Fellow NA 991 owners-what would it take for you to embrace 991.2/992?
11-20-2017, 12:37 PM
#32
Embrace? 991.2 GT3 or Touring. What else??
The best 911 in the current line up hands down.
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The best 911 in the current line up hands down.
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Saw my first rolling .2 GT3 the other night leaving the airport. I still think I made the right decision with my .2 GTS for its intended daily usage and not hold off for the GT3, but seeing one for the first time made me question my choice. Wow... what a ****ing car!
11-20-2017, 02:24 PM
#33
I have zero interest in an FI car until Porsche solves the two things Ferrari seems to have solved on the 488. Throttle response and sound. Get those perfect and I'd embrace the car. Offer something similar to the .2 or just a slight evolution, and I'd have no interest. Honestly, the chance I'd ever buy a new Porsche sports car that wasn't a naturally aspirated GT car is probably slim to none.
11-20-2017, 02:55 PM
#34
The 991.2 for some reason would be harder for me to embrace, at least fundamentally, than the up coming 992. I think it has to do with the fact that halfway through the 991 production run the car got an EU / EPA mandated engine stuffed into the back of it and then Porsche begin immediately marketing it and the 718 engine as being " superior" and acting as if they had reached some great epiphany even though the previous 40 years they avoided turbocharging the base level cars dispute their extensive experience with turbos.... Let's not kid ourselves here Porsche never wanted this for the non " Turbo" cars and someone else can chime in here but I'd suspect when the 991 was first conceived it wasn't something they were planning for either. They had no choice but to go small displacement turbo to keep up with everyone else and the .2 represents for me that sad and compromised mark in Porsche 911 history.
The 992 on the other hand would be the first gen 911 designed around the turbo engine and perhaps would have more clever engineering / layout of components ( better air flow for the intercoolers etc.).
It's near certain that the 992 will just continue with the 911's Panameraization and will likely end up with more flashy screens and frivolous luxury car technology taking it further and further away from what made it so special.
My only hope is that it can be ordered in a stripped format with an honest manual trans without Auto rev matching, PTV, Rear wheel steering, Active engine mounts, Axle lift, turbo boost , silent mode, 2 wheel ski mode , ejector seat system .... Etc Etc Etc....
My pie in the sky dream would be that the engineers finally figured out ( or simply cared) that someone may actually need to service the car at some point and would then come up with some sort of clever way to get to the engine without the car looking like it was undergoing rear end collision repair with the wing, taillights and bumper laying on the ground all just to change out a filter!
The 992 on the other hand would be the first gen 911 designed around the turbo engine and perhaps would have more clever engineering / layout of components ( better air flow for the intercoolers etc.).
It's near certain that the 992 will just continue with the 911's Panameraization and will likely end up with more flashy screens and frivolous luxury car technology taking it further and further away from what made it so special.
My only hope is that it can be ordered in a stripped format with an honest manual trans without Auto rev matching, PTV, Rear wheel steering, Active engine mounts, Axle lift, turbo boost , silent mode, 2 wheel ski mode , ejector seat system .... Etc Etc Etc....
My pie in the sky dream would be that the engineers finally figured out ( or simply cared) that someone may actually need to service the car at some point and would then come up with some sort of clever way to get to the engine without the car looking like it was undergoing rear end collision repair with the wing, taillights and bumper laying on the ground all just to change out a filter!
11-20-2017, 03:13 PM
#35
My pie in the sky dream would be that the engineers finally figured out ( or simply cared) that someone may actually need to service the car at some point and would then come up with some sort of clever way to get to the engine without the car looking like it was undergoing rear end collision repair with the wing, taillights and bumper laying on the ground all just to change out a filter!
11-20-2017, 05:30 PM
#36
The 991.2 for some reason would be harder for me to embrace, at least fundamentally, than the up coming 992. I think it has to do with the fact that halfway through the 991 production run the car got an EU / EPA mandated engine stuffed into the back of it and then Porsche begin immediately marketing it and the 718 engine as being " superior" and acting as if they had reached some great epiphany even though the previous 40 years they avoided turbocharging the base level cars dispute their extensive experience with turbos.... Let's not kid ourselves here Porsche never wanted this for the non " Turbo" cars and someone else can chime in here but I'd suspect when the 991 was first conceived it wasn't something they were planning for either. They had no choice but to go small displacement turbo to keep up with everyone else and the .2 represents for me that sad and compromised mark in Porsche 911 history.
The 992 on the other hand would be the first gen 911 designed around the turbo engine and perhaps would have more clever engineering / layout of components ( better air flow for the intercoolers etc.).
It's near certain that the 992 will just continue with the 911's Panameraization and will likely end up with more flashy screens and frivolous luxury car technology taking it further and further away from what made it so special.
My only hope is that it can be ordered in a stripped format with an honest manual trans without Auto rev matching, PTV, Rear wheel steering, Active engine mounts, Axle lift, turbo boost , silent mode, 2 wheel ski mode , ejector seat system .... Etc Etc Etc....
My pie in the sky dream would be that the engineers finally figured out ( or simply cared) that someone may actually need to service the car at some point and would then come up with some sort of clever way to get to the engine without the car looking like it was undergoing rear end collision repair with the wing, taillights and bumper laying on the ground all just to change out a filter!
The 992 on the other hand would be the first gen 911 designed around the turbo engine and perhaps would have more clever engineering / layout of components ( better air flow for the intercoolers etc.).
It's near certain that the 992 will just continue with the 911's Panameraization and will likely end up with more flashy screens and frivolous luxury car technology taking it further and further away from what made it so special.
My only hope is that it can be ordered in a stripped format with an honest manual trans without Auto rev matching, PTV, Rear wheel steering, Active engine mounts, Axle lift, turbo boost , silent mode, 2 wheel ski mode , ejector seat system .... Etc Etc Etc....
My pie in the sky dream would be that the engineers finally figured out ( or simply cared) that someone may actually need to service the car at some point and would then come up with some sort of clever way to get to the engine without the car looking like it was undergoing rear end collision repair with the wing, taillights and bumper laying on the ground all just to change out a filter!
I'm not a fan of FI but I'm happy to accept it if done right. I realize if I want to be able to buy new, this is where everything is heading so I better get used to it. When everything ends up being electric one day, we will look back at our disdain for FI platforms as the "good old days"
The Merc AMG GTS and Ferrari 488 are both great examples of FI platforms that offer superior performance with very little trade off when it comes to throttle response, turbo lag, and sound. Porsche is a talented company and I have no doubt they can match these other brands in this regard.I also agree 100% on your assessment of the 991 going FI in the .2. I feel it was forced and the 991 was never originally built with an FI platform in mind. The cooling issues you pointed out are a prime example. You can't even go with a fixed ducktail spoiler on a .2 for cooling reasons. We will never know for sure but I would bet that the 992 was supposed to be the first generation of Carrera's going FI but due to regulations, this got pushed up on the roadmap.
11-20-2017, 05:38 PM
#37
I don't agree that the water cooled transition is a good analogy. The move from NA to Turbo impacts the actual driving experience a lot more than the air to water cooled transition did. The latter was more of a purity debate, the former is a very material change in the way the car drives.
I have zero interest in an FI car until Porsche solves the two things Ferrari seems to have solved on the 488. Throttle response and sound. Get those perfect and I'd embrace the car. Offer something similar to the .2 or just a slight evolution, and I'd have no interest. Honestly, the chance I'd ever buy a new Porsche sports car that wasn't a naturally aspirated GT car is probably slim to none.
I have zero interest in an FI car until Porsche solves the two things Ferrari seems to have solved on the 488. Throttle response and sound. Get those perfect and I'd embrace the car. Offer something similar to the .2 or just a slight evolution, and I'd have no interest. Honestly, the chance I'd ever buy a new Porsche sports car that wasn't a naturally aspirated GT car is probably slim to none.
The 991.2 for some reason would be harder for me to embrace, at least fundamentally, than the up coming 992. I think it has to do with the fact that halfway through the 991 production run the car got an EU / EPA mandated engine stuffed into the back of it and then Porsche begin immediately marketing it and the 718 engine as being " superior" and acting as if they had reached some great epiphany even though the previous 40 years they avoided turbocharging the base level cars dispute their extensive experience with turbos.... Let's not kid ourselves here Porsche never wanted this for the non " Turbo" cars and someone else can chime in here but I'd suspect when the 991 was first conceived it wasn't something they were planning for either. They had no choice but to go small displacement turbo to keep up with everyone else and the .2 represents for me that sad and compromised mark in Porsche 911 history.
The 992 on the other hand would be the first gen 911 designed around the turbo engine and perhaps would have more clever engineering / layout of components ( better air flow for the intercoolers etc.).
It's near certain that the 992 will just continue with the 911's Panameraization and will likely end up with more flashy screens and frivolous luxury car technology taking it further and further away from what made it so special.
My only hope is that it can be ordered in a stripped format with an honest manual trans without Auto rev matching, PTV, Rear wheel steering, Active engine mounts, Axle lift, turbo boost , silent mode, 2 wheel ski mode , ejector seat system .... Etc Etc Etc....
My pie in the sky dream would be that the engineers finally figured out ( or simply cared) that someone may actually need to service the car at some point and would then come up with some sort of clever way to get to the engine without the car looking like it was undergoing rear end collision repair with the wing, taillights and bumper laying on the ground all just to change out a filter!
The 992 on the other hand would be the first gen 911 designed around the turbo engine and perhaps would have more clever engineering / layout of components ( better air flow for the intercoolers etc.).
It's near certain that the 992 will just continue with the 911's Panameraization and will likely end up with more flashy screens and frivolous luxury car technology taking it further and further away from what made it so special.
My only hope is that it can be ordered in a stripped format with an honest manual trans without Auto rev matching, PTV, Rear wheel steering, Active engine mounts, Axle lift, turbo boost , silent mode, 2 wheel ski mode , ejector seat system .... Etc Etc Etc....
My pie in the sky dream would be that the engineers finally figured out ( or simply cared) that someone may actually need to service the car at some point and would then come up with some sort of clever way to get to the engine without the car looking like it was undergoing rear end collision repair with the wing, taillights and bumper laying on the ground all just to change out a filter!
Re: Servicing a car, I’m paranoid enough when someone stands NEXT to my car. Having to know a tech will literally rip the rear apart, handling all that precious bodywork that you spend so much time caring for, can get the OCD meter going berserk. Imagine the 992 with the engine pushed even further to the middle.
Not that I pop my “hoods” often, but it would be nice to be able to see some semblance of engine. I saw a .2 with the rear bumper off and I just sat there and studied in awe how insanely compacted they fit everything back there. Not a cm of free space anywhere. Another inherent negative to adding more “stuff” to the rear: More weight at the rear. .2’s clock in at well over 100 lbs more than the same spec .1’s.
Could be due to the half cycle compromise as we’ll find out Porsche’s true intent with the 911 going forward e.g whether they shave weight from the 991.2 (plausible since they’ll be designing that chassis around a turbo). But I doubt it’ll be lighter than a .1 with all that new fluff it’s getting. Remember, Porsche advertised the .1 being lighter than the 997 front and center, as a nod to how much of a pure sports car they intended to maintain it to be.
After driving a Cayman, I want my 911 to feel MORE like a go kart, not more like a GT cruiser as they keep getting toward with every new generation, and now even half generation.
11-20-2017, 05:42 PM
#38
I would agree here except the ejector seat system is a must if you're married...
11-20-2017, 06:10 PM
#39
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This may be more inline with a 911T model.... but SPASM ride hight without adjustability - no buttons - no electronics. No Dynamic engine/tranny mounts. No PDCC to keep the car flat and allow natural body roll. Think about what Mazda did with the latest Miata; they engineered fun > Ring lap times. A 3K pound car with 6 speed with shorter ratios (a la 911T but even shorter) with a 3.4 NA engine would be so perfect.
11-20-2017, 06:42 PM
#41
Originally Posted by K-A
Well said. Air vs water debate is still a pretty hot one, and the switch from N/A to turbo is fundamentally much larger.Damn. Very well stated.
Re: Servicing a car, IÂ’m paranoid enough when someone stands NEXT to my car. Having to know a tech will literally rip the rear apart, handling all that precious bodywork that you spend so much time caring for, can get the OCD meter going berserk. Imagine the 992 with the engine pushed even further to the middle.
Not that I pop my “hoods” often, but it would be nice to be able to see some semblance of engine. I saw a .2 with the rear bumper off and I just sat there and studied in awe how insanely compacted they fit everything back there. Not a cm of free space anywhere. Another inherent negative to adding more “stuff” to the rear: More weight at the rear. .2’s clock in at well over 100 lbs more than the same spec .1’s.
Could be due to the half cycle compromise as weÂ’ll find out PorscheÂ’s true intent with the 911 going forward e.g whether they shave weight from the 991.2 (plausible since theyÂ’ll be designing that chassis around a turbo). But I doubt itÂ’ll be lighter than a .1 with all that new fluff itÂ’s getting. Remember, Porsche advertised the .1 being lighter than the 997 front and center, as a nod to how much of a pure sports car they intended to maintain it to be.
After driving a Cayman, I want my 911 to feel MORE like a go kart, not more like a GT cruiser as they keep getting toward with every new generation, and now even half generation.
Re: Servicing a car, IÂ’m paranoid enough when someone stands NEXT to my car. Having to know a tech will literally rip the rear apart, handling all that precious bodywork that you spend so much time caring for, can get the OCD meter going berserk. Imagine the 992 with the engine pushed even further to the middle.
Not that I pop my “hoods” often, but it would be nice to be able to see some semblance of engine. I saw a .2 with the rear bumper off and I just sat there and studied in awe how insanely compacted they fit everything back there. Not a cm of free space anywhere. Another inherent negative to adding more “stuff” to the rear: More weight at the rear. .2’s clock in at well over 100 lbs more than the same spec .1’s.
Could be due to the half cycle compromise as weÂ’ll find out PorscheÂ’s true intent with the 911 going forward e.g whether they shave weight from the 991.2 (plausible since theyÂ’ll be designing that chassis around a turbo). But I doubt itÂ’ll be lighter than a .1 with all that new fluff itÂ’s getting. Remember, Porsche advertised the .1 being lighter than the 997 front and center, as a nod to how much of a pure sports car they intended to maintain it to be.
After driving a Cayman, I want my 911 to feel MORE like a go kart, not more like a GT cruiser as they keep getting toward with every new generation, and now even half generation.
11-20-2017, 06:46 PM
#42
Have you serviced your car yourself? I can assure you the .1 is crammed back there too. It too requires rear bumper removal for air filters (although the .2 also requires removing the spoiler - that's going to be fun) and all the intercooler and turbo plumbing space in the .1 is occupied by additional side mufflers, additional heat shielding and massive black plastic side attachments for the bumper cover. I would concede the .1 is easier for spark plugs and air filters, but c'mon there's not a lot of room to work on either car. One thing that's beneficial is it helps you get over being OCD about that rear bumper cover.
11-20-2017, 06:49 PM
#43
This may be more inline with a 911T model.... but SPASM ride hight without adjustability - no buttons - no electronics. No Dynamic engine/tranny mounts. No PDCC to keep the car flat and allow natural body roll. Think about what Mazda did with the latest Miata; they engineered fun > Ring lap times. A 3K pound car with 6 speed with shorter ratios (a la 911T but even shorter) with a 3.4 NA engine would be so perfect.
I agree 100% .... Sadly though I don't think anyone at Porsche is listening.... It amazes me that in an age where the consumer can get virtually anything they want in almost every other market , as car enthusiasts , we are forced to look backwards at older models to get the experience we desire from the company we want to purchase from. Other companies have recently produced affordable, stripped down and raw sports cars and managed to sell them with success.
I'm confident a sub 50k Porsche sports car would sell very well and satisfy real enthusiasts , amateur racing , entry level sports car purchasers alike. I don't want to hear that " it will water down the brand " overblown marketing nonsense. Porsche has sold affordable entry level 912's , 914's and 924's along side their " premium" offerings with no issues over the decades. In fact many of these entry models including the Boxster helped to save the company from financial collapse.
Ask any Chevy dealer if they have a "brand image problem " selling an 80k dollar Corvette parked in a showroom of 20k dollar cars and they will laugh you off the lot for how foolish that sounds... Even a generally out of touch American manufacture understands that a Corvette buyer is in no way affected by the companies other offerings....
Last edited by limegreen; 11-20-2017 at 07:06 PM.
11-20-2017, 06:50 PM
#44
I think the turbos and the plumbing - I read somewhere that's why they went to the plastic oil pan to offset it a bit. Spoiler mechanism might be slightly heavier as well. I can't imagine a new PCM being heavier and for cars without rear steer, I don't think there's any more comforts. Oh wait, the extra symposer tube! Haha! Kidding
11-20-2017, 07:40 PM
#45
Instructor
I am perfectly happy with my 15' GTS Cab, and don't see any way i would trade for anything with a turbo in it... I hope the Strikethrough came thru on the 991.2 lols