Pirelli vs Michelin and noise debunked
03-26-2018, 08:25 AM
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Pirelli vs Michelin and noise debunked
I have seen posts within threads that touched on this. Also, at Rennlist we like to beat topics to death for a season before moving on
I thought it was interesting how others made claims that the sound levels did not change. My hypothesis is that this is incorrect based on every other car I have changed from Pirelli to Michelin; including 2 BMW's in the past 12 months. To do this, I did not simply measure the noise before and after; which I did as well. My belief is that the tire noise is significantly reduced even if a sound meter doesn't have a material change and I'd like to prove why. My results on the same roads, same day were .4 Decibels difference. This could just be a better lane and wavelength difference. Not a lot, but none the less more than others measured.
What was really interesting was taking a recording and playing with that at home. I don't have a decibel reading for this since I'd be measuring through audio gear and not the environment in the car. Here's what I did. Record and playing it back through Garage Band (very basic) and then isolating 700-1300 Hz. This is the frequency of the tires rolling on the road. The difference here is PROBABLY ~6db. Each 3 DB represents an increase of double. I say probably since I don't have the gear in portable form to measure in the car and only isolating this frequency range, also "probably" because it's really unfair to measure old vs new tires. But what I can say for certain is that the Michelin tires are in fact significantly quieter. What isn't quieter and what taints the [in car]results of simple measuring the sound/noise volume is the engine noise, the wind noise other than tires[windows], exhaust, intake, naggy wife and many other factors outside of the tire which are louder therefore the reading doesn't go down overall. So, to be redundant, the tire noise (~700-1300Hz) went down significantly but the rest of the car volume was unchanged and therefore made a decibel meter useless. Also - like a dyno; I'm not going to share the actula DB measurement because the roads and conditions make a significant material difference in the measurement and even the same road has many inconsistent variables.
Some fun nerdy articles:
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/d...1063/1.3273080
http://digilander.libero.it/d_rubatt...tire-noise.pdf
http://www.informex.info/Multi-coinc...oNoise_ppr.pdf
I thought it was interesting how others made claims that the sound levels did not change. My hypothesis is that this is incorrect based on every other car I have changed from Pirelli to Michelin; including 2 BMW's in the past 12 months. To do this, I did not simply measure the noise before and after; which I did as well. My belief is that the tire noise is significantly reduced even if a sound meter doesn't have a material change and I'd like to prove why. My results on the same roads, same day were .4 Decibels difference. This could just be a better lane and wavelength difference. Not a lot, but none the less more than others measured.
What was really interesting was taking a recording and playing with that at home. I don't have a decibel reading for this since I'd be measuring through audio gear and not the environment in the car. Here's what I did. Record and playing it back through Garage Band (very basic) and then isolating 700-1300 Hz. This is the frequency of the tires rolling on the road. The difference here is PROBABLY ~6db. Each 3 DB represents an increase of double. I say probably since I don't have the gear in portable form to measure in the car and only isolating this frequency range, also "probably" because it's really unfair to measure old vs new tires. But what I can say for certain is that the Michelin tires are in fact significantly quieter. What isn't quieter and what taints the [in car]results of simple measuring the sound/noise volume is the engine noise, the wind noise other than tires[windows], exhaust, intake, naggy wife and many other factors outside of the tire which are louder therefore the reading doesn't go down overall. So, to be redundant, the tire noise (~700-1300Hz) went down significantly but the rest of the car volume was unchanged and therefore made a decibel meter useless. Also - like a dyno; I'm not going to share the actula DB measurement because the roads and conditions make a significant material difference in the measurement and even the same road has many inconsistent variables.
Some fun nerdy articles:
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/d...1063/1.3273080
http://digilander.libero.it/d_rubatt...tire-noise.pdf
http://www.informex.info/Multi-coinc...oNoise_ppr.pdf
03-26-2018, 08:57 AM
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Interesting data. Funny that GM looked at road noise before some of the tire manufacturers? I also think the covering in the wheel wells
would have some effect on the noise as well as data. I have changed my TTS and my wife Cayenne to Michelin, my ears noticed
a difference. The cayenne has also felt like wheel wells that may(??) dampen the noise as well. The Pirellis that came withe the Cayenne
were very noisy. I couldn't take it and replaced them at 20k miles. I always thought Tire Rack should develop some kind of test to measure
road noise and compare it against other tires.
would have some effect on the noise as well as data. I have changed my TTS and my wife Cayenne to Michelin, my ears noticed
a difference. The cayenne has also felt like wheel wells that may(??) dampen the noise as well. The Pirellis that came withe the Cayenne
were very noisy. I couldn't take it and replaced them at 20k miles. I always thought Tire Rack should develop some kind of test to measure
road noise and compare it against other tires.
03-26-2018, 09:01 AM
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Interesting data. Funny that GM looked at road noise before some of the tire manufacturers? I also think the covering in the wheel wells
would have some effect on the noise as well as data. I have changed my TTS and my wife Cayenne to Michelin, my ears noticed
a difference. The cayenne has also felt like wheel wells that may(??) dampen the noise as well. The Pirellis that came withe the Cayenne
were very noisy. I couldn't take it and replaced them at 20k miles. I always thought Tire Rack should develop some kind of test to measure
road noise and compare it against other tires.
would have some effect on the noise as well as data. I have changed my TTS and my wife Cayenne to Michelin, my ears noticed
a difference. The cayenne has also felt like wheel wells that may(??) dampen the noise as well. The Pirellis that came withe the Cayenne
were very noisy. I couldn't take it and replaced them at 20k miles. I always thought Tire Rack should develop some kind of test to measure
road noise and compare it against other tires.
Tire rack won't actually rate anything for fear of being sued or losing pricing from less favorably reviewed brands. All of their rating are from consumer input data.
03-26-2018, 09:18 AM
#4
I have seen posts within threads that touched on this. Also, at Rennlist we like to beat topics to death for a season before moving on
...So, to be redundant, the tire noise (~700-1300Hz) went down significantly but the rest of the car volume was unchanged and therefore made a decibel meter useless.
...So, to be redundant, the tire noise (~700-1300Hz) went down significantly but the rest of the car volume was unchanged and therefore made a decibel meter useless.
1) we seem to beat a topic to death for more than a season before moving on as I've seen some topics a couple years old brought back to life ....
2) so the tires really are quieter but we can't tell because the overall noise level in our cars is so high that the tires aren't really the critical issue ... guess that would make sense since the folks that are focusing on tire noise do see a difference vs. others that are focusing on the overall noise and don't notice a difference.
03-26-2018, 09:25 AM
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Couple of comments:
1) we seem to beat a topic to death for more than a season before moving on as I've seen some topics a couple years old brought back to life ....
2) so the tires really are quieter but we can't tell because the overall noise level in our cars is so high that the tires aren't really the critical issue ... guess that would make sense since the folks that are focusing on tire noise do see a difference vs. others that are focusing on the overall noise and don't notice a difference.
1) we seem to beat a topic to death for more than a season before moving on as I've seen some topics a couple years old brought back to life ....
2) so the tires really are quieter but we can't tell because the overall noise level in our cars is so high that the tires aren't really the critical issue ... guess that would make sense since the folks that are focusing on tire noise do see a difference vs. others that are focusing on the overall noise and don't notice a difference.
03-26-2018, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by R_Rated
Tire rack won't actually rate anything for fear of being sued or losing pricing from less favorably reviewed brands. All of their rating are from consumer input data.
03-26-2018, 10:47 AM
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I have seen posts within threads that touched on this. Also, at Rennlist we like to beat topics to death for a season before moving on
I thought it was interesting how others made claims that the sound levels did not change. My hypothesis is that this is incorrect based on every other car I have changed from Pirelli to Michelin; including 2 BMW's in the past 12 months. To do this, I did not simply measure the noise before and after; which I did as well. My belief is that the tire noise is significantly reduced even if a sound meter doesn't have a material change and I'd like to prove why. My results on the same roads, same day were .4 Decibels difference. This could just be a better lane and wavelength difference. Not a lot, but none the less more than others measured.
What was really interesting was taking a recording and playing with that at home. I don't have a decibel reading for this since I'd be measuring through audio gear and not the environment in the car. Here's what I did. Record and playing it back through Garage Band (very basic) and then isolating 700-1300 Hz. This is the frequency of the tires rolling on the road. The difference here is PROBABLY ~6db. Each 3 DB represents an increase of double. I say probably since I don't have the gear in portable form to measure in the car and only isolating this frequency range, also "probably" because it's really unfair to measure old vs new tires. But what I can say for certain is that the Michelin tires are in fact significantly quieter. What isn't quieter and what taints the [in car]results of simple measuring the sound/noise volume is the engine noise, the wind noise other than tires[windows], exhaust, intake, naggy wife and many other factors outside of the tire which are louder therefore the reading doesn't go down overall. So, to be redundant, the tire noise (~700-1300Hz) went down significantly but the rest of the car volume was unchanged and therefore made a decibel meter useless. Also - like a dyno; I'm not going to share the actula DB measurement because the roads and conditions make a significant material difference in the measurement and even the same road has many inconsistent variables.
Some fun nerdy articles:
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/d...1063/1.3273080
http://digilander.libero.it/d_rubatt...tire-noise.pdf
http://www.informex.info/Multi-coinc...oNoise_ppr.pdf
I thought it was interesting how others made claims that the sound levels did not change. My hypothesis is that this is incorrect based on every other car I have changed from Pirelli to Michelin; including 2 BMW's in the past 12 months. To do this, I did not simply measure the noise before and after; which I did as well. My belief is that the tire noise is significantly reduced even if a sound meter doesn't have a material change and I'd like to prove why. My results on the same roads, same day were .4 Decibels difference. This could just be a better lane and wavelength difference. Not a lot, but none the less more than others measured.
What was really interesting was taking a recording and playing with that at home. I don't have a decibel reading for this since I'd be measuring through audio gear and not the environment in the car. Here's what I did. Record and playing it back through Garage Band (very basic) and then isolating 700-1300 Hz. This is the frequency of the tires rolling on the road. The difference here is PROBABLY ~6db. Each 3 DB represents an increase of double. I say probably since I don't have the gear in portable form to measure in the car and only isolating this frequency range, also "probably" because it's really unfair to measure old vs new tires. But what I can say for certain is that the Michelin tires are in fact significantly quieter. What isn't quieter and what taints the [in car]results of simple measuring the sound/noise volume is the engine noise, the wind noise other than tires[windows], exhaust, intake, naggy wife and many other factors outside of the tire which are louder therefore the reading doesn't go down overall. So, to be redundant, the tire noise (~700-1300Hz) went down significantly but the rest of the car volume was unchanged and therefore made a decibel meter useless. Also - like a dyno; I'm not going to share the actula DB measurement because the roads and conditions make a significant material difference in the measurement and even the same road has many inconsistent variables.
Some fun nerdy articles:
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/d...1063/1.3273080
http://digilander.libero.it/d_rubatt...tire-noise.pdf
http://www.informex.info/Multi-coinc...oNoise_ppr.pdf
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03-26-2018, 10:50 AM
#8
I suspect the noise for tyres on different surfaces might vary as well (ie both 73db in the test but perhaps some concrete roads show different results)
Just a thought !
Just a thought !
03-26-2018, 10:53 AM
#9
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https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=226
Peter
03-26-2018, 10:57 AM
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Obviously you haven't read any of there performance reviews. They rate competing tires on wet and dry traction, skid pad,Autox/road course etc.
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=226
Peter
03-26-2018, 12:21 PM
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I don't at all doubt that different tires will have different noise characteristics, but the road surface contributes greatly.
Having driven to both coasts on several occasions on Tire Rack Extreme Performance rated tires (Bridgestones and Yokohamas) I can say that the noise level varied from "Not a Lexus, but I can live with this" to "This is ridiculous", all depending on the road surface.
03-26-2018, 01:14 PM
#12
I have seen posts within threads that touched on this. Also, at Rennlist we like to beat topics to death for a season before moving on
I thought it was interesting how others made claims that the sound levels did not change. My hypothesis is that this is incorrect based on every other car I have changed from Pirelli to Michelin; including 2 BMW's in the past 12 months. To do this, I did not simply measure the noise before and after; which I did as well. My belief is that the tire noise is significantly reduced even if a sound meter doesn't have a material change and I'd like to prove why. My results on the same roads, same day were .4 Decibels difference. This could just be a better lane and wavelength difference. Not a lot, but none the less more than others measured.
What was really interesting was taking a recording and playing with that at home. I don't have a decibel reading for this since I'd be measuring through audio gear and not the environment in the car. Here's what I did. Record and playing it back through Garage Band (very basic) and then isolating 700-1300 Hz. This is the frequency of the tires rolling on the road. The difference here is PROBABLY ~6db. Each 3 DB represents an increase of double. I say probably since I don't have the gear in portable form to measure in the car and only isolating this frequency range, also "probably" because it's really unfair to measure old vs new tires. But what I can say for certain is that the Michelin tires are in fact significantly quieter. What isn't quieter and what taints the [in car]results of simple measuring the sound/noise volume is the engine noise, the wind noise other than tires[windows], exhaust, intake, naggy wife and many other factors outside of the tire which are louder therefore the reading doesn't go down overall. So, to be redundant, the tire noise (~700-1300Hz) went down significantly but the rest of the car volume was unchanged and therefore made a decibel meter useless. Also - like a dyno; I'm not going to share the actula DB measurement because the roads and conditions make a significant material difference in the measurement and even the same road has many inconsistent variables.
Some fun nerdy articles:
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/d...1063/1.3273080
http://digilander.libero.it/d_rubatt...tire-noise.pdf
http://www.informex.info/Multi-coinc...oNoise_ppr.pdf
I thought it was interesting how others made claims that the sound levels did not change. My hypothesis is that this is incorrect based on every other car I have changed from Pirelli to Michelin; including 2 BMW's in the past 12 months. To do this, I did not simply measure the noise before and after; which I did as well. My belief is that the tire noise is significantly reduced even if a sound meter doesn't have a material change and I'd like to prove why. My results on the same roads, same day were .4 Decibels difference. This could just be a better lane and wavelength difference. Not a lot, but none the less more than others measured.
What was really interesting was taking a recording and playing with that at home. I don't have a decibel reading for this since I'd be measuring through audio gear and not the environment in the car. Here's what I did. Record and playing it back through Garage Band (very basic) and then isolating 700-1300 Hz. This is the frequency of the tires rolling on the road. The difference here is PROBABLY ~6db. Each 3 DB represents an increase of double. I say probably since I don't have the gear in portable form to measure in the car and only isolating this frequency range, also "probably" because it's really unfair to measure old vs new tires. But what I can say for certain is that the Michelin tires are in fact significantly quieter. What isn't quieter and what taints the [in car]results of simple measuring the sound/noise volume is the engine noise, the wind noise other than tires[windows], exhaust, intake, naggy wife and many other factors outside of the tire which are louder therefore the reading doesn't go down overall. So, to be redundant, the tire noise (~700-1300Hz) went down significantly but the rest of the car volume was unchanged and therefore made a decibel meter useless. Also - like a dyno; I'm not going to share the actula DB measurement because the roads and conditions make a significant material difference in the measurement and even the same road has many inconsistent variables.
Some fun nerdy articles:
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/d...1063/1.3273080
http://digilander.libero.it/d_rubatt...tire-noise.pdf
http://www.informex.info/Multi-coinc...oNoise_ppr.pdf
My money's on the new set being the quiet set. What did I win?
03-26-2018, 01:29 PM
#13
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Road surface is indeed a huge part of the equation. "Huger," in fact, than the tires.
Besides the obvious (replacing worn out tires with new ones) and the "less" obvious (tire model matters as much as manufacturer), I suspect R Rated makes a good point: db doesn't tell the whole story. Anyone who has ever run a sound board can tell you that much—a singer with a clean voice or a guitarist with clean licks can be cranked to 11 then 111 without offending an ear, while a hack can't be turned to 7 or 8 without becoming painful to listen to, prompting you to turn it down.
While models matter, I'll never forget moving from Pirelli P Zero Neros to Michelin Pilot Sport AS3s on another car: The Michelins were noticeably wider at the same size, eliminated the P Zero Neros' tendency to wander and squirm on a local bridge's lined pavement, were both grippier and more predictable near the limit in the dry, were MUCH better in the rain, and....were far, far quieter.
My guess is that, generally speaking, Michelin is very hard to beat when it comes to road noise and refinement.
Besides the obvious (replacing worn out tires with new ones) and the "less" obvious (tire model matters as much as manufacturer), I suspect R Rated makes a good point: db doesn't tell the whole story. Anyone who has ever run a sound board can tell you that much—a singer with a clean voice or a guitarist with clean licks can be cranked to 11 then 111 without offending an ear, while a hack can't be turned to 7 or 8 without becoming painful to listen to, prompting you to turn it down.
While models matter, I'll never forget moving from Pirelli P Zero Neros to Michelin Pilot Sport AS3s on another car: The Michelins were noticeably wider at the same size, eliminated the P Zero Neros' tendency to wander and squirm on a local bridge's lined pavement, were both grippier and more predictable near the limit in the dry, were MUCH better in the rain, and....were far, far quieter.
My guess is that, generally speaking, Michelin is very hard to beat when it comes to road noise and refinement.
03-26-2018, 01:40 PM
#14
Drifting
Seems the overwhelming feeling on here is that Michelins are generally superior in most ways to Pirellis.
So presumably, the motivation of Porsche to seemingly fit Pirellis on most of their new cars is down to their lower cost compared to Michelins?
I reckon if Porsche made it an option to have Michelins instead of Pirellis fitted (for a small charge equal to the added cost to Porsche) that would be a popular option box to tick!
So presumably, the motivation of Porsche to seemingly fit Pirellis on most of their new cars is down to their lower cost compared to Michelins?
I reckon if Porsche made it an option to have Michelins instead of Pirellis fitted (for a small charge equal to the added cost to Porsche) that would be a popular option box to tick!
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Johndani (11-15-2020)
03-26-2018, 02:00 PM
#15
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Seems the overwhelming feeling on here is that Michelins are generally superior in most ways to Pirellis.
So presumably, the motivation of Porsche to seemingly fit Pirellis on most of their new cars is down to their lower cost compared to Michelins?
I reckon if Porsche made it an option to have Michelins instead of Pirellis fitted (for a small charge equal to the added cost to Porsche) that would be a popular option box to tick!
So presumably, the motivation of Porsche to seemingly fit Pirellis on most of their new cars is down to their lower cost compared to Michelins?
I reckon if Porsche made it an option to have Michelins instead of Pirellis fitted (for a small charge equal to the added cost to Porsche) that would be a popular option box to tick!
http://flatsixes.com/cars/porsche-tu...ter-than-ever/
With all that said, given the option I'd choose a set of Michelins over Pirellis. I just prefer Michelin's sensibilities in the way it makes its compromises for a driver—and suspect your option would indeed be popular, but that they'd never offer it if for no other reason than manufacturing hassle. Wheel-tire sets take up a lot of space, especially when they are 991-sized. As I understand it, OE tires come down to making sure there's a steady supply...so 2-3 vendors are critical.
