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Nice first post. Post 100 more and I will answer you..
Yes I am new here and I have spent my time reading quite a few posts from start to end. I really don’t see how I need to qualify with a hundred posts in order to ask you to put our money where your mouth is. You tend to appear in opposition to most and many. And maybe you’re right. What do I know. But I have read each and every of your post in these threads and I’ve started wondering who you are and where you come from? Seriously, I am interested to know. And please, spare the bullying. Tell us who you are and what you base your knowledge/statements on. If it is years of experience in the industry I will listen, and I guess a lot of others too, but if it is just because you are a stubborn guy that think you’re right, know better and/or love to play the devils advocate all the time... From what I have read I think it is time you either stepped up and revealed some serious grounds for your arguments, besides you just think so, or consider toning down.
I've finally installed after market headers on my '19 GTS. I went with Kline. I thought about Vektors but I didn't want to spend the extra $$. Kline has a good rap in the 911 TT/TTS community but not really big in the Carrera community from what I can gather. I've decided to take a chance and so far, I'm happy with my decision. The install wasn't as simple as it looks. The driver's side was a total PITA but the passenger side was a breeze. I have battle damage on both of my hands to prove it. Basic666 did a nice install (Vekctor headers) writeup if you want to DIY.
Now I am stage 2 ready, I think. I have SOUL 200 cell cats, BMC air filter, and these high flow headers. IMHO, the best performance and sound improvement thus far came from SOUL 200 cell cats. Take it with a grain of salt since I'm only speaking from my butt dyno and half deaf ears. In regards to my limited time with the new headers, I do feel a slightly better throttle response and the turbos spooling up sound is more pronounced than before. The exhaust sounds a bit deeper as well. Overall, the car feels like it's breathing better and feels more efficient. Who really knows...it might be my head telling me all this. A true test would be to dyno this bad boy but I'm not that motivated. As it stands, I'm happy with how the car feels and when the right stage II tune comes out, I just might pull the trigger.
Your findings mirror mine. I do have dyno charts to prove what you and I are experiencing and I plan on posting them after the holidays.
The headers are definitely doing something and adding HP. The car is breathing much better and like 4 point 0 the issue is that the much improved flow is causing the throttle blade to actually close and limit the car. I suppose that’s a good thing in a weird way.
Cobb is aware of the issue and needs to address it in their tune. The solution is to raise the ceiling on the throttle blade limits to take advantage of all of this flow.
I also agree that that the cats are the single best improvement in sound and HP other than the tune itself. Congrats on the Kline gear, i think they make some of the best stuff around for our 991.2’s
Your findings mirror mine. I do have dyno charts to prove what you and I are experiencing and I plan on posting them after the holidays.
The headers are definitely doing something and adding HP. The car is breathing much better and like 4 point 0 the issue is that the much improved flow is causing the throttle blade to actually close and limit the car. I suppose that’s a good thing in a weird way.
Cobb is aware of the issue and needs to address it in their tune. The solution is to raise the ceiling on the throttle blade limits to take advantage of all of this flow.
I also agree that that the cats are the single best improvement in sound and HP other than the tune itself. Congrats on the Kline gear, i think they make some of the best stuff around for our 991.2’s
Throttle plate closing is there to prevent your engine from saying KABOOM. I appreciate the feature honestly.
I suppose you could take this position with every single limit that Porsche has on this engine. Rev limits, boost limits, throttle blade limits, top speed limits, etc.
There are responsible tunes who use conservative settings and those that do not. I am confident that Cobb is aware of the engines limitations and will push the overly conservative factor tune to a less restrictive tune. Don’t forget all of the 991.2 line use the same 3.0 engine all all have an assortment of HP output. This is based solely on the tune and on the GTS the addition of a slightly larger turbo.
plenty of HP in a Carrera base to get it beyond a GTS base and plenty of HP ina GTS bass to get it beyond a Turbo S base. It’s your car so you somewhat you feel comfortable doing.
Throttle plate closing is there to prevent your engine from saying KABOOM. I appreciate the feature honestly.
Exactly. My understanding is this throttle blade fluctuation, which if you look at some data logs is pretty significant, is trying to keep the tq manageable (below 500ft/lb).
I went for an extended drive, let the car get hotter than usual , and the throttle definitely felt more responsive than before the new headers. I definitely don't baby the car but it's still under 1,000 miles so I really don't want to open it up "too much", yet. And the sound...yes, it is definitely louder.
Though I'll probably never get bored with this car, I'll want a stage II tune soon. I remember getting just a stage I for my previous car and loving it, so I can only imagine what Mr. Hyde will look like!
Regarding the safe factor that Porsche puts on these cars, I'm curious to see what the numbers are. I definitely want maximum fun without blowing up the engine and the gear box.
Throttle plate closing is there to prevent your engine from saying KABOOM. I appreciate the feature honestly.
Yes, but not in this case. Boost target exceeded. The very conservative boost target or stage 1, gets so easily reached, so fast by the efficiency of equal length headers, that the ECU says, JOB done, Close the throttle. Good Job,
Waste gate duty on my car was 55%. That means there is huge headroom for more, safely.
As far as blowing the motor up, that is extremely unlkely in this car. You would have to do something really stupid. The only way to really blow it up, would be to have Air Fuel ratio lean right out. Doing something stupid like filling your entire tank with E85 when you were on Stock tune or stage 1. 93OCT has a Stoichiometric value of 14.7 (Sound familiar?) but E85 is 9.6. So you need a lot more E85 to poor down its neck, or you will lean out. But that is silly.
There is enough in the trims to deliver extra fuel if you were to just put 2 gallons of E85 in the tank. This will stop you pulling timing on stage 1 tune. And you give nice boost in power. I have tested 3 gallons and the car loves it and the air fuels are still fine. Do not exceed 3 gallons, until your car is specifically tuned for it. Because that would be silly. See above what silly means.
From all the logging I have done, compared to BGB, it appears that the Vektor headers made significant more change than catless. For those whose butt dyno's felt the cats made the bigger difference, that would be because they did Cats first. So don't discount what your headers did for you. They made everything happen so effortlessly, that you can reach all targets and close the throttle and coast, because they are so efficient at spooling the tubro's.
Its all good news, we just need to be patient. Don't get me wrong, my car absolutely hammers. But it is this fast, doing it with one hand tied behind its back.
On a side note, my Akra Cats have now been fitted . : ))) I have only driven from the shop home, and the wife was in the car. So I was only doing the speed limit, most of the time. I will say under 4,000 rpm they are refined and subtle. (I haven't gone above 4K yet with them.) I expected them to be a lot louder. They aren't what I would consider loud at all. My M4 was obnoxious. This is classy and refined and just a touch deeper. I want to do some more data logging today.
Hopefully Pro tuning is just a month away. I really love this car.
4 point 0: You and I have both been speaking with John from BGB and since we both know that the throttle blade isn't closing on his car and its closing on both of our cars AND the only difference is that we have headers, then we all seem to agree that the headers are doing something serious to this engine...in a good way. When I read that Porsche changed the headers on the 992 I knew that there was something to be gained changing them..
I'm not here to pick on Vektor again, but I am going to show you the same graph as your throttle blade graph. Mine is with Kline, yours with Vektor. I will let you and others decide what looks better or worse, but I can tell you that headers in general (regardless of the manufacturer) seem to be the one part that pushes the car into the stratosphere with regards to boost. The headers are what is making the car achieve boost limit so quickly. You will notice that even with a tuned ECU and no headers, that the car doesnt come close to max boost levels and will not retard timing, limit boost or close the throttle blade.
I didn't check my waste gate (maybe it is on my data logs and I dont even know it so tell me where to look) but, I can tell you that Cobb has seen my logs in full and say it is running very well with the caveat that the throttle blade is closing which is severely limiting the power. Kline Headers Cobb Tune
Take a look and tell me what you think. As I have said before I am no chart/graph expert and defer to those who are..
From the datalogs I've seen, once you get to a certain power level over stock the throttle does the herkie jerky. How much depends on what you've got for mods (how many power adders) and from what I can tell how ideal the conditions are for making boost (hot cats, cold ambient, etc...). I do not see and conclusive correlation with the available feedback. I can reproduce what I see on OUR car, but a local GTS and another base that I have data from does not mimic our results similar to the plot examples above. I say available feedback because Cobb (and our dyno OBD) feedback does not capture a lot of the feedback that is available on the Porsche ECU. We are also patiently waiting on ProTuner so we can dig deeper.
The good news is that none of this seems to be having any negative effects (lean, knock, excessively rich, backfires, etc.) on the engine's performance.
10-12-2018, 09:42 PM
In regards to my limited time with the new headers, I do feel a slightly better throttle response and the turbos spooling up sound is more pronounced than before. The exhaust sounds a bit deeper as well. Overall, the car feels like it's breathing better and feels more efficient. Who really knows...it might be my head telling me all this. A true test would be to dyno this bad boy but I'm not that motivated. As it stands, I'm happy with how the car feels and when the right stage II tune comes out, I just might pull the trigger.
, and the throttle definitely felt more responsive than before the new headers. I definitely don't baby the car but it's still under 1,000 miles so I really don't want to open it up "too much", yet.
And the sound...yes, it is definitely louder.
