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Also, in the future, people always like less complexity and less to go wrong. Not having to worry about two expensive turbos putting strain on an engine and/or needing replacement is something markets generally favor. As well, from what I understand, 991.1's have earned a reputation of being perhaps the most reliable 911's yet.
Even though I'm in the NA preference camp, I've owned Turbos so I'm somewhat agnostic on this. But your last point (above) hasn't proven historically to be true. Price 76-78 US Turbos against same model year 911s (and SC in 78.) Wildly different values in favor of the Turbo. But the Turbo is considerably more complex.
I'm not equating modern 991.2s with 930 Turbos, nor saying your primary thesis about .1s holding value better than .2s is wrong -- just pointing out that the complexity argument doesn't really hold.
Even though I'm in the NA preference camp, I've owned Turbos so I'm somewhat agnostic on this. But your last point (above) hasn't proven historically to be true. Price 76-78 US Turbos against same model year 911s (and SC in 78.) Wildly different values in favor of the Turbo. But the Turbo is considerably more complex.
I'm not equating modern 991.2s with 930 Turbos, nor saying your primary thesis about .1s holding value better than .2s is wrong -- just pointing out that the complexity argument doesn't really hold.
Cheers!
Of course, but those are “Turbos.” Putting turbos in Carreras in a day and age where turbos are in every car (back then the novelty was massive) changes things a lot, thus also rising the novelty of N/A cars (which were the normal back then). IMO turbo Carreras may also likely affect the future value of Turbo’s, but that’s another topic.
But I get what you mean. I think special cars are valued highly, no matter how complex. But in general, when talking the more regular production models, generally simpler = valued.
Yes, I personally have no doubt this will be the case, and I think we already have seen it proven in how the market reacted to *every* 991.1 once the .2's came out (and the tepid market reaction to .2's in terms of its initial sales). .1's all of a sudden held their value to a level I haven't see on a modern mass produced car, and even started to appreciate. People who bought 991.1's a year or two ago could literally sell their cars for more, today. This is a precursor for the future, imo.
911's are very consistent in how they're valued in the future. Of course, rare models always get highest priority, then when it comes to more "normal" models; purer, "last of," more soulful generations always do better. For example, air cooled 911's which are far inferior to water cooled models in terms of performance, now are skyrocketing. Even base, high mileage Carreras are seeing classic car like appreciation and values. They're golden and they'll only keep going up. Other examples are manual (especially GT) cars, etc.
991's I liken to the 993's of the N/A 911's. Whether or not they see 993 like appreciation, if I'm looking at this like a stock, I think compared to other modern 911's; they'll depreciate the least going forward, stabilize the soonest, and appreciate the most, whenever they bottom out and start to go back up again. I can't say when that'll be, but eventually IMO it's already written (unless Porsche brings back N/A Carreras, then the "last of the N/A" magic will be moot and the car will just be judged on its own merit).
991.2 starts a new generation of 911, i.e the all turbo gen. So when 992's come out, nothing about the 991.2 will likely give the enthusiast market that "last of"/"one of a kind" type of effect, therefore it will have to only be judged on its own merit. 991.1's will always be the last of the N/A Carreras (the fastest N/A Carreras as even the Base 991.1 is faster than a 997 S, and arguable the best N/A Carreras). Therefore, in that respect, irreplaceable. If you look at historical 911 values, this is always a recipe for success.
Of course, this is speaking in car terms. Nobody is saying to buy a 991.1 to eventually make money on it (plenty of better things to get vastly quicker returns). BUT, if you're already buying a car, which is a depreciating asset, then looking at it like will you lose less with a 991.1 (which in its own way is like making money), and if you keep it for a very long time, will it eventually make you money back (or maybe more), is a more realistic approach, and where IMO the 991.1 will pay its dividends.
Also, in the future, people always like less complexity and less to go wrong. Not having to worry about two expensive turbos putting strain on an engine and/or needing replacement is something markets generally favor. As well, from what I understand, 991.1's have earned a reputation of being perhaps the most reliable 911's yet.
Nice write up. I agree with your points. Slightly biased as I own a 991.1 but you have some logical points here. Cars aren't investments but it's good to have one that depreciates the least.
I had quite the time finding my 991.1 C4. I've purchased many used cars before, but they were used Mercedes, BMWs, and Lexus and never had trouble negotiating a good deal. Took me well over 6+ months of searching every single day. I came close on 3 of them, most were sold even if i called within a couple days of listing. I thought they were overpriced at the time or just did not act quickly. One of them was a local 2015 C2 CPO with 24k miles with original MSRP of $113k and was not in the greatest condition either. They were asking $75k, I offered $74k (which I thought was extremely fair) and they said basically no way. In fact, they RAISED the price $1k up after I left and it was gone a few days later. Quite the unexpected experience since I figured most enthusiasts would go for an S model. Over the duration of my search I saw prices continued to rise slightly, a little frustrating since I certainly paid a premium on the car I purchased a couple months ago compared to what I would have paid a year earlier.
If I had to predict, I think the 991.1 models will decline a little bit once the 992 comes out. After the 992's flood the market I think that's when the 991.1 markets will stabilize.
My daily driver is a VW Golf R w/ just as much HP... so if I want the turbo experience, I have it with that car. Albeit, obviously the 911 is a whole different category of vehicle.
I feel like I kind of have the best of both worlds - 7 MT in the 911, DSG in the Golf R. The Golf is so, so much faster than my 911 in the mid-range... but, if you rev the 9A1 up to redline, it is just such an amazing sensation.
Interesting.
I am the original owner of a 2004 Golf R32. It is obviously N/A and with a 6-speed manual. Great visibility and a car that can basically do everything that my 1990 Carrera-II did. I've kept it relatively stock, except for the Koni FSD treatment.
Nice write up. I agree with your points. Slightly biased as I own a 991.1 but you have some logical points here. Cars aren't investments but it's good to have one that depreciates the least.
I had quite the time finding my 991.1 C4. I've purchased many used cars before, but they were used Mercedes, BMWs, and Lexus and never had trouble negotiating a good deal. Took me well over 6+ months of searching every single day. I came close on 3 of them, most were sold even if i called within a couple days of listing. I thought they were overpriced at the time or just did not act quickly. One of them was a local 2015 C2 CPO with 24k miles with original MSRP of $113k and was not in the greatest condition either. They were asking $75k, I offered $74k (which I thought was extremely fair) and they said basically no way. In fact, they RAISED the price $1k up after I left and it was gone a few days later. Quite the unexpected experience since I figured most enthusiasts would go for an S model. Over the duration of my search I saw prices continued to rise slightly, a little frustrating since I certainly paid a premium on the car I purchased a couple months ago compared to what I would have paid a year earlier.
If I had to predict, I think the 991.1 models will decline a little bit once the 992 comes out. After the 992's flood the market I think that's when the 991.1 markets will stabilize.
Thank you, and yup! My exact experience as well. Painful search for my 991.1 (with great reward). I’ve never experienced such a hot market on a modern, plentfullly produced car, prices kept creeping up, negotiating $1K on a car got me turned down and cars I tried to negotiate sold instantly out from under me. I was literally ready to give up and just get another Macan until I saw mine. And I literally flew across the country to get it!
This is how hot the .1 market is. Base, S, GTS, et al. And for good reason.
From what little I have seen and know about the upcoming 992, it seems to be a little wider, maybe a bit longer, but possibly of greater significance is the changeover to the digital instruments (except tach) and a new Panamera-type dash layout. The photos I saw on Rennlist did not actually show the entire dash, but I thought they gave a good indication of what it will be.
Personally, I like it in the new Panamera, but I don't think I want a 911 like that. So, for me, at this early point, I like the 991.2 interior the most, closely followed by the 991.1. It will be very interesting to see how the 992 digital dash will sell. I'm old, so probably a lot of you younger guys will love it, because it will likely work well with the rest of the digital world, like refrigerators, home security system alerts, micro-location weather reports, etc. I do believe that the newly developing internet of things will be amazing, but some of us are beyond help. When I was a little kid people were trying not to call the new-fangled "refrigerators" by the old term "ice-box." That is not a joke, but perhaps I wish it were.
Painful search for my 991.1 ...This is how hot the .1 market is.
Originally Posted by shake1
I had quite the time finding my 991.1 ...Over the duration of my search I saw prices continued to rise slightly, a little frustrating since I certainly paid a premium on the car I purchased a couple months ago compared to what I would have paid a year earlier.
Hmm very interesting, I didn't realize good .1s were getting so hard to come by. I wonder if some of the .2 owner angst against comments by .1 owners who don't need the extra speed but enjoy the extra sound and linearity comes from having tried and failed to get a .1 at a reasonable price during their search.
If you want to see an objective test look at the Sport Auto Super test results - they measure everything right down to lift and down force, plus full MAHA dyno and a raft of handling, braking and acceleration tests. Plus timed fully instrumented runs round the Ring and Hock Kurs
The 991.2 GTS was ranked ahead of the 991.1 GT3 and GT3 RS - for what its worth they do the most exhaustive independent testing.
Its a pretty reasonable assessment and you don't get to much debate about the outcomes. The 991.2 GTS is placed 6th a result thats very hard to ignore.
Even higher than 605s ??? now that's really hard to believe...
Funny how some people can’t get out of the past. I purchased a new C7 Z51 in 2015 and everyone on the C7 forum bitched about the shape of the rear tail lights. I now own a 2017 Carrera C2S and everyone on this forum bitches about the sound.......simply amazing how for some people one design element trumps everything else that makes a superior package. I guess that’s why horses are still favored by some!
Funny how some people can’t get out of the past. I purchased a new C7 Z51 in 2015 and everyone on the C7 forum bitched about the shape of the rear tail lights. I now own a 2017 Carrera C2S and everyone on this forum bitches about the sound.......simply amazing how for some people one design element trumps everything else that makes a superior package. I guess that’s why horses are still favored by some!
This isn’t about future/past. It’s about what we deem better/worse or more appealing/less appealing. The Chainsmokers ain’t The Beatles.
This isn’t about future/past. It’s about what we deem better/worse or more appealing/less appealing. The Chainsmokers ain’t The Beatles.
It would be interesting to poll people new to a 911 to see how they compare on the issue of sound as compared to long time 911 owners. I test drove both a .1s and .2s and honestly didn’t notice a difference in sound, but I did notice the .2 felt stronger and more buttoned down than the .1. Neither car sounded half as good as the C7......but that’s not why it won me over either. I am not putting down either car ...... simply noting similarities between Porsche and Corvette enthusiasts........they simply are resistant to change!
09-29-2017, 11:25 AM
