Porsche again sets new records for deliveries
01-12-2018, 01:14 AM
#16
Late Porkchops
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Deliveries are a little different than actual sales - but we will give them the benefit of a doubt as they are trying to make the numbers look "good."
01-12-2018, 01:25 AM
#17
Race Director
Originally Posted by TexasRider
Deliveries are a little different than actual sales - but we will give them the benefit of a doubt as they are trying to make the numbers look "good."
Yes. They should say "punched cars". Lol.
01-12-2018, 08:47 AM
#19
As an enthusiast, I look at China as the big negative. What works in China is antithesis for what an enthusiast typically craves (at least this one). Supplying powerplants and engineering these cars with China in mind, is an unfortunate reality.
In the U.S, slight decline in sales. Fine with me, again as an enthusiast, the less Porsche's out there, the better. Issue is, how those numbers stack up in terms of model to model. SUV's are swallowing all sales, and will even more so with the new Cayenne coming out. 718's are struggling, sadly as they're great cars, but the turbo 4 was a big mistake.
911's being flat is not a good sign for U.S, as GT3's as noted took a good chunk of those sales, which means .2 Carrera sales were down (pretty significantly) again. Is Porsche content with this? Are those figures threatening or morphing future 911 decisions, at least in terms of U.S tastes? Who knows. But while I'm ok with less 911's being sold (on a "not as many on the roads" level), I also want them to meet internal expectations, so as to guarantee the future lineage.
2018 will likely see record low U.S 911 figures as I've been told allocations until at least June at even large dealers are minute, of course combined with the ramp up for 992 models.
In the U.S, slight decline in sales. Fine with me, again as an enthusiast, the less Porsche's out there, the better. Issue is, how those numbers stack up in terms of model to model. SUV's are swallowing all sales, and will even more so with the new Cayenne coming out. 718's are struggling, sadly as they're great cars, but the turbo 4 was a big mistake.
911's being flat is not a good sign for U.S, as GT3's as noted took a good chunk of those sales, which means .2 Carrera sales were down (pretty significantly) again. Is Porsche content with this? Are those figures threatening or morphing future 911 decisions, at least in terms of U.S tastes? Who knows. But while I'm ok with less 911's being sold (on a "not as many on the roads" level), I also want them to meet internal expectations, so as to guarantee the future lineage.
2018 will likely see record low U.S 911 figures as I've been told allocations until at least June at even large dealers are minute, of course combined with the ramp up for 992 models.
01-12-2018, 09:00 AM
#20
Race Director
Porsche is designing cars for the Asian markets and crazy Euro restrictions. They have been for a while and will be doing so even more.
The 992 is being pushed ahead so early for a reason.
Sadly what US customers want is low on the priority list.
The 992 is being pushed ahead so early for a reason.
Sadly what US customers want is low on the priority list.
01-12-2018, 07:02 PM
#21
I am very curious to see what the 992 does for the 911.
Feels like the 991.2 took a step back by removing the NA engines from the 911 without giving something in return so there was a kind of weird perception, especially as the change was a mid-cycle refresh rather than a new generation which would help excite people and boost sales with a new look exterior and interior. 996 was a whole new look with water cooling. 991 was a whole new look with EPS. 991.2 is just about identical to 991.1 but very different engine and introduction of turbocharging.
The 992 will have the fully updated interior it looks like and some tweaked styling so I wonder if that will draw more people in along with the rumored hybrid powertrains.. or turn some people away. Personally excited to see the exterior and sad to see the interior head in the "Tesla" direction..
Feels like the 991.2 took a step back by removing the NA engines from the 911 without giving something in return so there was a kind of weird perception, especially as the change was a mid-cycle refresh rather than a new generation which would help excite people and boost sales with a new look exterior and interior. 996 was a whole new look with water cooling. 991 was a whole new look with EPS. 991.2 is just about identical to 991.1 but very different engine and introduction of turbocharging.
The 992 will have the fully updated interior it looks like and some tweaked styling so I wonder if that will draw more people in along with the rumored hybrid powertrains.. or turn some people away. Personally excited to see the exterior and sad to see the interior head in the "Tesla" direction..
01-12-2018, 07:31 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Interesting thread, indeed. Yes, these are distributor sales to dealers rather than end users. These charts become more interesting when "days supply" inventory from the dealers is added to the picture.
Some interesting opinions masked as conclusions here, including the idea that America isn't important anymore—as the USA is still a huge market and North America remains the largest (but not necessarily most profitable) market. Another odd viewpoint, to me anyway, is that what works for the Chinese market is the antithesis of what American enthusiasts want. I may agree in theory in some cases (see: 718), but can think of two examples where world market influences benefitted me as an enthusiast here in the USA: 1) I feel we got something pretty amazing in the 3.0-liter 991.2 Carrera/T/S/GTS (I know this is a hot topic, but I feel the twin-turbo 3.0 makes the Carrera more appealing...YMMV); 2) I am amazed by how much I like the Macan we weren't supposed to get—the base Macan—but got when the Macan Diesel was nixed (it's the Porsche I should hate the most, but I actually really dig how light its nose is, the ride-handling is DIALED, and the turbo four is good enough for my daily use needs).
And is Porsche really pushing the 992 forward early? Let's look at that:
996 Carrera: MY 1998-2004 (C4S, GTx, and Turbo S to 2005)
997 Carrera: MY 2005-2011 (GTS, RS 4.0, etc to 2012)
991 Carrera: MY 2012-2018?
992 Carrera: MY 2019-2025?
Looks like a 6~ model year schedule to me, but there are some asterisks that have to be dealt with, and one can question "1998" as well as some other start and finish "dates."
Some interesting opinions masked as conclusions here, including the idea that America isn't important anymore—as the USA is still a huge market and North America remains the largest (but not necessarily most profitable) market. Another odd viewpoint, to me anyway, is that what works for the Chinese market is the antithesis of what American enthusiasts want. I may agree in theory in some cases (see: 718), but can think of two examples where world market influences benefitted me as an enthusiast here in the USA: 1) I feel we got something pretty amazing in the 3.0-liter 991.2 Carrera/T/S/GTS (I know this is a hot topic, but I feel the twin-turbo 3.0 makes the Carrera more appealing...YMMV); 2) I am amazed by how much I like the Macan we weren't supposed to get—the base Macan—but got when the Macan Diesel was nixed (it's the Porsche I should hate the most, but I actually really dig how light its nose is, the ride-handling is DIALED, and the turbo four is good enough for my daily use needs).
And is Porsche really pushing the 992 forward early? Let's look at that:
996 Carrera: MY 1998-2004 (C4S, GTx, and Turbo S to 2005)
997 Carrera: MY 2005-2011 (GTS, RS 4.0, etc to 2012)
991 Carrera: MY 2012-2018?
992 Carrera: MY 2019-2025?
Looks like a 6~ model year schedule to me, but there are some asterisks that have to be dealt with, and one can question "1998" as well as some other start and finish "dates."
01-14-2018, 09:24 AM
#23
The Asia - Pacific region will be the driver well in to the future - there is a willingness to accept innovation and reward that innovation with a greater margin.
Look at the 718, a great performer across the production range - highly regarded by those that look at a package in the round and strong sales numbers to back that up (global perspective).
Looking forward to the 992 given the in-built headroom of the 9A2 - and interested to see the direction taken by the GT dept, particularly given Porsche currently produce one NA vehicle.
Look at the 718, a great performer across the production range - highly regarded by those that look at a package in the round and strong sales numbers to back that up (global perspective).
Looking forward to the 992 given the in-built headroom of the 9A2 - and interested to see the direction taken by the GT dept, particularly given Porsche currently produce one NA vehicle.
Last edited by RRDnA; 01-14-2018 at 09:50 AM.
01-14-2018, 10:08 AM
#24
Race Director
Originally Posted by stout
And is Porsche really pushing the 992 forward early? Let's look at that:
996 Carrera: MY 1998-2004 (C4S, GTx, and Turbo S to 2005)
997 Carrera: MY 2005-2011 (GTS, RS 4.0, etc to 2012)
991 Carrera: MY 2012-2018?
992 Carrera: MY 2019-2025?
Looks like a 6~ model year schedule to me, but there are some asterisks that have to be dealt with, and one can question "1998" as well as some other start and finish "dates."
997.1 / 2005-2008
997.2 / 2009-2012
991.1 / 2012-2016
991.2 / 2017-2018 (tbd)
* 2012 split year for 997.2 and 991.1
Last edited by STG; 01-14-2018 at 12:26 PM.
01-14-2018, 10:11 AM
#25
Race Director
Originally Posted by stout
Some interesting opinions masked as conclusions here, including the idea that America isn't important anymore—as the USA is still a huge market and North America remains the largest (but not necessarily most profitable) market.
* North America is no longer the largest and most likely never will be.
01-14-2018, 10:15 AM
#26
Race Director
Originally Posted by stout
Some interesting opinions masked as conclusions here
but can think of two examples where world market influences benefitted me as an enthusiast here in the USA: 1) I feel we got something pretty amazing in the 3.0-liter 991.2 Carrera/T/S/GTS (I know this is a hot topic, but I feel the twin-turbo 3.0 makes the Carrera more appealing...YMMV); 2) I am amazed by how much I like the Macan we weren't supposed to get—the base Macan—but got when the Macan Diesel was nixed (it's the Porsche I should hate the most, but I actually really dig how light its nose is, the ride-handling is DIALED, and the turbo four is good enough for my daily use needs).
^^ yes, plenty of opinions here masked as conclusions
Also ....
How about the 4cy base model 991.2 Porsche was considering until the backlash started upon the rumor of it? My "opinion" is they would have done a lot of damage to the 911 brand/model.
01-14-2018, 01:06 PM
#27
I wouldn't be surprised to see the Panamera outsell the 911 in 2018 for the United States at least. Its clear the new model is a hit and it should do well in Asia as well where sedans are way more popular than sports cars.
Porsche's come a long way from being a company that just made sports cars. As 718/911 sales plummet as a percentage of overall Porsche sales, it opens up two radically different paths for the future for the cars. One way forward would be to attempt to move the 911 closer to the luxury cars and make it even less focused going forward by moving it to all FI engines, adding a hybrid system, offering an optional flat 4, adding more tech and driver assist features, increasing the ride height etc. The other way forward would be to use the extra headroom the lower % of 911 sales creates in fleet wide emissions and fuel economy requirements to take it back to its roots with lower weights, more NA engines louder exhausts etc.
Porsche's come a long way from being a company that just made sports cars. As 718/911 sales plummet as a percentage of overall Porsche sales, it opens up two radically different paths for the future for the cars. One way forward would be to attempt to move the 911 closer to the luxury cars and make it even less focused going forward by moving it to all FI engines, adding a hybrid system, offering an optional flat 4, adding more tech and driver assist features, increasing the ride height etc. The other way forward would be to use the extra headroom the lower % of 911 sales creates in fleet wide emissions and fuel economy requirements to take it back to its roots with lower weights, more NA engines louder exhausts etc.
01-15-2018, 03:19 AM
#29
Now how do I “@“ PORSCHE to ensure they’re listening.
Doesn't matter what we want anymore, honestly (well.. it does, but just a lot less.... if China had full say, the 911 probably would have a 2.0 flat 4 option, sound quality be damned). 911’s will continue to get faster, ubiquitously turbocharged quieter, meek sounding, softer, more tech heavy, and lose its rambunctious quirk along the way. China market doesn’t see the 911 like we do, and their tastes + efficiency/low CI/mandatory FI requirements will likely put the 911 onto a path of another soulless digital rocket on wheels. .2 fans will probably be fine or happy, while .1 and previous gen fans will feel even more disassociated, and there are a ton more of “us” (the latter).
We’ll see when the 992 launches. But the rumors of taking N/A away from the GT3 would truly seal it. U.S sales are on a downward slope for 911’s (even the help of the purportedly highest selling GT3 to date couldn’t compensate for continued Carrera decline to generate overall growth from last year). So their focus will continue shift to what China likes. I guess it’s a taste of our own medicine, as for decades ROW had to deal with their cars being built around what the U.S market wanted first and foremost.
It sucks to me, because I finally am in the 911 owners field. But it’s likely a reality going forward.
01-15-2018, 05:29 AM
#30
Personally, I think Porsche have taken a step in the right direction - the 992 looks pretty good to me, there are plenty of satisfied and indeed happy .2 owners out there, the new direction has been accepted by most of the market place (991.2 sales on par despite declines in global sports car sales and 718 sales are actually up). Moreover, Porsche live to fight another day producing good all round sports cars.
The NA guys needn't lose sleep - plenty of CPO and used NA Porsche sports cars out there to satiate that appetite.
If any of you follow the FIA WEC you will have noticed that Ferrari won the manufacturers GT trophy followed by Ford - these races are governed by BOP regs, yet the two teams powered by turbocharged engines came 1st and 2nd. Porsche do not like to lose. At some point the need to win will kick in. Unless the regs change I suspect there will be ramifications for road legal NA GT cars.
A survey of people interested in WEC (where n = 54,000) delivered the following synopsis -
"The fans considered that the top five attributes of the WEC were that it is: technological, competitive, innovative, exciting and global – all values which the Promotor and Organisers have committed to continue into the future. The exciting racing, close competition and pioneering technology is already in place and set to continue!
The favourite marques among fans included those already seen in the WEC such as Porsche, Aston Martin and Ferrari, but equally those who might be attracted in the future – McLaren being a particular favourite among young fans.
While LMP1 is the single most followed category, nearly 80% of the fans follow both the LMP and GTE categories and the GTE Pro class is in strong health with the advent of BMW to join Aston Martin, Ferrari, Ford and Porsche from next year.
The need to win will be strong and the market place likes winners.
The NA guys needn't lose sleep - plenty of CPO and used NA Porsche sports cars out there to satiate that appetite.
If any of you follow the FIA WEC you will have noticed that Ferrari won the manufacturers GT trophy followed by Ford - these races are governed by BOP regs, yet the two teams powered by turbocharged engines came 1st and 2nd. Porsche do not like to lose. At some point the need to win will kick in. Unless the regs change I suspect there will be ramifications for road legal NA GT cars.
A survey of people interested in WEC (where n = 54,000) delivered the following synopsis -
"The fans considered that the top five attributes of the WEC were that it is: technological, competitive, innovative, exciting and global – all values which the Promotor and Organisers have committed to continue into the future. The exciting racing, close competition and pioneering technology is already in place and set to continue!
The favourite marques among fans included those already seen in the WEC such as Porsche, Aston Martin and Ferrari, but equally those who might be attracted in the future – McLaren being a particular favourite among young fans.
While LMP1 is the single most followed category, nearly 80% of the fans follow both the LMP and GTE categories and the GTE Pro class is in strong health with the advent of BMW to join Aston Martin, Ferrari, Ford and Porsche from next year.
The need to win will be strong and the market place likes winners.
Last edited by RRDnA; 01-15-2018 at 07:18 AM.