Drove a 991.2 - wow!
06-21-2018, 09:33 PM
#107
Rennlist Member
So much hate in this thread, I see another 911 and think nice color, etc, not mine is better, wow, haters gonna hate. In the end does it really matter what anybody else thinks, just drive it and enjoy it.
06-21-2018, 09:56 PM
#108
Even though the Hublots run quicker than the Rolexes?
06-21-2018, 10:37 PM
#110
Burning Brakes
Candidly, Porsche had to change to forced induction, as has almost everyone, to remain competitive and on par performance wise in its price range. That is the primary reason for the change. Otherwise, mid level sport sedans would be smoking 911s in performance numbers. Sedans such as Alfa Romeo QV, ATS, CTS, M3, C63 are all posting comparable or better times that 991.1 Ss for less $$$s. Forced induction in the base models was the only way to keep the numbers competitive and the profit margins viable.
Lineage?
Porsche 911s have always been about the Turbo since the 70s both on the track (935/956) and off the track (930). The Turbo was always THE car to have, especially for those of us growing up and doing the HS thing in the 80s.
Higher education posters in the 80s always had the 930 and the hot girl . . . and I have been fortunate to drive Porsche Turbos as my dedicated daily drivers since the late 80s. Candidly, I have owned about 20 NAs, in addition to my Turbos, including heavily modified NAs such as my 90 Ruf conversion with about $60k dumped into the engine alone, but the NAs always left me wanting, never got driven much and were generally sold off quickly and with very little miles. I always grabbed the keys to my Turbos.
Porsche does forced induction well and does it right. I think they only held off putting forced induction in the base models this long so as not to impair the marketability of their pinnacle Turbo models.
Facts is, we are super lucky that we can now grab forced induction Porsches with forced induction performance for reasonable prices.
What I don't get is we had a thread where guys like me could have FUN with this topic, anything went and no one was seriously mean and all offensive comments were meant in fun. My best friend and I always banter, I have a 991.2 C2S and he has a 991.1 Base. I shouldn't be but I'm shocked how long this thread has gone on. Don't get me wrong I like reading it because it is good to hear what folks like about each, but it shouldn't be done by slamming the other. They are both awesome. Can't imagine this conversation being anything but constructive and fun over on the 997.1 and 997.2 threads.
06-21-2018, 10:44 PM
#111
Candidly, Porsche had to change to forced induction, as has almost everyone, to remain competitive and on par performance wise in its price range. That is the primary reason for the change. Otherwise, mid level sport sedans would be smoking 911s in performance numbers. Sedans such as Alfa Romeo QV, ATS, CTS, M3, C63 are all posting comparable or better times that 991.1 Ss for less $$$s. Forced induction in the base models was the only way to keep the numbers competitive and the profit margins viable.
Lineage?
Porsche 911s have always been about the Turbo since the 70s both on the track (935/956) and off the track (930). The Turbo was always THE car to have, especially for those of us growing up and doing the HS thing in the 80s.
Higher education posters in the 80s always had the 930 and the hot girl . . . and I have been fortunate to drive Porsche Turbos as my dedicated daily drivers since the late 80s. Candidly, I have owned about 20 NAs, in addition to my Turbos, including heavily modified NAs such as my 90 Ruf conversion with about $60k dumped into the engine alone, but the NAs always left me wanting, never got driven much and were generally sold off quickly and with very little miles. I always grabbed the keys to my Turbos.
Porsche does forced induction well and does it right. I think they only held off putting forced induction in the base models this long so as not to impair the marketability of their pinnacle Turbo models.
Facts is, we are super lucky that we can now grab forced induction Porsches with forced induction performance for reasonable prices.
secondly, personally I think the 3.0t motor is much better than the old 3.6tt or the new 3.8tt. Sounds much better and is more responsive.
i owned a 997.1tt for 6 months and hated it. But I enjoyed the engine in the 991.2 base I drove. Not more than the 3.8 n/a, but close. I liked my n54 1m more than my 997.1 tt.
to me, the iconic Porsche’s of the last 15 years are the n/a gt cars, culminating with the phenomenal gt3 and rs. Certainly the turbo lineage is to be respected.
Thankfuljy for me, a good friend owns a 991.1 rs, that I get to experience. Truly incredible engineering.
i still think the 911 is the best sports car in the world for the money.
06-21-2018, 11:25 PM
#112
Rennlist Member
You're welcomed.
I have a turbo car. I hate the damned thing and the wife loves it. As far as I'm concerned it exists to remind me why the other 3 NA vehicles that we have reign supreme.
We drove the new .2 car too. It was a "wow" alright but not in a good way.
To each their own...
I have a turbo car. I hate the damned thing and the wife loves it. As far as I'm concerned it exists to remind me why the other 3 NA vehicles that we have reign supreme.
We drove the new .2 car too. It was a "wow" alright but not in a good way.
To each their own...
06-22-2018, 12:31 AM
#113
Nordschleife Master
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some good points. Though as a former e9x and f8x m3 owner, the f8x may be faster or as fast as my 991.1s, but handling is nowhere close. So it may be similar performance in a straight line but there is nothing like a 3100 lb 911 in that class of car. Same goes for the 991.2, can’t be touched by those cars. I know that’s not what you meant, just wanted to clarify
secondly, personally I think the 3.0t motor is much better than the old 3.6tt or the new 3.8tt. Sounds much better and is more responsive.
i owned a 997.1tt for 6 months and hated it. But I enjoyed the engine in the 991.2 base I drove. Not more than the 3.8 n/a, but close. I liked my n54 1m more than my 997.1 tt.
to me, the iconic Porsche’s of the last 15 years are the n/a gt cars, culminating with the phenomenal gt3 and rs. Certainly the turbo lineage is to be respected.
Thankfuljy for me, a good friend owns a 991.1 rs, that I get to experience. Truly incredible engineering.
i still think the 911 is the best sports car in the world for the money.
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna-seca-post-1988
I think most would disagree on the 3.0tt being better than the Mezger engine. That was one of the best cases of all time with an amazing heritage. They were bullet proof in my cars and I had some of them up to the 550 to 750 hp at wheels range and daily drove them. The Mezger is expensive and Porsche is all about the profit margin as well they should be.
Last edited by Doug H; 06-22-2018 at 01:05 AM.
06-22-2018, 01:58 AM
#114
No kidding I thought I'd stumbled into the dark recesses of a bimmerforum or a parallel universe - its a great reading over a nice glass of red. Exactly, drive, enjoy and appreciate
06-22-2018, 02:44 AM
#115
Drifting
While we are discussing engines, the 3.4 L NA base from the 991.1 generation does not get a lot of attention on RL but it is a fantastic car in its own right. I had one before moving on to a 3.8 L .1 GTS. In ways, the 3.4 L car seems less bloated than the 3.8. It is more nimble on its feet. It feels much less planted than the GTS - in a good way. More of a throwback 911, in ways. And it loves to rev. I would not give my GTS back for the 3.4 but man, that is a fun car to drive. If you have one, do yourself a favor and hold on to it!
06-22-2018, 06:13 AM
#116
Rennlist Member
06-22-2018, 07:09 AM
#117
Candidly, Porsche had to change to forced induction, as has almost everyone, to remain competitive and on par performance wise in its price range. That is the primary reason for the change. Otherwise, mid level sport sedans would be smoking 911s in performance numbers. Sedans such as Alfa Romeo QV, ATS, CTS, M3, C63 are all posting comparable or better times that 991.1 Ss for less $$$s. Forced induction in the base models was the only way to keep the numbers competitive and the profit margins viable.
Lineage?
Porsche 911s have always been about the Turbo since the 70s both on the track (935/956) and off the track (930). The Turbo was always THE car to have, especially for those of us growing up and doing the HS thing in the 80s.
Higher education posters in the 80s always had the 930 and the hot girl . . . and I have been fortunate to drive Porsche Turbos as my dedicated daily drivers since the late 80s. Candidly, I have owned about 20 NAs, in addition to my Turbos, including heavily modified NAs such as my 90 Ruf conversion with about $60k dumped into the engine alone, but the NAs always left me wanting, never got driven much and were generally sold off quickly and with very little miles. I always grabbed the keys to my Turbos.
Porsche does forced induction well and does it right. I think they only held off putting forced induction in the base models this long so as not to impair the marketability of their pinnacle Turbo models.
Facts is, we are super lucky that we can now grab forced induction Porsches with forced induction performance for reasonable prices.
Still, I also think nobody builds N/A engines like Porsche. I have ZERO negativity toward what Porsche accomplished with the 9A2 on a performance level. However, as mentioned above, Porsche pulled a masterpiece with the 9A1's as well. To me, it's even more impressive that an N/A 3.8 street (non GT) car can pull an 11.8 at 118 MPH with a 3.5 0-60 (which a 2012.5 CS tested at). That's unreal to me and an absolute testament to Porsche engineering magic. Porsche achieved a 7.37.9 on the Ring back in 2012.5 which is just a few ticks behind their 2017 .2 S run. Even the base 3.4 is capable of trapping at 115 with PDK and Chrono. That's an incredible feat for such a car with such moderate on-paper stats. Porsche IMO turns magic with both turbos and N/A's. The 991.1 Carreras are some of the fastest N/A street cars ever built (both in acceleration and track times). They topple far higher powered cars with forced induction and often even more displacement. Just as the 9A2's put up times far surpassing their on-paper stats and lay waste to cars with far greater paper-power figures. Porsche's "less is more" magic sauce is alive and well throughout.
some good points. Though as a former e9x and f8x m3 owner, the f8x may be faster or as fast as my 991.1s, but handling is nowhere close. So it may be similar performance in a straight line but there is nothing like a 3100 lb 911 in that class of car. Same goes for the 991.2, can’t be touched by those cars. I know that’s not what you meant, just wanted to clarify
secondly, personally I think the 3.0t motor is much better than the old 3.6tt or the new 3.8tt. Sounds much better and is more responsive.
i owned a 997.1tt for 6 months and hated it. But I enjoyed the engine in the 991.2 base I drove. Not more than the 3.8 n/a, but close. I liked my n54 1m more than my 997.1 tt.
to me, the iconic Porsche’s of the last 15 years are the n/a gt cars, culminating with the phenomenal gt3 and rs. Certainly the turbo lineage is to be respected.
Thankfuljy for me, a good friend owns a 991.1 rs, that I get to experience. Truly incredible engineering.
i still think the 911 is the best sports car in the world for the money.
While we are discussing engines, the 3.4 L NA base from the 991.1 generation does not get a lot of attention on RL but it is a fantastic car in its own right. I had one before moving on to a 3.8 L .1 GTS. In ways, the 3.4 L car seems less bloated than the 3.8. It is more nimble on its feet. It feels much less planted than the GTS - in a good way. More of a throwback 911, in ways. And it loves to rev. I would not give my GTS back for the 3.4 but man, that is a fun car to drive. If you have one, do yourself a favor and hold on to it!
).In conclusion: No hate toward either 991 gen from me. I fully credit both cars for what they are. But let's not fool ourselves. The entire nature of both 991's are completely different within the same chassis. Naturally preferences and driving impressions will be polarized.
The 992 will come out and go even further with the "comfy sophisticated missile with flawless performance" shift to the 911 lineage. Naturally, we'll see a lot of polarization toward that as well. Meanwhile, 99.99% of people couldn't tell the difference between any of our 911's. Go figure.
06-22-2018, 08:01 AM
#118
Originally Posted by bkrantz
Hi, Bemo. Come play with me at 10,000 ft above sea level and see what you think.
In fact I much prefer the hydraulic steering rack in the Bimmer than the electric crap in the Porsche.
See I'm an equal opportunity offender, my babies included
Have fun with the turbo motor boys, it's a missile if that's what you're after...
06-22-2018, 08:57 AM
#119
Nordschleife Master
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I doubt an F8x would turn a faster time on any track than a 991.1 S. There's a video from some UK test where a 991.1 base turned a faster time on some track than the F8x M4. They've got power, but man does the chassis turn to slop when pushed (which can make it a fun car to just be a hooligan in more than anything).
I have driven the M4 GTS and various F8Xs without Competition Package on Barber and NCM. They are twitchy and can be a handful. The Competition Package suspension is an improvement.
In fairness to a car I don't like, the F8X track times on most tracks are similar to the S and quicker than the 991.1 base and most of these times are non-Competition Package F8Xs.
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/bedfor...t-post-06-2008
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/vairano-handling-course
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autoca...handling-track
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim-short (1:11.9 v. 1:11.7)
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna-seca-post-1988
06-22-2018, 09:49 AM
#120
Let me preface this by saying I currently have a 2017 M3 manual Competition Package. This is will be first and last Bimmer. I don't like it . . ., but performance wise it is on par with the 991.1 S.
I have driven the M4 GTS and various F8Xs without Competition Package on Barber and NCM. They are twitchy and can be a handful. The Competition Package suspension is an improvement.
In fairness to a car I don't like, the F8X track times on most tracks are similar to the S and quicker than the 991.1 base and most of these times are non-Competition Package F8Xs.
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/bedfor...t-post-06-2008
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/vairano-handling-course
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autoca...handling-track
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim-short (1:11.9 v. 1:11.7)
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna-seca-post-1988
I have driven the M4 GTS and various F8Xs without Competition Package on Barber and NCM. They are twitchy and can be a handful. The Competition Package suspension is an improvement.
In fairness to a car I don't like, the F8X track times on most tracks are similar to the S and quicker than the 991.1 base and most of these times are non-Competition Package F8Xs.
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/bedfor...t-post-06-2008
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/vairano-handling-course
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autoca...handling-track
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim-short (1:11.9 v. 1:11.7)
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna-seca-post-1988
I hear you though on the M4. I do think they’re cool in ways, and those N/S55 engines are torque machines, but the word “sloppy” always comes to mind. It sounds like it’s a chore to tame (and not the good kind of chore). I always think back to that video where a guy at a car meet tried to “show off” and gives his M4 a little gas, before it ends up face first into hopping a curb. Seems like a fun car to have alongside a 911 though. If for no other reason, than to experience the whole “scalpel and hammer” thing. If I really had my choice though, I’d follow Bemo into that E92 M3.