Question from a person new to Porsche
10-14-2018, 03:24 PM
#76
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The 718 Boxster S new with spec was close £64,500 MSRP less £1500 discount in March 2017 so £63K actual. No Porsche dealers in UK give much discount. I traded for £49K in June 18 so close 22% lost. The same car on the configurator now lists at £67K so, damn, nearly 27% less than current MSRP in 15 months. But of course dealer mark up distorts. They put my 718 up for £55K (sold straight away!) so realistically say £53,500. If you use that figure instead of price paid to me, it's more like 15% less than I paid and 20% less than current MSRP.
The 911 Cab S was £93K Configures now at £114K so only 18% depreciation (probably 14% off actual purchase price). Difficult to know really given dealer margins very high. Bottom line is I don't think the depreciation factor is much different when considering between a 718 and 911 purchase although I strongly suspect the 911 holds slightly better. However, the dealer margin means the depreciation on whatever you sell will be a helluva lot more than on what you buy!
Not sure how but I worked out that the actual cash I paid to upgrade to the same age 911 was about the same or very slightly more than if I'd bought a new 911 in the first place. But of course I didn't have the benefit of the more expensive 911 from new.
The 911 Cab S was £93K Configures now at £114K so only 18% depreciation (probably 14% off actual purchase price). Difficult to know really given dealer margins very high. Bottom line is I don't think the depreciation factor is much different when considering between a 718 and 911 purchase although I strongly suspect the 911 holds slightly better. However, the dealer margin means the depreciation on whatever you sell will be a helluva lot more than on what you buy!
Not sure how but I worked out that the actual cash I paid to upgrade to the same age 911 was about the same or very slightly more than if I'd bought a new 911 in the first place. But of course I didn't have the benefit of the more expensive 911 from new.
10-14-2018, 10:14 PM
#78
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After all this research and analysis, it left me wondering if it was all worth it to buy used. Everyone kept saying how much of a better deal you get with CPO, but after running the numbers, I'm wondering if that's the case at least for my situation. My analysis below assumes I keep the car for two years.
If you buy new (model year 2019 I am told are arriving in the next few weeks), it seems you can get 8 to 10% off MSRP based on what people have reported on message boards. Take the average and call it 9%. So you're buying at 91% of MSRP. After 2 years of driving 10k miles per year, if I sell to a private party, according to Edmunds, I'm likely to get 64% of MSRP if the car is in outstanding shape. So total cost of ownership = 91% - 64% = 27% of MSRP. Assume a $75k MSRP, and that's a 2 year cost of ownership of $20,259.
If I buy a 2 year old car (model year 2017), based on others' buying experiences on the message boards and what I'm seeing from dealers, it seems that 78% of MSRP is realistic to buy a CPO 2017 low mileage (6k miles) car in a reasonable time frame (and not wait and hold out for a long time for the very best deal). According to Edmunds, after 2 years of driving, 10k miles per year, if I sell it to a private party, I'm likely to get 52% of MSRP. So total cost of ownership = 78% - 52% = 26% of MSRP. Assuming a $75k MSRP like above, that's a 2 year cost of ownership of $19,755.
So according to the above analysis, I save only $504 while driving a 2 year used car with miles, instead of a brand new car. This obviously doesn't make sense. Surely I'm missing something? I assumed I'd be saving something massive like at least $5k to $10k. Otherwise, I would just buy new lol.
If you buy new (model year 2019 I am told are arriving in the next few weeks), it seems you can get 8 to 10% off MSRP based on what people have reported on message boards. Take the average and call it 9%. So you're buying at 91% of MSRP. After 2 years of driving 10k miles per year, if I sell to a private party, according to Edmunds, I'm likely to get 64% of MSRP if the car is in outstanding shape. So total cost of ownership = 91% - 64% = 27% of MSRP. Assume a $75k MSRP, and that's a 2 year cost of ownership of $20,259.
If I buy a 2 year old car (model year 2017), based on others' buying experiences on the message boards and what I'm seeing from dealers, it seems that 78% of MSRP is realistic to buy a CPO 2017 low mileage (6k miles) car in a reasonable time frame (and not wait and hold out for a long time for the very best deal). According to Edmunds, after 2 years of driving, 10k miles per year, if I sell it to a private party, I'm likely to get 52% of MSRP. So total cost of ownership = 78% - 52% = 26% of MSRP. Assuming a $75k MSRP like above, that's a 2 year cost of ownership of $19,755.
So according to the above analysis, I save only $504 while driving a 2 year used car with miles, instead of a brand new car. This obviously doesn't make sense. Surely I'm missing something? I assumed I'd be saving something massive like at least $5k to $10k. Otherwise, I would just buy new lol.
10-14-2018, 11:08 PM
#79
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Here's what might be missing:
1) A new car costs substantially more than an CPO car, which is why you've been given that advice. You simply tie up less capital. If that's not important, then by all means get a new car!
2) 9-10% off MSRP on a brand new car is a pretty unusual deal. Sure, there are some cars out there like that but you'll have to hunt around. The most common candidates will most likely be cars that have been on the lot for a while, perhaps with a weird set of options. And the warranty clock has already been ticking for a while. There's a 911 for sale near me right now that has been on the lot for almost 2 years. If you can find a dealership hungry to move cars then you have a better shot, but that's not the case where I live. I say around %5 is a more reasonable expectation. And remember, cars with weird option combinations may harder to resell.
I know you don't care much about the options other than color, transmission, and wheels. Most people on this forum, I've noticed, are very interested in the build and options selected that maximize their enjoyment of the car. Some value the performance options, others really enjoy the cosmetic touches - those things that make the difference to people based on what they most appreciate. One thing is certain: the car doesn't become more enjoyable to drive and own because it had the biggest discount.
1) A new car costs substantially more than an CPO car, which is why you've been given that advice. You simply tie up less capital. If that's not important, then by all means get a new car!
2) 9-10% off MSRP on a brand new car is a pretty unusual deal. Sure, there are some cars out there like that but you'll have to hunt around. The most common candidates will most likely be cars that have been on the lot for a while, perhaps with a weird set of options. And the warranty clock has already been ticking for a while. There's a 911 for sale near me right now that has been on the lot for almost 2 years. If you can find a dealership hungry to move cars then you have a better shot, but that's not the case where I live. I say around %5 is a more reasonable expectation. And remember, cars with weird option combinations may harder to resell.
I know you don't care much about the options other than color, transmission, and wheels. Most people on this forum, I've noticed, are very interested in the build and options selected that maximize their enjoyment of the car. Some value the performance options, others really enjoy the cosmetic touches - those things that make the difference to people based on what they most appreciate. One thing is certain: the car doesn't become more enjoyable to drive and own because it had the biggest discount.
10-14-2018, 11:13 PM
#80
Just wanted to say, thanks for doing all the analysis. Very informative.
10-14-2018, 11:27 PM
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Here's what might be missing:
1) A new car costs substantially more than an CPO car, which is why you've been given that advice. You simply tie up less capital. If that's not important, then by all means get a new car!
2) 9-10% off MSRP on a brand new car is a pretty unusual deal. Sure, there are some cars out there like that but you'll have to hunt around. The most common candidates will most likely be cars that have been on the lot for a while, perhaps with a weird set of options. And the warranty clock has already been ticking for a while. There's a 911 for sale near me right now that has been on the lot for almost 2 years. If you can find a dealership hungry to move cars then you have a better shot, but that's not the case where I live. I say around %5 is a more reasonable expectation. And remember, cars with weird option combinations may harder to resell.
I know you don't care much about the options other than color, transmission, and wheels. Most people on this forum, I've noticed, are very interested in the build and options selected that maximize their enjoyment of the car. Some value the performance options, others really enjoy the cosmetic touches - those things that make the difference to people based on what they most appreciate. One thing is certain: the car doesn't become more enjoyable to drive and own because it had the biggest discount.
1) A new car costs substantially more than an CPO car, which is why you've been given that advice. You simply tie up less capital. If that's not important, then by all means get a new car!
2) 9-10% off MSRP on a brand new car is a pretty unusual deal. Sure, there are some cars out there like that but you'll have to hunt around. The most common candidates will most likely be cars that have been on the lot for a while, perhaps with a weird set of options. And the warranty clock has already been ticking for a while. There's a 911 for sale near me right now that has been on the lot for almost 2 years. If you can find a dealership hungry to move cars then you have a better shot, but that's not the case where I live. I say around %5 is a more reasonable expectation. And remember, cars with weird option combinations may harder to resell.
I know you don't care much about the options other than color, transmission, and wheels. Most people on this forum, I've noticed, are very interested in the build and options selected that maximize their enjoyment of the car. Some value the performance options, others really enjoy the cosmetic touches - those things that make the difference to people based on what they most appreciate. One thing is certain: the car doesn't become more enjoyable to drive and own because it had the biggest discount.
Well, one thing I didn't account for in my buy new vs CPO analysis above is that the 78% of MSRP buy price for CPO is for low mileage cars (avg of 6k miles). So in the buy new example, I keep for 2 years, drive 20k miles, at a total cost of $20,259.
In the CPO example, I buy at 78% of MSRP a car with only 6k miles, but sell at 52% of MSRP a car with 40k miles, at a total cost of $19,755, allowing me to drive 34k miles over those two years. So I'm getting an extra 14k miles.
So basically, the trade off is, I pay roughly the same total cost of of ownership in both examples ($20k) over two years, but in one case I get to drive new for 20k miles, and in the other I drive a 2 year old used car for 34k miles. Edmunds estimates a 2 year old CPO with 20k miles buy price is 75% of MSRP and assuming the real world CPO with 6k miles buy price is 78%, then I'm basically paying 3% of MSRP or $75k x 3%= $2,250 for 14,000 extra miles, or 16 cents a mile extra.
And yes, 9% off MSRP for a brand new car might not be realistic. Wow, that's crazy about the 911 sitting on the lot for 2 years. I didn't think that would be possible. I would think dealers would automatically start aggressively discounting it as they're probably losing more money letting it sit there for 2 years right? Is this a small town the dealer is in? Or maybe it's a poorly run dealership?
As for your point about options, I guess I'm just different than most of the people on this board. I like the Cayman because it looks cool and because it drives well, and I think we can agree it drives well even without any options. Hence I only care about the color, wheels, and auto transmission (so my parents can drive it if necessary). I mean I think we can agree that 90% of why we're all here on this message board is because we like the Cayman even without options right? The lines of the exterior, the cutting edge German engineering, the feel of the drive are all there with or without options. The options are just a bonus for you guys I assume. And for me, I just don't care what kind of leather the steering wheel has, or if the seats are made of carbon fiber, or even if there's PASM or sport chrono because I'll never take this to a track and the Sport Mode that comes with the base car is perfectly good enough for me.
10-15-2018, 01:04 AM
#82
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You both just sounds mean.
First he is reviewing a 2015 (the review was done in 2017). So many of the features he mention it does not have it now does have.
Second Maserati has more models then just Ghibli.
You don't need to put someone down to feel good.
I'm happy for anyone that acquires a car that they can afford and makes them happy to drive. It does not make my car purchase any better or any worse.
First he is reviewing a 2015 (the review was done in 2017). So many of the features he mention it does not have it now does have.
Second Maserati has more models then just Ghibli.
You don't need to put someone down to feel good.
I'm happy for anyone that acquires a car that they can afford and makes them happy to drive. It does not make my car purchase any better or any worse.
I just dont quite understand why would one buy something that's VERY similar to a Chrysler 300 and pay 4 times as much for it.....but again to each his own
10-15-2018, 01:28 AM
#83
Its simple buy what "moves you" or what you "connect with" - do not think of these cars as an investment, they are not - some may depreciate at different rates to others, nontheless they still depreciate (to a model specific floor).
The current GT cars also depreciate - they are produced in volume. The only Porsche sports cars I see as collectible in the recent crop are the 918 Spyder, R, series II RS, 935 and GT2 RS.
Another rule of thumb, if you have to get on a waiting list (as in, be on it for several years) for a Porsche sports car it may have some potential in the future if you don't drive it and keep it in original condition - basically low/lower volume GT cars.
Buy, drive, enjoy - rinse and repeat
The current GT cars also depreciate - they are produced in volume. The only Porsche sports cars I see as collectible in the recent crop are the 918 Spyder, R, series II RS, 935 and GT2 RS.
Another rule of thumb, if you have to get on a waiting list (as in, be on it for several years) for a Porsche sports car it may have some potential in the future if you don't drive it and keep it in original condition - basically low/lower volume GT cars.
Buy, drive, enjoy - rinse and repeat
10-15-2018, 01:37 AM
#84
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Well, one thing I didn't account for in my buy new vs CPO analysis above is that the 78% of MSRP buy price for CPO is for low mileage cars (avg of 6k miles). So in the buy new example, I keep for 2 years, drive 20k miles, at a total cost of $20,259.
In the CPO example, I buy at 78% of MSRP a car with only 6k miles, but sell at 52% of MSRP a car with 40k miles, at a total cost of $19,755, allowing me to drive 34k miles over those two years. So I'm getting an extra 14k miles.
So basically, the trade off is, I pay roughly the same total cost of of ownership in both examples ($20k) over two years, but in one case I get to drive new for 20k miles, and in the other I drive a 2 year old used car for 34k miles. Edmunds estimates a 2 year old CPO with 20k miles buy price is 75% of MSRP and assuming the real world CPO with 6k miles buy price is 78%, then I'm basically paying 3% of MSRP or $75k x 3%= $2,250 for 14,000 extra miles, or 16 cents a mile extra.
In the CPO example, I buy at 78% of MSRP a car with only 6k miles, but sell at 52% of MSRP a car with 40k miles, at a total cost of $19,755, allowing me to drive 34k miles over those two years. So I'm getting an extra 14k miles.
So basically, the trade off is, I pay roughly the same total cost of of ownership in both examples ($20k) over two years, but in one case I get to drive new for 20k miles, and in the other I drive a 2 year old used car for 34k miles. Edmunds estimates a 2 year old CPO with 20k miles buy price is 75% of MSRP and assuming the real world CPO with 6k miles buy price is 78%, then I'm basically paying 3% of MSRP or $75k x 3%= $2,250 for 14,000 extra miles, or 16 cents a mile extra.
And yes, 9% off MSRP for a brand new car might not be realistic. Wow, that's crazy about the 911 sitting on the lot for 2 years. I didn't think that would be possible. I would think dealers would automatically start aggressively discounting it as they're probably losing more money letting it sit there for 2 years right? Is this a small town the dealer is in? Or maybe it's a poorly run dealership?
As for your point about options, I guess I'm just different than most of the people on this board. I like the Cayman because it looks cool and because it drives well, and I think we can agree it drives well even without any options. Hence I only care about the color, wheels, and auto transmission (so my parents can drive it if necessary). I mean I think we can agree that 90% of why we're all here on this message board is because we like the Cayman even without options right? The lines of the exterior, the cutting edge German engineering, the feel of the drive are all there with or without options. The options are just a bonus for you guys I assume. And for me, I just don't care what kind of leather the steering wheel has, or if the seats are made of carbon fiber, or even if there's PASM or sport chrono because I'll never take this to a track and the Sport Mode that comes with the base car is perfectly good enough for me.
10-15-2018, 07:20 PM
#85
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I couldn't help it but I updated my model. It was bothering me that the value it predicted was way off for older model years with low mileage. I realized (and someone else mentioned this actually) that the CPO Cayman market seems to be going much more off of miles driven than what model year the car is. My original model weighted model year much more than miles. So I took a bunch of data (asking, msrp, and miles) from nationalpreownedporsche.com and created a multiple regression model, where miles and model year are explanatory variables and dealer CPO asking price/MSRP is the predicted variable. Results are below in the google sheets link. I assume I buy at dealer asking price, drive the car for 2 years and 20k miles, and then have the regression model predict the CPO asking price/MSRP for the car then. Now of course, I won't be selling the car as a CPO, so to account for the dealer profit and the cost of the CPO built into the predicted price, I add 16% of MSRP (according to Edmunds that's the average spread between what you get for a trade in vs what the dealer sells the same car as CPO) to my cost of ownership to account for this, as I assume I'll be getting much less than the predicted CPO asking price when I trade the car in. The results seem to show that if I can buy a new Cayman at 95% of MSRP (with a 5% discount) then my total cost of ownership ($22,109 in cell O6) will be a similar total cost of ownership as buying many CPOs (cells O7 to O32). By going CPO, depending upon which row of O7 to O32, it seems I save at most a few thousand bucks which I'm not sure is worth it given all the searching, haggling, having to setup a PPI, and the fact that it's a used car vs new. Most of you probably don't care to do this level of number crunching, but since I did the work, I thought I'd post it and maybe it'll help someone else. Any thoughts on the above are welcome!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
Last edited by chucknorrisjr; 10-15-2018 at 08:19 PM.
10-15-2018, 07:55 PM
#86
Some additional thoughts :
It's a pain in the butt to sell expensive cars private party
Depending on where you live, you may lose the tax benefit in a private sale
Figure a $10-15k difference between what a dealer will give you in trade and what they'll sell it for CPO
Buying used the best value against original MSRP is often with highly optioned cars.
I think the best long term value is buying a highly optioned CPO, purchase a vehicle service contract when the CPO expires and hold it for a few more years. Just my opinion. Every time a dealer is involved in a transaction their need to make a profit comes into play.
It's a pain in the butt to sell expensive cars private party
Depending on where you live, you may lose the tax benefit in a private sale
Figure a $10-15k difference between what a dealer will give you in trade and what they'll sell it for CPO
Buying used the best value against original MSRP is often with highly optioned cars.
I think the best long term value is buying a highly optioned CPO, purchase a vehicle service contract when the CPO expires and hold it for a few more years. Just my opinion. Every time a dealer is involved in a transaction their need to make a profit comes into play.
10-15-2018, 08:17 PM
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Some additional thoughts :
It's a pain in the butt to sell expensive cars private party
Depending on where you live, you may lose the tax benefit in a private sale
Figure a $10-15k difference between what a dealer will give you in trade and what they'll sell it for CPO
Buying used the best value against original MSRP is often with highly optioned cars.
I think the best long term value is buying a highly optioned CPO, purchase a vehicle service contract when the CPO expires and hold it for a few more years. Just my opinion. Every time a dealer is involved in a transaction their need to make a profit comes into play.
It's a pain in the butt to sell expensive cars private party
Depending on where you live, you may lose the tax benefit in a private sale
Figure a $10-15k difference between what a dealer will give you in trade and what they'll sell it for CPO
Buying used the best value against original MSRP is often with highly optioned cars.
I think the best long term value is buying a highly optioned CPO, purchase a vehicle service contract when the CPO expires and hold it for a few more years. Just my opinion. Every time a dealer is involved in a transaction their need to make a profit comes into play.
10-15-2018, 09:30 PM
#88
Try not to overthink......as you know all models are wrong. Too many assumptions and regression while good for indentifing a past trend or relationship.....just is not as accurate of a predictor given all models are wrong.
I cant speak for all here but I know my decision was based on what can I afford?, am I willing to spend that?, and what do I really want? In my case I wanted a specific build, saving some bucks for something I felt would require me compromising from what I really wanted just wasnt worth it. So factory order it was. Have no though to depreciation as Im going to drive it a lot and pile the miles on.....enjoying every second and not worrying about the next future owner.
I cant speak for all here but I know my decision was based on what can I afford?, am I willing to spend that?, and what do I really want? In my case I wanted a specific build, saving some bucks for something I felt would require me compromising from what I really wanted just wasnt worth it. So factory order it was. Have no though to depreciation as Im going to drive it a lot and pile the miles on.....enjoying every second and not worrying about the next future owner.
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10-23-2018, 12:57 AM
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After all this analysis, bidding, and negotiation, I'm very happy to say the journey has come to an end (and not soon enough, this took so much time!). I now have a new black 2018 Cayman with 20" Carrera S wheels sitting downstairs and I've already put 250 miles on it in a couple days. Here's what the bidding process looked like in case it helps anyone else:
CPO 2017 Cayman S in black with 1,602 miles: Asking $72,995. Offered $64,500 given that the car shows an accident on AutoCheck (Dealer said Carfax is clean and paint meter shows no accident on any of the panels, so they claimed the car had no accidents and it must be a mistake by Autocheck.). Dealer responded "Thank you for your offer but that is below our cost on the car and does not make sense. We can make more at auction from dealers who base their buying off the same reports." A few days later they said the best they can do is $68,995.
CPO 2017 Cayman S in black with 357 miles: Asking $73,998. Offered $60,762. Dealer did not counter with a lower price, and said $73,998 was their "best price."
Certified "Factory Demo" 2018 Cayman S in black with 3,310 miles: Asking $77,695. Offered $67,134. This car was never titled as it was used as a "factory demo" for "Porsche events." I asked what exactly that meant, as I told the dealer I know these cars are sometimes used for track events which of course isn't an ideal used car to buy. The salesman claimed he had no further knowledge than it was used for "Porsche events." I read somewhere that since this car was never titled, if it was involved in an accident, it wouldn't show up on a CarFax as a car needs to be titled for accidents to be reported. I told the salesman this, and he of course disagreed, but my low offer was because it included a 10% discount for my assuming the car was in an accident since I have to assume worst case for my bid. Salesman said off the bat his manager wouldn't accept the offer. I then offered $74,594 for a lease of the car since if it had actually been in an accident, I wouldn't have to worry about losing money on the resale. Salesman's manager said he could not move more than a few hundred on their asking price.
CPO 2017 Cayman in silver with 6,555 miles: Asking $59,700. Offered $52,170. Dealer rejected saying that was below his cost. Dealer countered at $59,000.
CPO 2017 Cayman in silver with 6,040 miles: Asking $69,981. Offered $60,998. Salesman said the manager rejected. Salesman said the most he saw the manager moving was $500 and that no one, no one ever gets $10k off. A few days later the salesman said the car sold, at which price, I don't know.
CPO 2017 Cayman in silver with 12,719 miles: Asking $53,481. Offered $45,004. Dealer rejected saying wholesale price was 10 to 12% higher than my offer not including $3k for the CPO. He did not counter.
New 2018 Cayman in black with 0 miles. Asking/MSRP $71,370. Offered $64,000. Manager countered with $65,170 citing floor plan costs, etc. I told him since he countered above my bid, I was going to reach out to other dealers and to get back to me with his best price in a few hours. He got back to me in a few hours accepting my original $64k offer, but by that time I already accepted the offer below.
New 2018 Cayman in black with 0 miles. Asking/MSRP $68,080. I offered $61,000 citing that the 2019s are already on a boat on the way over so a bit more than the standard discount off MSRP was justified. Salesman told me he'd run it by his manager, and they accepted my offer within an hour. This came out to 10.4% off MSRP for a new Cayman, which from what I gather is a good deal! Plus $695 in dealer fees. In looking for financing for this purchase, I was quoted a 2.74% rate from AAA Auto Loans. I then saw that Lighstream offers to beat any quote by 10 bps, so I ended up getting a 2.64% for 48 months loan from Lightstream. Dealer financing was 3.99%. The Porsche business manager was impressed by my rate : )
Any thoughts? Thanks again everyone for all your help in this very involved process! A few questions below please.
1) I'm don't want to spend the time to baby this car, but in order to keep it reasonably clean, is going to the self car wash and pressure spraying with water, then soap, and drying with gas station paper towels adequate? Will doing this every two weeks be good enough?
2) I am planning on doing a road trip across the country starting in December. All my stops will be in the south except for Denver. Obviously I don't want to get winter tires just to spend one week in Denver, so assuming my schedule is flexible, could I just make sure to drive in and out of Colorado and Denver when there is no snow on the roads and be fine? I guess if it snows while I'm there, I can just wait a few days for the roads to be plowed and rid of snow before leaving?
3) Is anyone using 87 or 89 octane? From a search of the forums, seems like most use 91 or 93.
4) The dealer was offering a prepaid service for 3 years for I believe $1440. Could this be a good deal? I read on the forum somewhere that the first service/oil change at 1yr or 10k miles is included free for all Porsches 2018 or later? So in the above plan, I would be paying $1440 for the 2nd and 3rd service essentially?
Thanks!
CPO 2017 Cayman S in black with 1,602 miles: Asking $72,995. Offered $64,500 given that the car shows an accident on AutoCheck (Dealer said Carfax is clean and paint meter shows no accident on any of the panels, so they claimed the car had no accidents and it must be a mistake by Autocheck.). Dealer responded "Thank you for your offer but that is below our cost on the car and does not make sense. We can make more at auction from dealers who base their buying off the same reports." A few days later they said the best they can do is $68,995.
CPO 2017 Cayman S in black with 357 miles: Asking $73,998. Offered $60,762. Dealer did not counter with a lower price, and said $73,998 was their "best price."
Certified "Factory Demo" 2018 Cayman S in black with 3,310 miles: Asking $77,695. Offered $67,134. This car was never titled as it was used as a "factory demo" for "Porsche events." I asked what exactly that meant, as I told the dealer I know these cars are sometimes used for track events which of course isn't an ideal used car to buy. The salesman claimed he had no further knowledge than it was used for "Porsche events." I read somewhere that since this car was never titled, if it was involved in an accident, it wouldn't show up on a CarFax as a car needs to be titled for accidents to be reported. I told the salesman this, and he of course disagreed, but my low offer was because it included a 10% discount for my assuming the car was in an accident since I have to assume worst case for my bid. Salesman said off the bat his manager wouldn't accept the offer. I then offered $74,594 for a lease of the car since if it had actually been in an accident, I wouldn't have to worry about losing money on the resale. Salesman's manager said he could not move more than a few hundred on their asking price.
CPO 2017 Cayman in silver with 6,555 miles: Asking $59,700. Offered $52,170. Dealer rejected saying that was below his cost. Dealer countered at $59,000.
CPO 2017 Cayman in silver with 6,040 miles: Asking $69,981. Offered $60,998. Salesman said the manager rejected. Salesman said the most he saw the manager moving was $500 and that no one, no one ever gets $10k off. A few days later the salesman said the car sold, at which price, I don't know.
CPO 2017 Cayman in silver with 12,719 miles: Asking $53,481. Offered $45,004. Dealer rejected saying wholesale price was 10 to 12% higher than my offer not including $3k for the CPO. He did not counter.
New 2018 Cayman in black with 0 miles. Asking/MSRP $71,370. Offered $64,000. Manager countered with $65,170 citing floor plan costs, etc. I told him since he countered above my bid, I was going to reach out to other dealers and to get back to me with his best price in a few hours. He got back to me in a few hours accepting my original $64k offer, but by that time I already accepted the offer below.
New 2018 Cayman in black with 0 miles. Asking/MSRP $68,080. I offered $61,000 citing that the 2019s are already on a boat on the way over so a bit more than the standard discount off MSRP was justified. Salesman told me he'd run it by his manager, and they accepted my offer within an hour. This came out to 10.4% off MSRP for a new Cayman, which from what I gather is a good deal! Plus $695 in dealer fees. In looking for financing for this purchase, I was quoted a 2.74% rate from AAA Auto Loans. I then saw that Lighstream offers to beat any quote by 10 bps, so I ended up getting a 2.64% for 48 months loan from Lightstream. Dealer financing was 3.99%. The Porsche business manager was impressed by my rate : )
Any thoughts? Thanks again everyone for all your help in this very involved process! A few questions below please.
1) I'm don't want to spend the time to baby this car, but in order to keep it reasonably clean, is going to the self car wash and pressure spraying with water, then soap, and drying with gas station paper towels adequate? Will doing this every two weeks be good enough?
2) I am planning on doing a road trip across the country starting in December. All my stops will be in the south except for Denver. Obviously I don't want to get winter tires just to spend one week in Denver, so assuming my schedule is flexible, could I just make sure to drive in and out of Colorado and Denver when there is no snow on the roads and be fine? I guess if it snows while I'm there, I can just wait a few days for the roads to be plowed and rid of snow before leaving?
3) Is anyone using 87 or 89 octane? From a search of the forums, seems like most use 91 or 93.
4) The dealer was offering a prepaid service for 3 years for I believe $1440. Could this be a good deal? I read on the forum somewhere that the first service/oil change at 1yr or 10k miles is included free for all Porsches 2018 or later? So in the above plan, I would be paying $1440 for the 2nd and 3rd service essentially?
Thanks!
10-23-2018, 01:32 AM
#90
Originally Posted by chucknorrisjr
After all this analysis, bidding, and negotiation, I'm very happy to say the journey has come to an end (and not soon enough, this took so much time!). I now have a new black 2018 Cayman with 20" Carrera S wheels sitting downstairs and I've already put 250 miles on it in a couple days. Here's what the bidding process looked like in case it helps anyone else:
CPO 2017 Cayman S in black with 1,602 miles: Asking $72,995. Offered $64,500 given that the car shows an accident on AutoCheck (Dealer said Carfax is clean and paint meter shows no accident on any of the panels, so they claimed the car had no accidents and it must be a mistake by Autocheck.). Dealer responded "Thank you for your offer but that is below our cost on the car and does not make sense. We can make more at auction from dealers who base their buying off the same reports." A few days later they said the best they can do is $68,995.
CPO 2017 Cayman S in black with 357 miles: Asking $73,998. Offered $60,762. Dealer did not counter with a lower price, and said $73,998 was their "best price."
Certified "Factory Demo" 2018 Cayman S in black with 3,310 miles: Asking $77,695. Offered $67,134. This car was never titled as it was used as a "factory demo" for "Porsche events." I asked what exactly that meant, as I told the dealer I know these cars are sometimes used for track events which of course isn't an ideal used car to buy. The salesman claimed he had no further knowledge than it was used for "Porsche events." I read somewhere that since this car was never titled, if it was involved in an accident, it wouldn't show up on a CarFax as a car needs to be titled for accidents to be reported. I told the salesman this, and he of course disagreed, but my low offer was because it included a 10% discount for my assuming the car was in an accident since I have to assume worst case for my bid. Salesman said off the bat his manager wouldn't accept the offer. I then offered $74,594 for a lease of the car since if it had actually been in an accident, I wouldn't have to worry about losing money on the resale. Salesman's manager said he could not move more than a few hundred on their asking price.
CPO 2017 Cayman in silver with 6,555 miles: Asking $59,700. Offered $52,170. Dealer rejected saying that was below his cost. Dealer countered at $59,000.
CPO 2017 Cayman in silver with 6,040 miles: Asking $69,981. Offered $60,998. Salesman said the manager rejected. Salesman said the most he saw the manager moving was $500 and that no one, no one ever gets $10k off. A few days later the salesman said the car sold, at which price, I don't know.
CPO 2017 Cayman in silver with 12,719 miles: Asking $53,481. Offered $45,004. Dealer rejected saying wholesale price was 10 to 12% higher than my offer not including $3k for the CPO. He did not counter.
New 2018 Cayman in black with 0 miles. Asking/MSRP $71,370. Offered $64,000. Manager countered with $65,170 citing floor plan costs, etc. I told him since he countered above my bid, I was going to reach out to other dealers and to get back to me with his best price in a few hours. He got back to me in a few hours accepting my original $64k offer, but by that time I already accepted the offer below.
New 2018 Cayman in black with 0 miles. Asking/MSRP $68,080. I offered $61,000 citing that the 2019s are already on a boat on the way over so a bit more than the standard discount off MSRP was justified. Salesman told me he'd run it by his manager, and they accepted my offer within an hour. This came out to 10.4% off MSRP for a new Cayman, which from what I gather is a good deal! Plus $695 in dealer fees. In looking for financing for this purchase, I was quoted a 2.74% rate from AAA Auto Loans. I then saw that Lighstream offers to beat any quote by 10 bps, so I ended up getting a 2.64% for 48 months loan from Lightstream. Dealer financing was 3.99%. The Porsche business manager was impressed by my rate : )
Any thoughts? Thanks again everyone for all your help in this very involved process! A few questions below please.
1) I'm don't want to spend the time to baby this car, but in order to keep it reasonably clean, is going to the self car wash and pressure spraying with water, then soap, and drying with gas station paper towels adequate? Will doing this every two weeks be good enough?
2) I am planning on doing a road trip across the country starting in December. All my stops will be in the south except for Denver. Obviously I don't want to get winter tires just to spend one week in Denver, so assuming my schedule is flexible, could I just make sure to drive in and out of Colorado and Denver when there is no snow on the roads and be fine? I guess if it snows while I'm there, I can just wait a few days for the roads to be plowed and rid of snow before leaving?
3) Is anyone using 87 or 89 octane? From a search of the forums, seems like most use 91 or 93.
4) The dealer was offering a prepaid service for 3 years for I believe $1440. Could this be a good deal? I read on the forum somewhere that the first service/oil change at 1yr or 10k miles is included free for all Porsches 2018 or later? So in the above plan, I would be paying $1440 for the 2nd and 3rd service essentially?
Thanks!
CPO 2017 Cayman S in black with 1,602 miles: Asking $72,995. Offered $64,500 given that the car shows an accident on AutoCheck (Dealer said Carfax is clean and paint meter shows no accident on any of the panels, so they claimed the car had no accidents and it must be a mistake by Autocheck.). Dealer responded "Thank you for your offer but that is below our cost on the car and does not make sense. We can make more at auction from dealers who base their buying off the same reports." A few days later they said the best they can do is $68,995.
CPO 2017 Cayman S in black with 357 miles: Asking $73,998. Offered $60,762. Dealer did not counter with a lower price, and said $73,998 was their "best price."
Certified "Factory Demo" 2018 Cayman S in black with 3,310 miles: Asking $77,695. Offered $67,134. This car was never titled as it was used as a "factory demo" for "Porsche events." I asked what exactly that meant, as I told the dealer I know these cars are sometimes used for track events which of course isn't an ideal used car to buy. The salesman claimed he had no further knowledge than it was used for "Porsche events." I read somewhere that since this car was never titled, if it was involved in an accident, it wouldn't show up on a CarFax as a car needs to be titled for accidents to be reported. I told the salesman this, and he of course disagreed, but my low offer was because it included a 10% discount for my assuming the car was in an accident since I have to assume worst case for my bid. Salesman said off the bat his manager wouldn't accept the offer. I then offered $74,594 for a lease of the car since if it had actually been in an accident, I wouldn't have to worry about losing money on the resale. Salesman's manager said he could not move more than a few hundred on their asking price.
CPO 2017 Cayman in silver with 6,555 miles: Asking $59,700. Offered $52,170. Dealer rejected saying that was below his cost. Dealer countered at $59,000.
CPO 2017 Cayman in silver with 6,040 miles: Asking $69,981. Offered $60,998. Salesman said the manager rejected. Salesman said the most he saw the manager moving was $500 and that no one, no one ever gets $10k off. A few days later the salesman said the car sold, at which price, I don't know.
CPO 2017 Cayman in silver with 12,719 miles: Asking $53,481. Offered $45,004. Dealer rejected saying wholesale price was 10 to 12% higher than my offer not including $3k for the CPO. He did not counter.
New 2018 Cayman in black with 0 miles. Asking/MSRP $71,370. Offered $64,000. Manager countered with $65,170 citing floor plan costs, etc. I told him since he countered above my bid, I was going to reach out to other dealers and to get back to me with his best price in a few hours. He got back to me in a few hours accepting my original $64k offer, but by that time I already accepted the offer below.
New 2018 Cayman in black with 0 miles. Asking/MSRP $68,080. I offered $61,000 citing that the 2019s are already on a boat on the way over so a bit more than the standard discount off MSRP was justified. Salesman told me he'd run it by his manager, and they accepted my offer within an hour. This came out to 10.4% off MSRP for a new Cayman, which from what I gather is a good deal! Plus $695 in dealer fees. In looking for financing for this purchase, I was quoted a 2.74% rate from AAA Auto Loans. I then saw that Lighstream offers to beat any quote by 10 bps, so I ended up getting a 2.64% for 48 months loan from Lightstream. Dealer financing was 3.99%. The Porsche business manager was impressed by my rate : )
Any thoughts? Thanks again everyone for all your help in this very involved process! A few questions below please.
1) I'm don't want to spend the time to baby this car, but in order to keep it reasonably clean, is going to the self car wash and pressure spraying with water, then soap, and drying with gas station paper towels adequate? Will doing this every two weeks be good enough?
2) I am planning on doing a road trip across the country starting in December. All my stops will be in the south except for Denver. Obviously I don't want to get winter tires just to spend one week in Denver, so assuming my schedule is flexible, could I just make sure to drive in and out of Colorado and Denver when there is no snow on the roads and be fine? I guess if it snows while I'm there, I can just wait a few days for the roads to be plowed and rid of snow before leaving?
3) Is anyone using 87 or 89 octane? From a search of the forums, seems like most use 91 or 93.
4) The dealer was offering a prepaid service for 3 years for I believe $1440. Could this be a good deal? I read on the forum somewhere that the first service/oil change at 1yr or 10k miles is included free for all Porsches 2018 or later? So in the above plan, I would be paying $1440 for the 2nd and 3rd service essentially?
Thanks!
You have lots of questions and I'll respond to a few.
I don't know about the free first-year service but it's easy to confirm. I doubt $1400 is great for two services but again it's easy to ask your dealer.
Smarter brains than mine can address the octane question but I never use less than 93 (...probably just another area of my life in which I am over-insured :-)).
Winter tires are not just for snow--they are for temps below ~ 40oF, when high-performance summer tires lose considerable grip. Don't risk it.
Washing and drying the car with clean towels and not an automatic car wash should be fine.
Financing with Lightstream is great. Confirm it, but they likely gave you a loan without a lien requirement, which is simpler and means you don't have to pay it off immediately upon selling the car.
Enjoy your new Cayman. Be sure to join your local PCA club and whatever you do, DON'T miss out on taking your car to the track for PCA DE (drivers education) and auto-cross events.