talk, I went and drove a yellow one at the local dealership. It feels exactly like my 991.2, but with less power. There is nothing wrong with it, but what makes a "T" so special when you can get the exact same car in a 991.2 that has 420hp instead of 370? In this situation, how is "more" actually "less"? Even the sales guy said "yeah, the T is a step down from a manual C2S with RAS. I will take 50 horses over 20lbs of weight savings any day". Others may opt for the 20lbs weight savings, and that is OK too.
RE: GT4 vs "T": the GT4 is much more alive and exciting to drive. The T would be faster at Nurburgring (more torque and useable power band). GT4 transmission kicks the snot out of the 7MT 991 tranny. For me, the T and C2S are both great cars: super high performing sportscars/touring combo cars. The GT4 is more focused, alive, and fun. 50mph can feel fun the GT4: it feels like 15mph in either of the 911s.
In summary; to say "I prefer one over the other" is reasonable (I prefer to drive the GT4 but appreciate the practicality of the 911, and if we could only have one, it would probably be the latter). To say "one is better than the other" gets a failing grade; it simply isn't a logical, reasoned conclusion.
First and foremost these are all great cars - we are spoilt for choice.
Specifically on the T, I spent a day sometime ago with a friend that traded a GT3 for the T - we swapped cars for about 3 hours and I came to the conclusion the T was exactly what was on the label - a base with some of the performance fruit from the S. The 991.2GTS (my only direct comparitor) is more dialled in and has explosive performance which doesn't trail off - this is very distinct.
The T is the base that should have been offered from the get go - but unfortunately thats not how Porsche work, they really want to sell optioned Ss and above for the greater margins. They then release the base as a price point car to suck up that niche. Eventually they end with a special be it a black or a T (a much better offering than the black) to soak up the last residual niche and then release a new model.
The newer model being more dialled in again - thats the Porsche MO
In terms of the Cayman I also have a 981 GTS (with all the performance options) which is a keeper - it has a light, nimble feel that no 991 can match. The GT4 brake, gear box and steering feel is better than anything in the 991 range other than the GT3 and above.
02-15-2019, 11:04 PM
#92
Interesting analysis (conclusion) and while I can appreciate your viewpoint and your logic of more power = more fun, I have to respectfully disagree. Why? It's missing data to complete the picture. I came out of the world of a 2008 TT Cab with 480 HP into a far more fun car, the 320 HP Boxster Spyder. If you spend some time reading through a lot of the threads you'll see that the smaller 3.0 engine of the T is more alive, more responsive and with literally zero turbo lag makes it WAY more fun. It, and the GT3 4.0, are the sweethearts of the current engines. So while the S does have more power, as does a 991.2 GTS that I have spend a good hour in, it has more weight and it, with its large engine (longer stroke length?) has brute strength with a turbo lag, but not the nimble responsiveness of the T. Did I buy the GTS? Illogically, no. On the contrary I started to build a T.
With respect, from a fool that is going into the T pool, not the C2S pool (where angels tread).
P.s. Let's face it - this is another obvious case of Gorilla Glass, cloth door pulls, RAS and LWBS, cool badging and wheels and mirrors "envy". Put yourself out of your misery - just sell your C2S and get a T! And get a new sales rep!
With respect, from a fool that is going into the T pool, not the C2S pool (where angels tread).
P.s. Let's face it - this is another obvious case of Gorilla Glass, cloth door pulls, RAS and LWBS, cool badging and wheels and mirrors "envy". Put yourself out of your misery - just sell your C2S and get a T! And get a new sales rep!
I own a GTS.. It does not have brute force in stock form. It does not have a longer stroke length. In it's own rev range. It's responsiveness is the same, if not better than a T. People who buy a GTS are not chasing HP figures. There are several other differences that factor in. Body being a major one.
The Base model and the T have the same "engine" (which you know nothing about) that you speak of. It's no more nimble or responsive than a cheaper base model. The difference is in the turbochargers in all the variants.
PS: This is another obvious case of buying into Porsche's marketing hype. You've exposed yourself.
02-15-2019, 11:21 PM
#93
Rennlist Member
This is going to hurt typing this... You have no clue what you are talking about. You are misinformed completely. Look up specs and find some reading material. Watch youtube videos. Educate yourself.
I own a GTS.. It does not have brute force in stock form. It does not have a longer stroke length. In it's own rev range. It's responsiveness is the same, if not better than a T. People who buy a GTS are not chasing HP figures. There are several other differences that factor in. Body being a major one.
The Base model and the T have the same "engine" (which you know nothing about) that you speak of. It's no more nimble or responsive than a cheaper base model. The difference is in the turbochargers in all the variants.
PS: This is another obvious case of buying into Porsche's marketing hype. You've exposed yourself.
I own a GTS.. It does not have brute force in stock form. It does not have a longer stroke length. In it's own rev range. It's responsiveness is the same, if not better than a T. People who buy a GTS are not chasing HP figures. There are several other differences that factor in. Body being a major one.
The Base model and the T have the same "engine" (which you know nothing about) that you speak of. It's no more nimble or responsive than a cheaper base model. The difference is in the turbochargers in all the variants.
PS: This is another obvious case of buying into Porsche's marketing hype. You've exposed yourself.
02-16-2019, 02:19 AM
#94
Burning Brakes
There is nothing not T about that build. The T can be anything you want it to be. And white IS the fastest, so well done there too. Good for you and psyched for you, mano!
As for some of the hater crapola that has emerged again here, all I can say is it was a nice few weeks without it.
For me, it's come down to this, either you get the T or you don't. It's the quicker spooling engine, it's the reduced gearing, it's the bespoke interior/agate/titanium, it's the clear glass and reduced weight, it's the magic of sum greater than the parts. You can choose to love it or choose a different path. If you're buying a car just for the track or to absolutely dominate between lights, then the unmodified T is the wrong car. Outside of that I, and a whole lot of other peeps, believe it's about perfect. Lucky us.
ß
As for some of the hater crapola that has emerged again here, all I can say is it was a nice few weeks without it.
For me, it's come down to this, either you get the T or you don't. It's the quicker spooling engine, it's the reduced gearing, it's the bespoke interior/agate/titanium, it's the clear glass and reduced weight, it's the magic of sum greater than the parts. You can choose to love it or choose a different path. If you're buying a car just for the track or to absolutely dominate between lights, then the unmodified T is the wrong car. Outside of that I, and a whole lot of other peeps, believe it's about perfect. Lucky us.
ß
02-16-2019, 11:27 AM
#95
Rennlist Member
02-16-2019, 11:40 AM
#96
The Carrera T has received so much praise, you have to expect that there are going to be some who are bitter and fail to manage their hurt feelings.
02-16-2019, 12:04 PM
#97
Rennlist Member
It's a shame but there are one or two guys here who are just cancers on this forum. I can only imagine how empty and miserable their lives are. Their egos are so delicate and fragile that if a car they don't own gets love, they immediately jump from the bushes to spread hate and push their personal agendas. But the good news is, this forum has an IGNORE LIST option. The Carrera T has received so much praise, you have to expect that there are going to be some who are bitter and fail to manage their hurt feelings.
The Carrera T has received so much praise, you have to expect that there are going to be some who are bitter and fail to manage their hurt feelings.
02-16-2019, 12:28 PM
#98
http://www.porsche-code.com/PKHR8QW7
Some will say it's a fat build. Others will say it doesnt follow the T ethos. A few will criticize the brakes or seats.
All I know is I'm stoked to have had the chance to order and build the car that I want, and cant wait for some weekend cruises with the wife and dogs.
Some will say it's a fat build. Others will say it doesnt follow the T ethos. A few will criticize the brakes or seats.
All I know is I'm stoked to have had the chance to order and build the car that I want, and cant wait for some weekend cruises with the wife and dogs.
02-16-2019, 04:26 PM
#100
I’m new to Porsche. But not to high performance cars.
I can’t talk about all the drama that is always inevitable.
But i I can say for sure, your build seems awesome. I just got done with the process. It’s shockingly difficult.
You did super. What a great car you are getting.
Now the tougher part.
The waiting.
I can’t talk about all the drama that is always inevitable.
But i I can say for sure, your build seems awesome. I just got done with the process. It’s shockingly difficult.
You did super. What a great car you are getting.
Now the tougher part.
The waiting.
02-16-2019, 06:47 PM
#101
Racer
Thread Starter
I genuinely appreciate all of the kudos. This is my first Porsche, and honestly, I think the coolest part about it is for the first time in my life I had the opportunity to order exactly what I wanted vs picking off a dealer lot; I think that's pretty neat.
I am 31 years old, first in my family to go to college, and have been working my butt off since I was 14 to fulfill my addiction to everything with an engine and wheels.
I've had a lifted and modified jeep wrangler since the day I got my license: '03, '06, '13, and now a '18. But of course I like fast cars too...I started out a VW guy, mk4 20th AE with a KO4 swap, and then a mk4 R32. Spent some time with a 400hp STI, and then a FBO R35 GTR. Missed having a manual transmission, which brought me to a supercharged GM product or two (never again). My brother and I recently began a track build put of a R53 Mini Cooper S. Mix in a bunch of dirtbikes, couple Harleys, and a Ducati, and you're up to speed.
To this day, the most FUN car I have owned was the damn 2003 VW GTI. Modded it put about 250hp to the wheels, with suspension and brake upgrades to match. It was just so simple and engaging to drive, I've regretted selling it for years. Simply, the T was the closest experience to that car, and after a couple of test drives, I knew I had to get one. Not a track car, not another 800hp monster that was unenjoyable on the street, just a car that was somewhat raw and very-much-so a pleasure to drive.
Not sure why I felt the need to share my story, but for me, I got the T. Marketing ploy or not, I connected with it, and got it exactly as I wanted. Nothing but love to everyone out there...if you're active on this forum, you are likely the proud owner of a car you worked hard to get and spoke to you. Cherish that $&!%
I am 31 years old, first in my family to go to college, and have been working my butt off since I was 14 to fulfill my addiction to everything with an engine and wheels.
I've had a lifted and modified jeep wrangler since the day I got my license: '03, '06, '13, and now a '18. But of course I like fast cars too...I started out a VW guy, mk4 20th AE with a KO4 swap, and then a mk4 R32. Spent some time with a 400hp STI, and then a FBO R35 GTR. Missed having a manual transmission, which brought me to a supercharged GM product or two (never again). My brother and I recently began a track build put of a R53 Mini Cooper S. Mix in a bunch of dirtbikes, couple Harleys, and a Ducati, and you're up to speed. To this day, the most FUN car I have owned was the damn 2003 VW GTI. Modded it put about 250hp to the wheels, with suspension and brake upgrades to match. It was just so simple and engaging to drive, I've regretted selling it for years. Simply, the T was the closest experience to that car, and after a couple of test drives, I knew I had to get one. Not a track car, not another 800hp monster that was unenjoyable on the street, just a car that was somewhat raw and very-much-so a pleasure to drive.
Not sure why I felt the need to share my story, but for me, I got the T. Marketing ploy or not, I connected with it, and got it exactly as I wanted. Nothing but love to everyone out there...if you're active on this forum, you are likely the proud owner of a car you worked hard to get and spoke to you. Cherish that $&!%
02-16-2019, 11:07 PM
#102
I genuinely appreciate all of the kudos. This is my first Porsche, and honestly, I think the coolest part about it is for the first time in my life I had the opportunity to order exactly what I wanted vs picking off a dealer lot; I think that's pretty neat.
I am 31 years old, first in my family to go to college, and have been working my butt off since I was 14 to fulfill my addiction to everything with an engine and wheels. I've had a lifted and modified jeep wrangler since the day I got my license: '03, '06, '13, and now a '18. But of course I like fast cars too...I started out a VW guy, mk4 20th AE with a KO4 swap, and then a mk4 R32. Spent some time with a 400hp STI, and then a FBO R35 GTR. Missed having a manual transmission, which brought me to a supercharged GM product or two (never again). My brother and I recently began a track build put of a R53 Mini Cooper S. Mix in a bunch of dirtbikes, couple Harleys, and a Ducati, and you're up to speed.
To this day, the most FUN car I have owned was the damn 2003 VW GTI. Modded it put about 250hp to the wheels, with suspension and brake upgrades to match. It was just so simple and engaging to drive, I've regretted selling it for years. Simply, the T was the closest experience to that car, and after a couple of test drives, I knew I had to get one. Not a track car, not another 800hp monster that was unenjoyable on the street, just a car that was somewhat raw and very-much-so a pleasure to drive.
Not sure why I felt the need to share my story, but for me, I got the T. Marketing ploy or not, I connected with it, and got it exactly as I wanted. Nothing but love to everyone out there...if you're active on this forum, you are likely the proud owner of a car you worked hard to get and spoke to you. Cherish that $&!%
I am 31 years old, first in my family to go to college, and have been working my butt off since I was 14 to fulfill my addiction to everything with an engine and wheels.
I've had a lifted and modified jeep wrangler since the day I got my license: '03, '06, '13, and now a '18. But of course I like fast cars too...I started out a VW guy, mk4 20th AE with a KO4 swap, and then a mk4 R32. Spent some time with a 400hp STI, and then a FBO R35 GTR. Missed having a manual transmission, which brought me to a supercharged GM product or two (never again). My brother and I recently began a track build put of a R53 Mini Cooper S. Mix in a bunch of dirtbikes, couple Harleys, and a Ducati, and you're up to speed.To this day, the most FUN car I have owned was the damn 2003 VW GTI. Modded it put about 250hp to the wheels, with suspension and brake upgrades to match. It was just so simple and engaging to drive, I've regretted selling it for years. Simply, the T was the closest experience to that car, and after a couple of test drives, I knew I had to get one. Not a track car, not another 800hp monster that was unenjoyable on the street, just a car that was somewhat raw and very-much-so a pleasure to drive.
Not sure why I felt the need to share my story, but for me, I got the T. Marketing ploy or not, I connected with it, and got it exactly as I wanted. Nothing but love to everyone out there...if you're active on this forum, you are likely the proud owner of a car you worked hard to get and spoke to you. Cherish that $&!%
02-16-2019, 11:57 PM
#103
Not sure why I felt the need to share my story, but for me, I got the T. Marketing ploy or not, I connected with it, and got it exactly as I wanted. Nothing but love to everyone out there...if you're active on this forum, you are likely the proud owner of a car you worked hard to get and spoke to you. Cherish that $&!%
its worth keeping in mind there a are lot of people on here that own multiple Porsche sports cars, historics through to modern offerings and Supercars too - so you get a diverse range of opinions based on those often long and varied, perhaps even storied histories. There is also a lot of knowledge on here if you know where to look - however one thing never changes and that is Porsche wants to make as big a margin as possible as fast as possible. They want to run you up the price option runway hard and often.
