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Porsche again sets new records for deliveries

 
Old 01-15-2018, 06:47 PM
  #46  
BlackBeauty
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Originally Posted by evilfij
While I am sure they hedge, I doubt that they are fully hedged for fx.
Check out their segment reporting (separate company f/s on line).
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Old 01-15-2018, 06:50 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Dude174 View Post
You would know better than us, but I thought autoblog and some of those sites posting the spy photos the past year all said it's a new chassis for the sportscars under VAG umbrella. I don't remember the acronym MLB or something - similar to the new panamera (I think I read it right that Porsche is lead engineer for this combined chassis) while the new cayenne is under the new engineered chassis by Audi?
Maybe, maybe not, in terms of me knowing better. The next generation or two could break with what we saw in the 986/996>987/997>981/991 progression—leaving the 982 as something of a chassis orphan. I'm betting against that, however—though I note it as a guess. Have been on fewer regular model press trips lately, and have been a "bit" busy building a new company.

It would make sense that the Porsche sports cars move over to an MLB/MQB/etc platform under VW Group in the longer (or shorter?) run...and time will tell. But I still see a fair bit of 991 greenhouse in the spy photos and the 991 platform is young in light of the 911 and 996/997 platforms before it. Perhaps those other outlets heard the VAG shared platform is coming and are assuming it's with the next 911? I have seen a lot of bad information over the years, even from otherwise great (!) outlets. It would actually be funny to compile all of it, as I often got the same photos ("Look! It's the 996 Turbo!" when it was just a 996 C2 with black bumpers testing the Aerokit I on 17s) from spy shooters hungry to sell pics.

If one really wants to know, it would be pretty easy: Just superimpose the 992 greenhouse we are seeing over a similar pic of a 991. It would be telling, though not conclusive. When I look at spy pics of the 992 Cabriolet, I think there might be a 991-based unibody lurking under it. When I look at spy pics of the coupe, I wonder about the indented rear side windows—but they don't prove anything. The proof only comes when the first photos drop, followed by the actual launches with hard info and a chance to speak with the engineers. Everything else, I usually find, is speculation.

Last edited by stout; 01-16-2018 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 01-15-2018, 07:53 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by BlackBeauty View Post
Well - that's related a little more to tariffs, VAT and supply chain issues, however it's a great point nonetheless. UK as of today is still in EU as I'm sure you know.

I wonder if the whole RHD has any impact?
What I know of having done TV deals in Germany, they are very, very thorough.
Nothing open to interpretation, no loose ends or ambiguity....
You get exactly what was agreed upon, I love doing business with German Co's.
There is a flip side though, they do not like changes... probably because there is little imagination or creativity as it pertains to work-arounds.

Which reminds me of something that was mentioned in this interview... the interviewee stated that PAG would have to reduce the amount of allocations to GB (he stated a very high percentage but I forgot) as those we're part of the EU trade agreement.
Clearly unhappy about the impact it would have on PAG sales, he also stated that now that the Brits had made their choice... the implementation of these changes would take place on PAG's timetable regardless of when the actual GB EU withdraw would take place.

I think what we are seeing here is the resulting German expedited efficiency regarding the implementation of said changes.
Or perhaps it's just a "friendly reminder" of all the work the Brits are causing the Germans

Regardless, I believe this is just the beginning, we will see more going forward from other countries and industries.
Time will tell.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:30 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by stout View Post
You do see the extraordinary irony in the above, do you not?

A 991 Carrera (any 991 Carrera) arguing as "us," the purist? There's a long line of 997, 996, 993, 964, and torsion-bar 911 enthusiasts—not to mention 930, 964T, 993TT, 996TT, and 997TT drivers—who would have a field day with this. Or those 991.2 enthusiasts who also drive 356s, 914s, 912s, 914s, 944s, etc.

Yes, I am pokin atcha a bit, and in good humor. A lot of what you say is something that is same as it ever was, and your 991.1 was a stop along a curve that began long, long before the first 991 rolled out the door. People complained about the refinements in the 356B, and Car and Driver ran an op-ed that stated the 911 SC was the end because it was as far as the 911 concept could be taken. Ahem.



We very much agree here.



You are right: The 911 will keep progressing. That's Porsche being Porsche. If a stop along the way suits one of us better, there are plenty of stops along the way. I like some stops better than others—the G50 3.2, the 964 RS 3.8, 993 RS, 997 RS 4.0, 997 GTS, and 991.2 being some of the ones I've liked best so far—and, like you, I fear the 992 may jump the shark. Has China had an effect? Undoubtedly. But I think the real question is whether the progression you mention is a matter of China or merely a tipping point (for you or me, personally, or a real one that's harder to nail down) along a far longer continuum—one that dates back to the 1950s. I believe it's the latter—but there are still great, raw, imperfect cars FULL of fun out there in 2018, if you look for them. The Fiat 500 Abarth comes to mind (as a car I had might have had more fun in, more of the time, than I did in my GT4), as does the Alfa 4C (pity about the transmission). So do some of Lotus' offerings, and the GT350 has a lot of appeal for me. I hear good things about the Civic Type R, but even for a guy who had a bug-eye WRX, that's a lot to look at. Ouch. After that, I too am surprised at how few new cars in 2018 appeal to me. The 991.2 Carrera/T/S/GTS and GT3 Touring might be the only other ones...
True, there are still true pleasure seekers, but even those are compromised. I feel the days of getting something both raw AND refined are diminishing. The 911 isn’t raw enough- outside of the GT3 (which will likely go turbo next gen), the Alfa is too raw, the Mustang is a Mustang, the Vette is a Vette. The 911 used to do such a good job of walking that line. And you’re right, the 991.1 is the last of a long line (I guess that’s what I mean by “us’s”, and it itself is very refined and isolated compared to the old, which is why for me the gruffer N/A and even slight lack of chassis refinement are a necessary mix. But we all know these things are personal preferences and have been down that road plenty, hehe).

But by “us’s” I was referring more to specifically buyers of 991.1’s in U.S (about 9-10,xxxK units per each year sold) vs .2 3.0 turbo buyers which went straight to 7,xxxK for the first year, into a considerable YoY decline the next year as GT3’s took a decent chunk of the flat total sales.

So essentially what I mean is, there will be a lot more .1 owners who are available to tap for a 992 buy than their are .2 owners who are more used to and clearly ok with the new powerplant/FI vibe. Being that there will naturally be more of the former they need to “convince.”

As for China. Indeed, that is also preference. It’s just I personally can’t remember a car I liked more that had “China market” fingerprints all over it. Their desires generally don’t align with mine as much as the U.S market. Which makes perfect fundamental sense as I’m emotionally attached to cars, and big on classic elements, while appliance like natures, or ring times are less necessary or desired (if they don’t connect to me on a more personal level), and China has literally no blueprint for what was “purist” or “raw original” before. That element means nothing to little to them.

I feel BMW really fell in an enthusiast sense once they started tending to the China market. To take that example. Also, to me, it’s not coincidental that it’s when sports cars started literally at the exact same time, see less demand.

Honestly, I’d buy a 997 right now if it wasn’t for the 991 being so beautiful, lol. I’d likely prefer its character.

As for 992; I’m PRETTY sure it’s an all new chassis. About certain, actually. Though it looks a lot like 991 (thankfully). The greenhouse also does seem a bit smaller(?).
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:04 PM
  #50  
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My local, relatively small, dealership has a dozen .2s on their lot unsold, so it's not like the cars are super hard to get.
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:28 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Archimedes
My local, relatively small, dealership has a dozen .2s on their lot unsold, so it's not like the cars are super hard to get.

Cars.com alone is showing 1,000+ NEW 991.2's. Base, S, GTS, in all. Coupe, Cab, Targa. Many overinflated builds $$.

There have been talking points and an agenda to try and reduce dealer discounting. The scarcity story line is alive and well.

Although, allocations ARE not as easy to come by as the past.....

Remember 991.1 TURBO?? They flooded the market and many being discounted $20K-$40K NEW. They pulled back on 991.2 Porsche is very conscious of not wanting to be associated with the discounting game and image.

BIG PICTURE GUYS ---- PAG has been breaking sales #'s yearly for what? Last 5+ years. Record sales. Even in the USA. They're doing VERY WELL overall. They are a global company. Sports cars are becoming a side business. Good marketing image to sell the rest of the bread and butter. Advertise the 911R and Joe Suburb Dad settles for a Cayenne but daydreams about driving the R
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Old 01-16-2018, 12:32 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by BlackBeauty View Post
Check out their segment reporting (separate company f/s on line).
Do you happen to have a link? I would love to read their annual financials.
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Old 01-16-2018, 12:49 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by STG View Post
BIG PICTURE GUYS ---- PAG has been breaking sales #'s yearly for what? Last 5+ years. Record sales. Even in the USA. They're doing VERY WELL overall. They are a global company. Sports cars are becoming a side business. Good marketing image to sell the rest of the bread and butter. Advertise the 911R and Joe Suburb Dad settles for a Cayenne but daydreams about driving the R
Yep.

And, ironically, not the worst thing to have dealer lots light on the four-doors and heavy on sports cars when someone comes to visit, no? Maybe not the intention, but the stores end up projecting a sports-car image rather than an SUV/sedan/wagon image.
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Old 01-16-2018, 12:58 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by stout
Yep.

And, ironically, not the worst thing to have dealer lots light on the four-doors and heavy on sports cars when someone comes to visit, no? Maybe not the intention, but the stores end up projecting a sports-car image rather than an SUV/sedan/wagon image.

True. Depends on the dealer though. Some you'd wonder if Porsche even makes sports cars. Depends on their product mix. Some are weaker on sports cars sales.
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Old 01-16-2018, 01:03 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by stout
Yep.

And, ironically, not the worst thing to have dealer lots light on the four-doors and heavy on sports cars when someone comes to visit, no? Maybe not the intention, but the stores end up projecting a sports-car image rather than an SUV/sedan/wagon image.
Oh my dealer has a sea of SUVs on the lot as well.
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Old 01-16-2018, 01:16 AM
  #56  
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Plenty of new inventory, and 991.2 used are starting to be a bargain, but a lot of these cars are very high option builds. What is most significant to me is that there are 360 new 2017 911 listed on cars.com

Undoubtedly some are demos etc., but that is a huge number of leftover cars. A few are even listed with discounts. Lol.

But the point about how these are speced is true. Lots of bloated builds. I also think, and maybe it is just rennlist although I suspect not given my friends who are not on RL, that there is an ever increasing tendency to not buy off the lot but to order. I mean if you are spending six figures on a car, you sort of want what you want. Here in the US that seems to be a PTS car or a GT3.
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Old 01-16-2018, 01:42 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by evilfij
Plenty of new inventory, and 991.2 used are starting to be a bargain, but a lot of these cars are very high option builds. What is most significant to me is that there are 360 new 2017 911 listed on cars.com

Undoubtedly some are demos etc., but that is a huge number of leftover cars. A few are even listed with discounts. Lol.

But the point about how these are speced is true. Lots of bloated builds. I also think, and maybe it is just rennlist although I suspect not given my friends who are not on RL, that there is an ever increasing tendency to not buy off the lot but to order. I mean if you are spending six figures on a car, you sort of want what you want. Here in the US that seems to be a PTS car or a GT3.

See my post above. Over 1,000 NEW. Many obese ones $$$.

Agree, for these cars and that kinda $$$, guys want custom spec. Just like GT3, dealer spec themselves bloated builds and screw over potential buyers.
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Old 01-16-2018, 03:20 AM
  #58  
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Yes, over 1000 new, ~950 2018 and 360 2017 which was my point.

Out of those 1300 plus, very few are not bloated. Especially 2017 leftovers.
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Old 01-16-2018, 03:21 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by stout View Post
Interesting thread, indeed. Yes, these are distributor sales to dealers rather than end users. These charts become more interesting when "days supply" inventory from the dealers is added to the picture.

Some interesting opinions masked as conclusions here, including the idea that America isn't important anymore—as the USA is still a huge market and North America remains the largest (but not necessarily most profitable) market. Another odd viewpoint, to me anyway, is that what works for the Chinese market is the antithesis of what American enthusiasts want. I may agree in theory in some cases (see: 718), but can think of two examples where world market influences benefitted me as an enthusiast here in the USA: 1) I feel we got something pretty amazing in the 3.0-liter 991.2 Carrera/T/S/GTS (I know this is a hot topic, but I feel the twin-turbo 3.0 makes the Carrera more appealing...YMMV); 2) I am amazed by how much I like the Macan we weren't supposed to get—the base Macan—but got when the Macan Diesel was nixed (it's the Porsche I should hate the most, but I actually really dig how light its nose is, the ride-handling is DIALED, and the turbo four is good enough for my daily use needs).
I can think of a third one that is China specific. The Chinese buy enough Macans to provide enough play money for PAG to indulge in the GT program.
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Old 01-16-2018, 07:15 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by STG View Post
BIG PICTURE GUYS ---- PAG has been breaking sales #'s yearly for what? Last 5+ years. Record sales. Even in the USA. They're doing VERY WELL overall. They are a global company. Sports cars are becoming a side business. Good marketing image to sell the rest of the bread and butter. Advertise the 911R and Joe Suburb Dad settles for a Cayenne but daydreams about driving the R
In this automotive climate though, every brand has been breaking records every year for the past 5+ years, and Porsche added two major volume sellers within the past 5 years. Porsche in fact declined slightly (overall) in the U.S last year. Though, as an enthusiast, I'd love to see them pull out of the volume game in America and not chase the gluttony of fleet and discounts, etc. (as M-B and BMW have sold their once prestigious souls to). The China effect may be antithesis to what I like out of my sports cars.. but one area it can benefit me as an enthusiast is if they swallow enough volume to where we don't have to see Porsche dip into that game out here.
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