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I can see reacher's point. Even as a handling guy rather than a horsepower guy, there's something to be said for a seriously fast car from time to time. I started in an 80-hp 914 and was happy in that car most of the time, but sure didn't mind the CGT's 605 hp when I had it.
And the 991.2 Turbo S is a fantastic car. If I wanted PDK, I could see wanting one because the whole car is so well figured out. You can read my thoughts on that here, if you like... http://flatsixes.com/cars/porsche-tu...ter-than-ever/
I can see reacher's point. Even as a handling guy rather than a horsepower guy, there's something to be said for a seriously fast car from time to time. I started in an 80-hp 914 and was happy in that car most of the time, but sure didn't mind the CGT's 605 hp when I had it.
And the 991.2 Turbo S is a fantastic car. If I wanted PDK, I could see wanting one because the whole car is so well figured out. You can read my thoughts on that here, if you like... http://flatsixes.com/cars/porsche-tu...ter-than-ever/
Great article! I do love the Turbos, and I had a 997.1 TT that I was very happy with. I was trying to get a 991.2 Turbo S cab, but my dealer over-promised and couldn't get me an allocation like they said they could. I tested a GTS from another dealer and fell in love immediately and went that route instead. I'm very curious to see how the 992 Turbo S will be.
Then why do people get anything other than a base Carrera? Why do Porsche improve performance with every generation? Because people like more power, better handling, better braking, etc. Even though the base Carrera is "enough" car for anyone on the street, people want more. Heck, you can't even extract a Camry's full ability on the street legally so even a base Carrera is overkill according to this logic.
The same reason we buy Venti Coffee, supersize value meals, Tomahawk steaks, 6K square foot homes, bespoke suites, mont blanc pens. The same reason we buy anything that isn't the "base" option.
I think the Turbo S would disagree with you there. Ideally I'd like Turbo S power in a nimbler, sportier package like the GTS. I compromised and got a GTS because power isn't the most important thing to me, but if I could have everything in the same package you bet I'd get it in a heartbeat.
Then why do people get anything other than a base Carrera? Why do Porsche improve performance with every generation? Because people like more power, better handling, better braking, etc. Even though the base Carrera is "enough" car for anyone on the street, people want more. Heck, you can't even extract a Camry's full ability on the street legally so even a base Carrera is overkill according to this logic.
Wow. All I said was I was agreeing with R's point about extracting performance out of the car. I love HP.
Base is more than enough car for most, most of us pay more for options because of ego. Easy profit for Porsche. How many of us truly drive as Ross Bentley instructed, with foot on throttle or brake, or vice versa, as quickly as possible?
"When you are moving your foot from the throttle to the the brake pedal, or vice versa, it must be done as quickly as possible. Your right foot should always be either on the throttle (even if it's a light steady throttle) or the brakes. Don't waste time doing nothing, with your foot in between the two. You should never be coasting." Ultimate Speed Secrets, Ross Bentley, p. 15.
Try doing that with a base and tell me if it's not fast enough.
It's not all I care about, but it's a nice bonus to have a lot of power in addition to everything else. I'm happy with the compromise because the car is phenomenal.
It comes down to the question of whether the juice is worth the squeeze. I think any car enthusiast will take extra HP, but the question is whether the extra power is worth the premium that Porsche charges. It's hard to present an argument that 370 HP in a 3200 lb car is inadequate. An argument that resonates with me is that I want and can afford the premium for the extra 50 HP in the S, whether or not I may actually need it.
The only reason to own an S over a base
.
Can't afford to Track a GT3?!?! Its the next best thing to it... 991.1 S naturally aspirated.
SPASM / PDK / Sports Exhaust / Sports Seats / Sport Chrono
Speaking personally, I found the .2 base uninspiring during a couple of test drives. It's a victim of its own nearly perfect balance in a way. So quiet (in 911 terms, at least), refined, not a torque monster so as not to feel too turbo, while linear enough to feel almost N/A, yet not as linear as an N/A, less turbo lag than a big turbo, more turbo lag than an N/A, etc. etc. I haven't driven an S (rode in one) but I will say the GTS was MUCH more fun. Being that these are such refined and sophisticated cars now, I feel the extra shove of torque went a long way in making it feel more hyper and memorable. Though, the GTS I drove was like $40K more than the base I drove. Soo.... we should expect as much.
As is known; I prefer an N/A powerband as the cons to a turbo just overpower the pros to me, but personally, when I drive a turbo, I want to get the one thing out of it that can transmit its (the turbo aspect) character best to me.... which is boost coming on strong, and a shove. It's a very personal preference, however. I'm kind of an extremist in that if I want an N/A feel and am after precise response, I'd rather get an N/A, and if I get a turbo, knowing that regardless of turbo size and boost it's still going to affect the sound of the car like a turbo does, I'd rather a more brutal torque wave. At the same time, I hate turbo lag, and the base does noticeably have less of it than the GTS.
If you want the one that can dance within every line the best without crossing over too much on any one, then it's "worth it" over the bigger turbo models.
That's my outlook on it, if I were in the market for a .2 911.
Speaking personally, I found the .2 base uninspiring during a couple of test drives. It's a victim of its own nearly perfect balance in a way. So quiet (in 911 terms, at least), refined, not a torque monster so as not to feel too turbo, while linear enough to feel almost N/A, yet not as linear as an N/A, less turbo lag than a big turbo, more turbo lag than an N/A, etc. etc. I haven't driven an S (rode in one) but I will say the GTS was MUCH more fun. Being that these are such refined and sophisticated cars now, I feel the extra shove of torque went a long way in making it feel more hyper and memorable. Though, the GTS I drove was like $40K more than the base I drove. Soo.... we should expect as much.
As is known; I prefer an N/A powerband as the cons to a turbo just overpower the pros to me, but personally, when I drive a turbo, I want to get the one thing out of it that can transmit its (the turbo aspect) character best to me.... which is boost coming on strong, and a shove. It's a very personal preference, however. I'm kind of an extremist in that if I want an N/A feel and am after precise response, I'd rather get an N/A, and if I get a turbo, knowing that regardless of turbo size and boost it's still going to affect the sound of the car like a turbo does, I'd rather a more brutal torque wave. At the same time, I hate turbo lag, and the base does noticeably have less of it than the GTS.
If you want the one that can dance within every line the best without crossing over too much on any one, then it's "worth it" over the bigger turbo models.
That's my outlook on it, if I were in the market for a .2 911.
Ironically enough that is the exact reason why I really like the .2 base engine. It's like goldilocks for me and a well done compromise by Porsche *in my opinion*
It retains some NA characteristics but it's obviously not a NA engine. You can wind it out and feel somewhat consistent, responsive, strong power delivery north of 2500 RPM to near redline from the "butt test" with very little turbo lag. It retains some turbo characteristics that you get a good shove around 2500 RPM on WOT, but it's not a TurboS where you literally get slammed into your seat on WOT once you pass the "lag zone" and then runs out of breath near redline.
I said it before but funny enough my biggest complaint is only the MPG which is supposed to be one of the reasons to switch to turbocharging, I am averaging 15 MPG in the .2 C4 when I was averaging 18.5 MPG driving a .1 C2 (AWD likely impacting some of that as well I guess). Sound for me is plenty good with the windows *up*, I have PSE and hate the farts, but the actual noise from the engine sounds as loud and aggressive from the 9A1 3.4L engine, but definitely nowhere near as raspy. When the windows are down, yes you will hear the turbo vacuum noise for better or worse.
ADmittedly I don't have any seat time in the .2 C2S but I've also driven the .2 RWD GTS and for me that had much more "turbo" like characteristics as you get that huge shove when the turbos kick in after a bit more lag, and I could not wind the engine out as I would be at triple digit speeds
But in my experience with the new engine this year, I initially felt like I had made a mistake going for a new .2 C4 rather than a CPO .1 C2 or C4S which is what I was cross shopping, but it turns out I'm very pleasantly happy and surprised by the new car and it made me feel more trusting of Porsche as they face these new challenges to continue to build an amazing sports car. The base engine in the .2 really hits a sweet spot (again for me), and actually is really memorable (to me) for some reason once I stopped fixating on the fact that it is this new, smaller, unorthodox flat 6 engine that *has* to just suck compared to the .1 9A1 motors. Pete (000 Magazine) seems to agree that the .2 base engine really is quite a treat, and that guy definitely has much more experience with Porsche and 911s than I do so that convinces me its not just my imagination lol
Last edited by sampelligrino; 01-19-2018 at 09:42 PM.
Reason: blacked out and forgot to mention turbo lag lol
Ironically enough that is the exact reason why I really like the .2 base engine. It's like goldilocks for me and a well done compromise by Porsche *in my opinion*
It retains some NA characteristics but it's obviously not a NA engine. You can wind it out and feel somewhat consistent, strong power delivery north of 2500 RPM to near redline from the "butt test." It retains some turbo characteristics that you get a good shove around 2500 RPM on WOT, but it's not a TurboS where you literally get slammed into your seat on WOT and then runs out of breath near redline.
I said it before but funny enough my biggest complaint is only the MPG which is supposed to be one of the reasons to switch to turbocharging, I am averaging 15 MPG in the .2 C4 when I was averaging 18.5 MPG driving a .1 C2 (AWD likely impacting some of that as well I guess). Sound for me is plenty good with the windows *up*, I have PSE and hate the farts, but the actual noise from the engine sounds as loud and aggressive from the 9A1 3.4L engine, but definitely nowhere near as raspy. When the windows are down, yes you will hear the turbo vacuum noise for better or worse.
ADmittedly I don't have any seat time in the .2 C2S but I've also driven the .2 RWD GTS and for me that had much more "turbo" like characteristics as you get that huge shove when the turbos kick in and I could not wind the engine out as I would be at triple digit speeds
But in my experience with the new engine this year, I initially felt like I had made a mistake going for a new .2 C4 rather than a CPO .1 C2 or C4S which is what I was cross shopping, but it turns out I'm very pleasantly happy and surprised by the new car and it made me feel more trusting of Porsche as they face these new challenges to continue to build an amazing sports car. The base engine in the .2 really hits a sweet spot (again for me), and actually is really memorable (to me) for some reason once I stopped fixating on the fact that it is this new, smaller, unorthodox flat 6 engine that *has* to just suck compared to the .1 9A1 motors. Pete (000 Magazine) seems to agree that the .2 base engine really is quite a treat, and that guy definitely has much more experience with Porsche and 911s than I do so that convinces me its not just my imagination lol
Definitely a good and understandable outlook. And I see exactly what you're saying. To be fair, the turbo characteristics as a whole with the smaller engine just doesn't connect with me, I just can't get myself to grow into it, at least not yet. Though the GTS was fun (but still, a bit too much turbo lag, like you said 'too much power' so I couldn't rev it out which is the whole point of a 911 to me.... instead I was getting sideways like I was in a Challenger.... admittedly very fun on a test drive but nothing I'd want to do when I have to foot the bill for those tires). For whatever reasons, the .2 base's I drove (the first one I really got some time with, I wrote a long review of on this forum, called it one of the most boring test drives I've been on, so I wanted to drive another to be sure) just emit very little to me. Don't like the sound note or volume level nearly as much as 911 N/A's I'm acclimated to, and it feels almost too clinical in how well it does everything, but doesn't pop out in anything (I'll call it my "least quirky car of the year" award.... but I personally tend to like imperfections and quirks that evoke character.. especially on sports cars). It built speed in a way where I felt like I was in a capsule, I probably haven't been in a car where I had such little idea of how fast I was going to such a degree (which says a lot as my Macan and .1 always shock me when I look at the speedo, themselves). But on the other hand, I guess on a very fundamental and technically-engineering level, that's the best complimentary criticism you can get from someone who has a fairly negative outlook on a car....
Several of those nitpicks transfer over to the new GTS as well for me, but in terms of which gave me a bigger thrill and more memorable experience on an initial impression circumstance, the GTS just seemed disproportionately higher.
Definitely a good and understandable outlook. And I see exactly what you're saying. To be fair, the turbo characteristics as a whole with the smaller engine just doesn't connect with me, I just can't get myself to grow into it, at least not yet. Though the GTS was fun (but still, a bit too much turbo lag, like you said 'too much power' so I couldn't rev it out which is the whole point of a 911 to me.... instead I was getting sideways like I was in a Challenger.... admittedly very fun on a test drive but nothing I'd want to do when I have to foot the bill for those tires). For whatever reasons, the .2 base's I drove (the first one I really got some time with, I wrote a long review of on this forum, called it one of the most boring test drives I've been on, so I wanted to drive another to be sure) just emit very little to me. Don't like the sound note or volume level nearly as much as 911 N/A's I'm acclimated to, and it feels almost too clinical in how well it does everything, but doesn't pop out in anything (I'll call it my "least quirky car of the year" award.... but I personally tend to like imperfections and quirks that evoke character.. especially on sports cars). It built speed in a way where I felt like I was in a capsule, I probably haven't been in a car where I had such little idea of how fast I was going to such a degree (which says a lot as my Macan and .1 always shock me when I look at the speedo, themselves). But on the other hand, I guess on a very fundamental and technically-engineering level, that's the best complimentary criticism you can get from someone who has a fairly negative outlook on a car....
I will say that when I first took delivery of the car and drove it, I actually would agree with you. It felt very clinical, precise, and emotionless - coming from a .1 C2. But for some reason, the more I drove it and reached break-in, then passed break-in, the car became more involving, I started seeing more emotions out of the engine and recognizing the engine's personality and capability. Kind of hard to explain, maybe it was a mental thing. But the more I drive the car now, the more I am enjoying it and particularly the engine. Since I only drive on the street and canyons, it's the perfect engine *for me* with torque to make daily driving fun without making the engine scream in front of pedestrians, and it has power but not so much power that I can at least wind it out and hit redline in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd (sometimes) lol on freeways.
I remember starting the .1 C2 for the first time and driving it for the first time, and for sure that was more of an emotional experience which you can argue is what these cars are about. It was the opposite for me, where the *more* I drive the .2 C4, the more emotions I start feeling as I am more perceptive to the engine for what it is - a really well done "best of both worlds" engine which I believe Porsche really, really focused on as they knew the new 9A2 motors would elicit big controversy. Once you have that frame of mind, the engine kind of amazes you that it gives you positives from a NA engine, and positives from a turbo engine, while trying to minimize the negatives (low torque/wind out requirement for NA, and turbo lag/non-linear power delivery peaking in middle RPMs then dropping off). The base engine IMO is perfect for daily driving on the street (0 experience or say for tracking it) & for the street I would not want any more power, emphasis on *I* lol. I feel like the base engine does this best of NA and turbo worlds compared to my experience with the .2 GTS and I would *guess* the .2 C2S because of higher boost/reliance on the turbos for the HP/torque numbers but could be wrong there.
Now you'll ask why am I getting a GT3 and that is because of the looks/"poster status" - it has been my wallpaper on my laptop for the past 3+ years! Had to try it. Sure NA engine will be great I am sure (I doubt on the street and canyons I will tap into more than 50% of the engines capability), but wanted the wing/CL wheels/the whole package. Just eye candy to me.
01-18-2018, 12:27 PM
