991 turbo - turbo lag
11-26-2015, 09:53 PM
#1
991 turbo - turbo lag
I have a 991 turbo - built with all the turbo s pieces except for ceramics ( wife drives the car and it's our winter beater
)
I got an aftermarket exhaust (AWE) to replace the stock which sounded like crap. AWE, without the muffler bypass sounds better than stock but still not as good as a NA 991.
I was gonna dump a fortune on mods - hoping it would sound better - and I am a huge mod guy - but unless I removed cats, the car, even if got more torque or hp, would have continued to sound like average...regardless of Plenum, intake, intercooler and ECU.
Last thing the car needs is more HP. I want more legal exhaust sound, torque, and anything I can do to get rid of the turbo lag that is so little but makes me hate the car every single time I drive it...
Any other non exotic cars that can drive in crummy Canadian winters with a back seat and destroy most cars out there i need to look at instead ?
I have a gt4 to track so not looking an all in one solution.
)I got an aftermarket exhaust (AWE) to replace the stock which sounded like crap. AWE, without the muffler bypass sounds better than stock but still not as good as a NA 991.
I was gonna dump a fortune on mods - hoping it would sound better - and I am a huge mod guy - but unless I removed cats, the car, even if got more torque or hp, would have continued to sound like average...regardless of Plenum, intake, intercooler and ECU.
Last thing the car needs is more HP. I want more legal exhaust sound, torque, and anything I can do to get rid of the turbo lag that is so little but makes me hate the car every single time I drive it...
Any other non exotic cars that can drive in crummy Canadian winters with a back seat and destroy most cars out there i need to look at instead ?
I have a gt4 to track so not looking an all in one solution.
11-27-2015, 11:33 AM
#6
I look forward to your comments on your GT4 vs the TT on track. You definitely should try the TT on track for at least one session even if you do not plan to track it regularly. If you cannot tolerate turbo lag, perhaps you should get a GT3 rather than mod your TT. FWIW, I found the GT3 much more confidence inspiring--and faster-- on track than the GT4. My guess is that you would run nearly the same times on most tracks in a TT as in a GT3.
11-27-2015, 11:37 AM
#7
Forgot to add that you might want to consider a Panamera GTS for Canadian winters. Mine was a monster with winter compound tires last winter when we got seven feet of snow here. It not only has two fantastic back seats that fold down easily, but a large trunk.
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11-27-2015, 11:39 AM
#8
I have a 991 turbo - built with all the turbo s pieces except for ceramics ( wife drives the car and it's our winter beater )
I got an aftermarket exhaust (AWE) to replace the stock which sounded like crap. AWE, without the muffler bypass sounds better than stock but still not as good as a NA 991.
I was gonna dump a fortune on mods - hoping it would sound better - and I am a huge mod guy - but unless I removed cats, the car, even if got more torque or hp, would have continued to sound like average...regardless of Plenum, intake, intercooler and ECU.
Last thing the car needs is more HP. I want more legal exhaust sound, torque, and anything I can do to get rid of the turbo lag that is so little but makes me hate the car every single time I drive it...
Any other non exotic cars that can drive in crummy Canadian winters with a back seat and destroy most cars out there i need to look at instead ?
I have a gt4 to track so not looking an all in one solution.
)I got an aftermarket exhaust (AWE) to replace the stock which sounded like crap. AWE, without the muffler bypass sounds better than stock but still not as good as a NA 991.
I was gonna dump a fortune on mods - hoping it would sound better - and I am a huge mod guy - but unless I removed cats, the car, even if got more torque or hp, would have continued to sound like average...regardless of Plenum, intake, intercooler and ECU.
Last thing the car needs is more HP. I want more legal exhaust sound, torque, and anything I can do to get rid of the turbo lag that is so little but makes me hate the car every single time I drive it...
Any other non exotic cars that can drive in crummy Canadian winters with a back seat and destroy most cars out there i need to look at instead ?
I have a gt4 to track so not looking an all in one solution.
11-27-2015, 02:27 PM
#9
I'm on a quest to get the car to sound a lot more like a 911 GTS.
If you start with the Sharkwerks pipes, that's a pretty straightforward removal of all mufflers. ($1900)
Then I would get the AWE intake for induction sounds. ($1400)
I would then assess if I want more induction or exhaust sound from there. If the answer is induction/turbo, the IPD plenum and Y at that point have been said to slightly amplify turbo and induction sounds. ($2600 for both).
If the answer is more exhaust, the Fabspeed or 100 cell cats (or none, if you're into that kind of thing) would be next. ($2500)
You could then go for Kline equal length headers ($?), but they wont just amplify the exhaust, they'll un-boxer it. I still haven't figured out if thats an improvement. It wouldnt sound like a 911 GTS any more with those headers. It would sound more exotic, sure. But less boxer.
If you start with the Sharkwerks pipes, that's a pretty straightforward removal of all mufflers. ($1900)
Then I would get the AWE intake for induction sounds. ($1400)
I would then assess if I want more induction or exhaust sound from there. If the answer is induction/turbo, the IPD plenum and Y at that point have been said to slightly amplify turbo and induction sounds. ($2600 for both).
If the answer is more exhaust, the Fabspeed or 100 cell cats (or none, if you're into that kind of thing) would be next. ($2500)
You could then go for Kline equal length headers ($?), but they wont just amplify the exhaust, they'll un-boxer it. I still haven't figured out if thats an improvement. It wouldnt sound like a 911 GTS any more with those headers. It would sound more exotic, sure. But less boxer.
11-27-2015, 03:03 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
If you make it really loud, it will be tiring to take long drives and destroy the every day usability of the car. Sharkwerks exhaust is all you need. Sounds great without being overbearing.
11-27-2015, 03:30 PM
#12
With the utmost respect, that question itself is a little telling. "voiding warranties" hasn't been a thing in the US since the Magnussen Moss Act, which said that the company that wrote the warranty can not refuse a claim based on the use of non-original manufacturer parts. The law was primarily lobbied for by folks that make maintenance parts such as oil filters and water pumps, but it also applies to parts that a hobbyist might replace, such as headers instead of the original manifolds.
In theory, the burden is on Porsche to prove that the unoriginal part caused or contributed to a failure before they can refuse the claim. That's the theory.
In reality, there are three parties. You, the dealer where the car is (namely the service manager), and the district service manager for Porsche. The reason for this importance is that the motivations behind the dealer service manager and the district service manager are substantially different. The dealer service manager works for the dealer. They, for the most part, actually represent a winning party in a warranty claim. The dealer is going to be paid by Porsche for the labor. The district service manager represents the loser, Porsche, who has to pay for both the labor and the parts.
So you can imagine the politics. The dealer wants to "do you a favor" and always fix the car. Now you have an obligation to return for maintenance and more cars.
Porsche wants you to buy more cars, but on the other hand does not want to pay for fixing mistakes made by owners looking for more performance. A 911 TTS engine, even at Porsche's cost, is far more expensive than they'll likely make off of you in the future. They also don't want to be "that manufacturer" that lets owners get away with doing dumb stuff.
If you have enough to fix the car no matter what (and most modifiers don't, truthfully), then you can pay-to-play and take the risks regardless. Oftentimes though, it's those individuals that buy so many cars that the dealer is willing to go out on a limb and try and get away with fixing your car on warrantee without the district service manager (Porsche) noticing. Just based on odds, neither of us are those people. The opposite can be true too. I've read of dealers (and Porsche) refusing to cover a claim because the car seems to be pretty poorly treated, though they can't prove anything, but they're relationship with the customer is poor and what's left to happen is for everyone to lawyer up, and they employ attorneys and we don't.
Since we likely aren't those people, we have to make very careful decisions on what the risks are. Will headers hurt an engine on a stock tune? Probably not. Could they push an on-the-edge tune over the edge? Certainly. What would they hurt? The engine? The transmission? There may be safe ways on these motors to make 20% more power. But that torque (and those new sticky tires) could be the end of a transaxle. How well do we know our service writer? How much do you trust that he'd go out on a limb for you to fix a car they know you broke? Perhaps you have that relationship. Some do, some don't. Regardless of a relationship, if you pop an engine, Porsche audits the PCM and can see if things like Cobb's AccessPort or GIAC have ever been used. If they have, you can bet that they won't likely warranty a new engine or transmission. Water pump? Sure, if the engine redline wasn't jacked up.
Every car manufacturer is working harder and harder to hard-code exception conditions into the PCMs algorithms and create more ways to diagnose causation. This makes "getting away with" moving a car outside it's reliability window harder and harder. This arms race will go on and on as it has for 40 years.
Sorry for the novel. I read a lot of people approaching the modification of cars without the complexity of the risks in mind. I want to say my piece and then "let it go".
In theory, the burden is on Porsche to prove that the unoriginal part caused or contributed to a failure before they can refuse the claim. That's the theory.
In reality, there are three parties. You, the dealer where the car is (namely the service manager), and the district service manager for Porsche. The reason for this importance is that the motivations behind the dealer service manager and the district service manager are substantially different. The dealer service manager works for the dealer. They, for the most part, actually represent a winning party in a warranty claim. The dealer is going to be paid by Porsche for the labor. The district service manager represents the loser, Porsche, who has to pay for both the labor and the parts.
So you can imagine the politics. The dealer wants to "do you a favor" and always fix the car. Now you have an obligation to return for maintenance and more cars.
Porsche wants you to buy more cars, but on the other hand does not want to pay for fixing mistakes made by owners looking for more performance. A 911 TTS engine, even at Porsche's cost, is far more expensive than they'll likely make off of you in the future. They also don't want to be "that manufacturer" that lets owners get away with doing dumb stuff.
If you have enough to fix the car no matter what (and most modifiers don't, truthfully), then you can pay-to-play and take the risks regardless. Oftentimes though, it's those individuals that buy so many cars that the dealer is willing to go out on a limb and try and get away with fixing your car on warrantee without the district service manager (Porsche) noticing. Just based on odds, neither of us are those people. The opposite can be true too. I've read of dealers (and Porsche) refusing to cover a claim because the car seems to be pretty poorly treated, though they can't prove anything, but they're relationship with the customer is poor and what's left to happen is for everyone to lawyer up, and they employ attorneys and we don't.
Since we likely aren't those people, we have to make very careful decisions on what the risks are. Will headers hurt an engine on a stock tune? Probably not. Could they push an on-the-edge tune over the edge? Certainly. What would they hurt? The engine? The transmission? There may be safe ways on these motors to make 20% more power. But that torque (and those new sticky tires) could be the end of a transaxle. How well do we know our service writer? How much do you trust that he'd go out on a limb for you to fix a car they know you broke? Perhaps you have that relationship. Some do, some don't. Regardless of a relationship, if you pop an engine, Porsche audits the PCM and can see if things like Cobb's AccessPort or GIAC have ever been used. If they have, you can bet that they won't likely warranty a new engine or transmission. Water pump? Sure, if the engine redline wasn't jacked up.
Every car manufacturer is working harder and harder to hard-code exception conditions into the PCMs algorithms and create more ways to diagnose causation. This makes "getting away with" moving a car outside it's reliability window harder and harder. This arms race will go on and on as it has for 40 years.
Sorry for the novel. I read a lot of people approaching the modification of cars without the complexity of the risks in mind. I want to say my piece and then "let it go".
11-27-2015, 09:07 PM
#14
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by Visceral
With the utmost respect, that question itself is a little telling. "voiding warranties" hasn't been a thing in the US since the Magnussen Moss Act, which said that the company that wrote the warranty can not refuse a claim based on the use of non-original manufacturer parts. The law was primarily lobbied for by folks that make maintenance parts such as oil filters and water pumps, but it also applies to parts that a hobbyist might replace, such as headers instead of the original manifolds.
In theory, the burden is on Porsche to prove that the unoriginal part caused or contributed to a failure before they can refuse the claim. That's the theory.
In reality, there are three parties. You, the dealer where the car is (namely the service manager), and the district service manager for Porsche. The reason for this importance is that the motivations behind the dealer service manager and the district service manager are substantially different. The dealer service manager works for the dealer. They, for the most part, actually represent a winning party in a warranty claim. The dealer is going to be paid by Porsche for the labor. The district service manager represents the loser, Porsche, who has to pay for both the labor and the parts.
So you can imagine the politics. The dealer wants to "do you a favor" and always fix the car. Now you have an obligation to return for maintenance and more cars.
Porsche wants you to buy more cars, but on the other hand does not want to pay for fixing mistakes made by owners looking for more performance. A 911 TTS engine, even at Porsche's cost, is far more expensive than they'll likely make off of you in the future. They also don't want to be "that manufacturer" that lets owners get away with doing dumb stuff.
If you have enough to fix the car no matter what (and most modifiers don't, truthfully), then you can pay-to-play and take the risks regardless. Oftentimes though, it's those individuals that buy so many cars that the dealer is willing to go out on a limb and try and get away with fixing your car on warrantee without the district service manager (Porsche) noticing. Just based on odds, neither of us are those people. The opposite can be true too. I've read of dealers (and Porsche) refusing to cover a claim because the car seems to be pretty poorly treated, though they can't prove anything, but they're relationship with the customer is poor and what's left to happen is for everyone to lawyer up, and they employ attorneys and we don't.
Since we likely aren't those people, we have to make very careful decisions on what the risks are. Will headers hurt an engine on a stock tune? Probably not. Could they push an on-the-edge tune over the edge? Certainly. What would they hurt? The engine? The transmission? There may be safe ways on these motors to make 20% more power. But that torque (and those new sticky tires) could be the end of a transaxle. How well do we know our service writer? How much do you trust that he'd go out on a limb for you to fix a car they know you broke? Perhaps you have that relationship. Some do, some don't. Regardless of a relationship, if you pop an engine, Porsche audits the PCM and can see if things like Cobb's AccessPort or GIAC have ever been used. If they have, you can bet that they won't likely warranty a new engine or transmission. Water pump? Sure, if the engine redline wasn't jacked up.
Every car manufacturer is working harder and harder to hard-code exception conditions into the PCMs algorithms and create more ways to diagnose causation. This makes "getting away with" moving a car outside it's reliability window harder and harder. This arms race will go on and on as it has for 40 years.
Sorry for the novel. I read a lot of people approaching the modification of cars without the complexity of the risks in mind. I want to say my piece and then "let it go".
In theory, the burden is on Porsche to prove that the unoriginal part caused or contributed to a failure before they can refuse the claim. That's the theory.
In reality, there are three parties. You, the dealer where the car is (namely the service manager), and the district service manager for Porsche. The reason for this importance is that the motivations behind the dealer service manager and the district service manager are substantially different. The dealer service manager works for the dealer. They, for the most part, actually represent a winning party in a warranty claim. The dealer is going to be paid by Porsche for the labor. The district service manager represents the loser, Porsche, who has to pay for both the labor and the parts.
So you can imagine the politics. The dealer wants to "do you a favor" and always fix the car. Now you have an obligation to return for maintenance and more cars.
Porsche wants you to buy more cars, but on the other hand does not want to pay for fixing mistakes made by owners looking for more performance. A 911 TTS engine, even at Porsche's cost, is far more expensive than they'll likely make off of you in the future. They also don't want to be "that manufacturer" that lets owners get away with doing dumb stuff.
If you have enough to fix the car no matter what (and most modifiers don't, truthfully), then you can pay-to-play and take the risks regardless. Oftentimes though, it's those individuals that buy so many cars that the dealer is willing to go out on a limb and try and get away with fixing your car on warrantee without the district service manager (Porsche) noticing. Just based on odds, neither of us are those people. The opposite can be true too. I've read of dealers (and Porsche) refusing to cover a claim because the car seems to be pretty poorly treated, though they can't prove anything, but they're relationship with the customer is poor and what's left to happen is for everyone to lawyer up, and they employ attorneys and we don't.
Since we likely aren't those people, we have to make very careful decisions on what the risks are. Will headers hurt an engine on a stock tune? Probably not. Could they push an on-the-edge tune over the edge? Certainly. What would they hurt? The engine? The transmission? There may be safe ways on these motors to make 20% more power. But that torque (and those new sticky tires) could be the end of a transaxle. How well do we know our service writer? How much do you trust that he'd go out on a limb for you to fix a car they know you broke? Perhaps you have that relationship. Some do, some don't. Regardless of a relationship, if you pop an engine, Porsche audits the PCM and can see if things like Cobb's AccessPort or GIAC have ever been used. If they have, you can bet that they won't likely warranty a new engine or transmission. Water pump? Sure, if the engine redline wasn't jacked up.
Every car manufacturer is working harder and harder to hard-code exception conditions into the PCMs algorithms and create more ways to diagnose causation. This makes "getting away with" moving a car outside it's reliability window harder and harder. This arms race will go on and on as it has for 40 years.
Sorry for the novel. I read a lot of people approaching the modification of cars without the complexity of the risks in mind. I want to say my piece and then "let it go".
That is one of the main reasons I have used Champion Motorsports to mod my 991 TTS. Their warranty is the same length as the factor warranty AND it covers damage to OEM pets caused by any of the mods they install. No other US tuner does this for Porsche mods of which I am aware. It also explains why their mods usually take a little longer to come out than their competitors -- they test and test and test them to make sure they work and won't kill the car so they don't have to cover warranty claims under their warranty.
http://www.championmotorsport.com/v/...yagreement.pdf
11-27-2015, 10:13 PM
#15
After reading the OP i'm completely lost. It is headed TURBO LAG? What is OP trying to say here? OP? Can OP perhaps explain? Flesh it all out so it makes some sort of sense?
OK. Got the part about wasting money on the AWE, which appears to be an obvious fail (am I to be surprised?), but what other mods could have OP been referring to to fix the AWE save binning it and starting again? I mean he clearly states he doesn't want additional power or handling improvements - has a GT4 for track - so no mods required there.
I guess it is no wonder the thread has deviated in all different directions as clearly no one else gets the OP's message either. Odd thread indeed
.
OK. Got the part about wasting money on the AWE, which appears to be an obvious fail (am I to be surprised?), but what other mods could have OP been referring to to fix the AWE save binning it and starting again? I mean he clearly states he doesn't want additional power or handling improvements - has a GT4 for track - so no mods required there.
I guess it is no wonder the thread has deviated in all different directions as clearly no one else gets the OP's message either. Odd thread indeed
.
