When 370 is enough
08-08-2018, 10:41 AM
#151
Race Car
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The OP - A man by the way who is more accomplished in the car hobby than 99% of people on these boards - simply posts that he took his car out, really enjoyed it and was interested to realize that FOR HIM the 370 HP of his turbo motor is enough to be very satisying for him combined with everything else that his 911 offers. It wasn't a declaration of superiority, but more that he was a little surprised to realize that for him and his intended use, this total package brought real satisfaction. You would think that of all places - a Porsche 991 enthusiast forum dedicated to the 991 platform would be a place where people would get what he's saying, and those that don't would simply respect a persons opinion about their own car, maybe offering up what the their recipe for a satisfying car is without spewing ignorant hateful crap.
I'm not new to Rennlist by any means but I am new to the 991 forum....I'm hoping the post by Pete is more representative of the forum than some of the commentors.
I'm not new to Rennlist by any means but I am new to the 991 forum....I'm hoping the post by Pete is more representative of the forum than some of the commentors.
nicely stated, that is all.
08-08-2018, 11:13 AM
#152
Rennlist Member
This what happens to most threads on RL after enough time. They usually digress to personal insults blatant or slight of hand.
If you don't want more power " you are cheap and a wuss" and if you want more power " go buy a Hellcat".
If the numbers proved all the lather in these threads Porsche would have a lot few variants. They don't. I won't belittle anyone for their model choice. It's a dam Porsche, how lucky are we?
As far as the reasoning for not needing more hp and the time and distance it takes to use it, also not relevant in all cases. The power in my car is immediate and very useable even in safe lower speed driving.
We all drive a car brand that 80% of the country would love to own and these threads always end up with "whose is bigger or why smaller is better".
If you don't want more power " you are cheap and a wuss" and if you want more power " go buy a Hellcat".
If the numbers proved all the lather in these threads Porsche would have a lot few variants. They don't. I won't belittle anyone for their model choice. It's a dam Porsche, how lucky are we?
As far as the reasoning for not needing more hp and the time and distance it takes to use it, also not relevant in all cases. The power in my car is immediate and very useable even in safe lower speed driving.
We all drive a car brand that 80% of the country would love to own and these threads always end up with "whose is bigger or why smaller is better".
08-08-2018, 12:31 PM
#153
My personal opinion is the Porsche that cost the most is the best one. I'd never go out and willingly buy a cheaper one then post on forums why I think its better. I know I bought what I bought because its what I can afford. MOST people will agree they'd rather have a GT3 than a base cayman (including the guy driving the cayman). Yes some willingly get the slower cheaper car because they truly want it, but that's rare...enthusiasts that have plenty of other cars or want a toy to play with. Its difficult for me to understand someone test driving an S or GTS and saying 'nonono too much power too much lag boring!' then running to a base car that fundamentally drives similar, yet slightly worse and has slightly less power. The S/GTS doesn't have THAT much power... you can ring it out plenty easy just like a base, but everything just happens faster with more G force.
BUT, you have the ability to turn a good thread into a $hithole. Good job here again.
I comment on your posts before (see below). It was fun till I realize I was trying to educate a clown.
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I think the 'less weight and sound insulation' is just a marketing gimmick. It doesn't sound any different than any different than a base, S, or GTS with PSE inside and is fundamentally the same experience, but slightly better handling than the base (lower/ firmer suspension, standard 20 inch wheels, and optional rear steering) and slightly worse than S/GTS (loaded with the same + more options).
991.1 are only available as used; GT3 is not viable as a daily for someone; People still want an engine that retains some of the NA character; People want something more special like LWBS. What do they do? Carrera T it is.
The base/T and S have the same "linear acceleration," but in the S it just happens slightly faster and probably insignificantly so. The S is superior to a base not because of power but it has much better brakes, bigger wheels, PDCC, SPASM, rear steering, and AWD...if you're buying an S without that, it's pointless...might as well get a base car.
Do they make the car faster? Yes. Do they make the car more fun to drive? For me, no.
Saying if you don't have these, then it's pointless is really....pointless.
How many people here buy 911 because they can 'ONLY' afford a 911? Most people here simply buy and drive the car they like.
Maybe it is just me, but if $10-20k will change your decision on buying a $100K+ car, you should not buy it.
You might have worked hard to earn your first 911 at a relatively young age. Good for you.
But your comments made me feel you are clueless on cars, people, and money.
08-08-2018, 12:46 PM
#154
Rennlist Member
The OP - A man by the way who is more accomplished in the car hobby than 99% of people on these boards - simply posts that he took his car out, really enjoyed it and was interested to realize that FOR HIM the 370 HP of his turbo motor is enough to be very satisying for him combined with everything else that his 911 offers. It wasn't a declaration of superiority, but more that he was a little surprised to realize that for him and his intended use, this total package brought real satisfaction. You would think that of all places - a Porsche 991 enthusiast forum dedicated to the 991 platform would be a place where people would get what he's saying, and those that don't would simply respect a persons opinion about their own car, maybe offering up what the their recipe for a satisfying car is without spewing ignorant hateful crap.
I'm not new to Rennlist by any means but I am new to the 991 forum....I'm hoping the post by Pete is more representative of the forum than some of the commentors.
I'm not new to Rennlist by any means but I am new to the 991 forum....I'm hoping the post by Pete is more representative of the forum than some of the commentors.
I drive what I like (most importantly) and obviously what i can afford (next most importantly). I look for feedback and some education here not for someone to tell me what I should buy or how I should or shouldn't mod it. I do try to give input when I feel I have something to offer and think I do it respectfully. This is supposed to be a fun escape from all the serious stuff going on in life not a battle royale ever time you give feedback.
08-08-2018, 01:20 PM
#156
And while I like the differences of opinion I am sure am getting tired of "someone" saying that everyone else if full of crap and that they must be a real dumb a$$ to have that position. Pete's original post talked about how he was satisfied with 370hp .... did not see one comment where he said I was wrong if I wanted more!
08-08-2018, 01:26 PM
#157
Nordschleife Master
@svlr993 and @DNSGT3 speak the truth.
I was going to post something with similar sentiments, but these two did it more eloquently than I would have.
I was going to post something with similar sentiments, but these two did it more eloquently than I would have.
08-08-2018, 01:32 PM
#158
Rennlist Member
The OP - A man by the way who is more accomplished in the car hobby than 99% of people on these boards - simply posts that he took his car out, really enjoyed it and was interested to realize that FOR HIM the 370 HP of his turbo motor is enough to be very satisying for him combined with everything else that his 911 offers. It wasn't a declaration of superiority, but more that he was a little surprised to realize that for him and his intended use, this total package brought real satisfaction. You would think that of all places - a Porsche 991 enthusiast forum dedicated to the 991 platform would be a place where people would get what he's saying, and those that don't would simply respect a persons opinion about their own car, maybe offering up what the their recipe for a satisfying car is without spewing ignorant hateful crap.
I'm not new to Rennlist by any means but I am new to the 991 forum....I'm hoping the post by Pete is more representative of the forum than some of the commentors.
I'm not new to Rennlist by any means but I am new to the 991 forum....I'm hoping the post by Pete is more representative of the forum than some of the commentors.
08-08-2018, 01:42 PM
#159
Or at least, it's enough for me in this car.
It's a funny thing, but the other evening I was out for a quick romp in the woods before the sun got too low and, corner to corner, I found myself not only sated by the thrust and pace of a "mere" Carrera, but wondering if I needed or even wanted more power. And the answer was...no.
This is funny to me because I drive all sorts of cars and have gotten used to 500-750 hp, and even 900 hp. Don't get me wrong...I like power when I have it under foot—but I find that the character of the engine matters far more to me: the way it makes its power, and how that power output ties into everything else about the car. The grip. The handling. The brakes. Etc. And that evening, as the air cooled (but was still warm) in those woods, this "mere" Carrera was a very, very sweet package.
That is all.
It's a funny thing, but the other evening I was out for a quick romp in the woods before the sun got too low and, corner to corner, I found myself not only sated by the thrust and pace of a "mere" Carrera, but wondering if I needed or even wanted more power. And the answer was...no.
This is funny to me because I drive all sorts of cars and have gotten used to 500-750 hp, and even 900 hp. Don't get me wrong...I like power when I have it under foot—but I find that the character of the engine matters far more to me: the way it makes its power, and how that power output ties into everything else about the car. The grip. The handling. The brakes. Etc. And that evening, as the air cooled (but was still warm) in those woods, this "mere" Carrera was a very, very sweet package.
That is all.
I am in total agreement with you. Out of every variation of the 911 that I test drove the base 991.2 Carrera was the sweet spot for me.
08-08-2018, 01:46 PM
#160
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Likewise, I enjoy the posts of others—in some ways enjoying reasoned opinions or observations that differ from mine the most. They challenge my way of thinking, and I can consider or confirm my viewpoints. I might learn something, and have fun along the way. I think that was and is the purpose of Rennlist. Where it goes wrong is the same way it's gone wrong in this thread and elsewhere in the 991 forum in the past:
It moves from a discussion/debate > personal attacks/judgement of individuals.
The actual Rennlist guidelines—the ones we all agreed to in order to be here—address this fundamental problem of divisive posts that will chase users away (most relevant text underlined):
Content:
All material posted or linked to, must be G rated. In other words, use only language and post material suitable for the home or office. Do not post foul language, racial epithets or sexually explicit content in any form. At no time will insults or attacks on an individual be tolerated. Racial slurs, epithets or denigrating references to race, color, creed or sexual preference will not be tolerated. Furthermore, they must not contain political statements, controversial messages, slurs or any other provocative statements.
I suspect "age" and/or "generation" could be added to "race, color, creed, or sexual preference". Getting into that stuff adds nothing useful to the discussion, and only divides us.
And some very smart words from a very smart guy, John Dunkle, who started this thing we all benefit from with a group of his friends:
First –Thanks for taking a minute to read this!!!….
Second – Remember, there was a time when you made your first post as well..!!! So – before you post a reply, ask yourself how you would feel reading it as a “newbie”. If you would have been uncomfortable with it – chances are they will, too.
Third – If you are a “Rennlist Member” – please remember, there was a time that you weren’t either. What made you choose to become a Member? Why? Chances are – it wasn’t from a verbal beating, but rather – you wanted to become part of something pretty cool. So, if folks aren’t a Rennlist Member – that’s fine! They will if, they too, experience what it is you already participate within and would like to share that same excitement.
And Finally Please remember - this site is open to anyone – as long as they share the passion and enthusiasm about the car, the community and the site. Together - let’s make them feel “Welcome”!!!
John's intent was clear: Join in, but make Rennlist a welcoming place rather than a turn-off. Already, we've lost a lot of great Porsche people due to this issue. They don't post anymore, or far less often. And we shouldn't kid ourselves: We lose.
So let's clean this thread up and go forward—together. Better. We all agreed to do that much when we signed up for an account to post on Rennlist. I suspect that roughly all of us would enjoy a cup of coffee or a beer together. So if you attacked someone, or responded to their attack, maybe edit that post—and if someone quoted your, send them a PM and ask them to clean it up. Maybe even apologize, too. There's a very good chance they fully deserved it, but also an opportunity to be a better Rennlister. Let's turn a corner, folks.
It moves from a discussion/debate > personal attacks/judgement of individuals.
The actual Rennlist guidelines—the ones we all agreed to in order to be here—address this fundamental problem of divisive posts that will chase users away (most relevant text underlined):
Content:
All material posted or linked to, must be G rated. In other words, use only language and post material suitable for the home or office. Do not post foul language, racial epithets or sexually explicit content in any form. At no time will insults or attacks on an individual be tolerated. Racial slurs, epithets or denigrating references to race, color, creed or sexual preference will not be tolerated. Furthermore, they must not contain political statements, controversial messages, slurs or any other provocative statements.
I suspect "age" and/or "generation" could be added to "race, color, creed, or sexual preference". Getting into that stuff adds nothing useful to the discussion, and only divides us.
And some very smart words from a very smart guy, John Dunkle, who started this thing we all benefit from with a group of his friends:
First –Thanks for taking a minute to read this!!!….
Second – Remember, there was a time when you made your first post as well..!!! So – before you post a reply, ask yourself how you would feel reading it as a “newbie”. If you would have been uncomfortable with it – chances are they will, too.
Third – If you are a “Rennlist Member” – please remember, there was a time that you weren’t either. What made you choose to become a Member? Why? Chances are – it wasn’t from a verbal beating, but rather – you wanted to become part of something pretty cool. So, if folks aren’t a Rennlist Member – that’s fine! They will if, they too, experience what it is you already participate within and would like to share that same excitement.
And Finally Please remember - this site is open to anyone – as long as they share the passion and enthusiasm about the car, the community and the site. Together - let’s make them feel “Welcome”!!!
John's intent was clear: Join in, but make Rennlist a welcoming place rather than a turn-off. Already, we've lost a lot of great Porsche people due to this issue. They don't post anymore, or far less often. And we shouldn't kid ourselves: We lose.
So let's clean this thread up and go forward—together. Better. We all agreed to do that much when we signed up for an account to post on Rennlist. I suspect that roughly all of us would enjoy a cup of coffee or a beer together. So if you attacked someone, or responded to their attack, maybe edit that post—and if someone quoted your, send them a PM and ask them to clean it up. Maybe even apologize, too. There's a very good chance they fully deserved it, but also an opportunity to be a better Rennlister. Let's turn a corner, folks.
Last edited by stout; 08-08-2018 at 02:03 PM.
08-08-2018, 02:20 PM
#161
No kdding DNSGT3, you went through a lot of effort to dig into my posts (some of which not even on this thread) to see how much you could insult...that's kinda sad dude. Apparently it's not just me...you think everyone is stupid for posting opinions here? I stand by my posts and they are my opinions...if they make you hurt inside, ignore them? I get the it...you disagree with me, but there is no need for insults and hate speech. In other forums you'd be banned for flaming, but this is rennlist.
08-08-2018, 02:28 PM
#162
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
^ minthral, I don't know you, and certainly wish you no ill, but "if they make you hurt inside, ignore them?" just isn't part of the spirit of RL.
I really don't feel like going back through this thread to weed out who said what to whom, but it seems to me that 2-3 instigators are the ones who brought the insults to the party, and unfortunately pulled regularly nice/knowledgeable/kind Rennlisters down to their level. Again, my request is: Let's clean things up before the moderators (who we're lucky to have) are forced to. It's really easy to edit your posts, and worthwhile where they're in violation of Rennlist's policies (and basic civility).
A few apologies via PM might even do something: Make friends, and make this community better. My guess is most of those who are fighting would have a great evening at an event together—so why torpedo that, or Rennlist?
I really don't feel like going back through this thread to weed out who said what to whom, but it seems to me that 2-3 instigators are the ones who brought the insults to the party, and unfortunately pulled regularly nice/knowledgeable/kind Rennlisters down to their level. Again, my request is: Let's clean things up before the moderators (who we're lucky to have) are forced to. It's really easy to edit your posts, and worthwhile where they're in violation of Rennlist's policies (and basic civility).
A few apologies via PM might even do something: Make friends, and make this community better. My guess is most of those who are fighting would have a great evening at an event together—so why torpedo that, or Rennlist?
08-08-2018, 02:50 PM
#163
No kdding DNSGT3, you went through a lot of effort to dig into my posts (some of which not even on this thread) to see how much you could insult...that's kinda sad dude. Apparently it's not just me...you think everyone is stupid for posting opinions here? I stand by my posts and they are my opinions...if they make you hurt inside, ignore them? I get the it...you disagree with me, but there is no need for insults and hate speech. In other forums you'd be banned for flaming, but this is rennlist.
I can't stand your post and I will speak out.
No one would judge you for buying a used GTS, but you should not call out people who buy a Carrera T and say they cannot afford something better. You have no idea.
Yes this is Rennlist, people love cars with all kinds of preference. We don't judge a car based on its price. Certainly we don't judge people by the car they purchase.
This is just freaking ridiculous.
Last edited by DNSGT3; 08-08-2018 at 03:11 PM.
08-08-2018, 03:38 PM
#164
Rennlist Member
Pete I have even more respect for you now after your last few posts...I can try and get this party back on track here and say something about 911s.
I have learned lots from RL as well as from driving the base/S/GTS/T/991.1 turbo, and currently owning a T. Just wanted to echo what Pete feels in the base and try and explain this in my own words.
1. Its not 370 hp.... It over 400 at the crank. Lots of different dynos, theyre all posted online.
2. The 991.2 base is fast. Smoking fast when you get moving on regular roads. Even the manual.
3. One of the "problems" with the 991.2 is that the base power was kind of close to the S. Probably a little closer than the stated 50 hp from porsche. Just one example, cobb got 367/336 for the base and 403/367 for the S (Litchfield Porsche just posted 392hp at the wheels for the T with just the akra exhaust- different dyno). Not trying to bench race here, but on the same dyno thats a difference of 36 wheel hp and 31 ft lb of torque (9-10%). Thats not alot, considering up to 200+lb weight differences (6+%) between a loaded AWD/PDK and a stripper RWD/manual model. The power to weight ratio is basically the same once youre moving and the smaller turbos have la unique response that people really like. The main difference then becomes the chassis options of higher models, which some argue you dont really need. I suspect they are going to address the power hierarchy in the 992 and give the S more power, and I would bet they basically leave the 9A2 engine alone in the base model (and just say its 390 hp, because it actually is...). This is not confirmation bias or self justification. This is the type of **** 911 owners think about and care about, even if the $10k difference isnt a big deal financially.
4. A light RWD "370hp" 911 will destroy almost anything on a twisty road.
So as summarized above, I think the current gen Carrera engine is a real gem and I hope to master this car one day. Having said that I will probably step up to the GT3 one day just to experience that at some point in life. Not because its better, because its different.
I have learned lots from RL as well as from driving the base/S/GTS/T/991.1 turbo, and currently owning a T. Just wanted to echo what Pete feels in the base and try and explain this in my own words.
1. Its not 370 hp.... It over 400 at the crank. Lots of different dynos, theyre all posted online.
2. The 991.2 base is fast. Smoking fast when you get moving on regular roads. Even the manual.
3. One of the "problems" with the 991.2 is that the base power was kind of close to the S. Probably a little closer than the stated 50 hp from porsche. Just one example, cobb got 367/336 for the base and 403/367 for the S (Litchfield Porsche just posted 392hp at the wheels for the T with just the akra exhaust- different dyno). Not trying to bench race here, but on the same dyno thats a difference of 36 wheel hp and 31 ft lb of torque (9-10%). Thats not alot, considering up to 200+lb weight differences (6+%) between a loaded AWD/PDK and a stripper RWD/manual model. The power to weight ratio is basically the same once youre moving and the smaller turbos have la unique response that people really like. The main difference then becomes the chassis options of higher models, which some argue you dont really need. I suspect they are going to address the power hierarchy in the 992 and give the S more power, and I would bet they basically leave the 9A2 engine alone in the base model (and just say its 390 hp, because it actually is...). This is not confirmation bias or self justification. This is the type of **** 911 owners think about and care about, even if the $10k difference isnt a big deal financially.
4. A light RWD "370hp" 911 will destroy almost anything on a twisty road.
So as summarized above, I think the current gen Carrera engine is a real gem and I hope to master this car one day. Having said that I will probably step up to the GT3 one day just to experience that at some point in life. Not because its better, because its different.
08-08-2018, 06:51 PM
#165
Rennlist Member
In addition to the Porsche knowledge I glean from reading Rennlist, I also try to gain incite into the human nature component of the forum. The most striking takeaway I got from this thread is the post saying that the most expensive Porsche is the best. Such a sad, juvenile, uneducated perspective.
Thank you to the OP and others for trying to add a more well-developed viewpoint.
(Unrelated, my first new car was that very same late 80's red Honda Prelude with about 100 hp, but different wheels. Such an awesome car.)
Thank you to the OP and others for trying to add a more well-developed viewpoint.
(Unrelated, my first new car was that very same late 80's red Honda Prelude with about 100 hp, but different wheels. Such an awesome car.)