Bardman

I am exactly with you there. For my fun car I either buy a GT car or a second hand car. For NA and manual, there is not really much else out there.

CAlexio

We were at Alice’s today, the norcal Mecca for gearhead meetups. A few guys with 991.2 911’s were there as well as an RS. As each one left, of course they did semi-hard launches. The turbo 911’s just kind of slinked away with a barely audible motor sound completely muffled, banana-in-the-tailpipe style. No one could be bothered to even engage a neck muscle to turn around. Then the RS took off with the most glorious sound.. conversations stopped, heads turned, and many just began to spontaneously clap.

Not apples to apples comparison but very telling.. the NA engine is just visceral, the passion for the turbo motors is just not there. The impulse money, the kids college funds, the quarterly bonuses, the laundered drug money.. it all goes to the NA motors, not to the turbos. No way around it.

STG

Great points. Should be the other way around with the names. Someone needs to be fired at PAG.

randr

If you don't like turbos buy a GT3T - some of us like our turbo charged Carreras.

Its easy if you want a NA you can put money down on a 992 GT3 right now and be at the front of the queue.

randr

Complete cobblers - how the hell do turbos sap involvement - that comment makes absolutely no sense particularly as the GT3 comes with every driving aid ever thought of by Porsche.

I was flogging my X51 991.2 S around a track in amongst a pack of 488GTBs the other day (thanks to an invite from Ferrari). It was very involving. The involvement comes from how you drive the car largely because the car doesn't make the driver but rather its the driver that makes the car,

You need to drive a well set up BMW GTS or AMG GT R - clearly drivers cars and the GT2 RS, Nick Tandy and Lars Kern think its a drivers car.

The NA crowd really need to get over this stuff. It really is becoming utterly numbing.

The T is actually an interesting concept - with RAS, SPASM, PTV, short gears and standard svelte body it'll be a great little mover. Particularly on hilly, twisty back roads. Torque plus short gearing - winner plus winner.

A lot will depend on the gear ratios/final drive but it is very conceivable that this car may in fact be a lot more fun in the real world than the GT3T. (450Nm @ 1700rpm and gears as torque multipliers Porsche may have been very clever GT3 460Nm @ 6000rpm - good on track with longer gears......but in the realm of twisty back roads).

Drifting

That turbos decrease driver involvement is clear as day. I'm not going to try to change your personal mind. People are already voting with their feet.
The turbo version of the 991.2 carerra and 718 boxster/cayman are all selling less than their NA predecessors, while values of the 991.1 are actually going up here in america.

Any halfway decent car is more fun to drive on a track. I would enjoy driving a 991.2 GTS/powerkit on a track. However I would enjoy driving a 991 GT3 more. I've even driven both of those cars back to back on a racetrack. Both are fun on a track, but a GT3 is 5X more fun, nimble and alive than the turbo carerras.

Haven't driven the BMW GTS, but I have driven the mercedes GT R. Again a very nice sports car, but visibility and steering feel inferior to GT3/RS, heavy, weight noticeable in any real turn, modest but noticeable lag.

"Tip, it's the driver that makes the car." Hmm. I assume we are both good drivers given our track experience, but if the type of car makes no difference, why aren't we all driving Yugos?

I don't know why you "turbo guys" feel threatened my previous comments. Maybe its because there is some essential truth you just don't understand...?

This is the why the two main rennlist threads on the GT3/RS have a total of 1.5 millions views, why the two biggest threads on the 991 turbo forum have a total of 60K views.

Just as with car sales, this math is quite clear on whether NA or turbos are more involving.

evilfij

The original T was designed to be a car to modify off the showroom floor.

Hence the T/R. Maybe owners will do it with this one.

What the T needs is bigger turbos (or a 3.8 turbo motor). I can guarantee that by the time it is out of warranty you will be able to take any 991.2 and make it GTS level power with an aftermarket tune and power kit. Put on Cup2s like the GT3. Add lightness lotus style. Forged wheels (maybe turbo style to keep it all Porsche parts). Maybe a CF hood and fenders. Lithium battery. Remove the AC (why no AC delete option on this or GT3). It would be a shame to gut the pretty interior and I suppose people like their multiple (heavy) airbags, but anyone who orders one without LWBs and rear seat delete (I am sure they will be required to be paired as the LWBs don’t fold) should be shot. (Why does no one add lightness to their 991?) The T with GTS power, cup2s and a little less weight would be within a hair of GT3.

I am not an anti-turbo NA fanboy and the base is plenty fast, but I agree this spec would be perfect with more power turbo or not.

Or just have porsche make a manual trans GT2 touring of my dreams.

randr

Unfortunately, the brutal reality is NA cars are largely dead and buried.

I clearly prefer turbo charged cars by a large margin as do most Porsche owners - the maths is indeed clear, given Porsche sell far more turbocharged vehicles than NA vehicles and far more PDK vehicles than manuals.

At the end of the day Porsche sports cars have to deliver performance, the market expects that - the last of the Porsche NAs just about manages it (i'll put the engine failures to one side).

It is lucky indeed that Porsche currently caters to a small NA niche market. A reality, that Porsche is also aware of, is there is and has been an ongoing drift away from Porsche to other brands and this drift is occurring at the top end (I have seen a number of long term Porsche owners move across to McLaren inc. myself).

Importantly they are also aware of the general drift away from sports cars as the principle purchasers of sports cars age (and literally can no longer get in and out of them).

Anyhow the T will make a lot of sense to the younger audience and to those that want a compact, svelte, great handling Porsche with performance to burn thanks to short gearing (if that proves to be correct, but lowered top end)

I see the T weighs in at 3142lbs whereas the 991.1 GT3 is 3197lbs

evilfij

US press release.

Not much new, but confirms LWBs for US and mandatory rear seat delete with LWBs. No mention of radio delete. Also says: “Similar to the 911 GTS models, sound insulation has been reduced” so not clear how much cutting was done.

http://press.porsche.com/news/release.php?id=1053

Now on the website, but configurator is not up yet.

Drifting

Agree that NA engines are going away, but not its because the customers don't like them, it's because of emission and fuel economy regulations being forced on the auto industry by tree hugger legislators in government.

Porsche isn't currently making all turbo vehicles (except for GT cars) because they wanted to, they are doing so because they were forced to.
So yes Porsche now sells more turbos than NA cars, because they were forced to.
If you want to compare what CUSTOMERS prefer, then look at the sales numbers of the 911 carrera, cayman, and boxster and compare total sales of generation 2 turbos vs generation 1 NA models. It's clear that the NA models are preferred as they sold more of them. Apples to apples comparison is needed for clarity here.

I do agree there is a general drift away from sports cars. Millennials are far more concerned with the brand/function of their smartphone and laptop than they are with owning a car, let alone a sports car.

Many governments are passing legislation to ban production of any new pure ICE cars 20-25 years from now.
Its certainly possible that car choices for my grandchildren will only consist of electric or hybrid cars, and there may not be any pure NA (or pure turbo cars) available to purchase new by that point in time.

py0413

let’s guess what kind of markups dealers are planning this time.

n4v4nod

UK Configurator is up!

Ed911.2

I think we agree on here that all 911 variants are good but we have our own personal favourite ones.

Porsche’s problem now is more one of segmentation. There is such an expansive range that it’s very hard to create a “new” variant without significant overlap with the others. It’s blurred even more by the huge option lists - it’s quite possible to make a GTS that is lighter than the T with a few different choices on both.

Maybe they should give up and just have a “911”. Choose N/A or turbo, engine power, narrow or wide, manual (6 or 7) or PDK, 2 or 4 driven wheels, what kind of body kit, etc. Come to think of it, we’re not that far away from this now with the amount of customisation available.

I am torn between viewing the Carrera T as a genuine attempt to make an entry level “enthusiasts” 911 or as a cynical marketing exercise...

evilfij

Standard leather interior, nice. US configurator is now up and the standard leather appears to be a UK thing.

Switching to LWBs gets alcantara seat centers (no stripe) but requires alcantara steering wheel and gear shift for extra cost.

991TR

Should come with lightweight lithium battery and PCCB--that's another 60 or so pounds. Plus the GT3 RS CF hood and fixed rear spoiler/ducktail (no motor) and A/C/heater delete option.