Consensus on stock exhaust and, who is considering getting an AM system?
08-14-2014, 08:48 AM
#211
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Speed - sorry I am not going to do the search for you. As to loud exhausts, have you driven a Ferrari recently? My 430 was freaking loud - nice sound mind you but guaranteed to attract attention - perhaps what Ferrari wanted. I sold it because my GT3 was a superior car all around and much lower profile.
As I recall the GT3 RMS issue had PCNA claiming the aftermarket exhaust affected back pressure which - they claimed - caused the RMS leak. True or not? As to getting an engineering report, yeah sure. How much would that cost? PCNA holds all the technical cards in such a case.
Litigation in the USA is horribly expensive and taking on PCNA will cost far more than even an EP system and losing is always a possibility.
As I recall the GT3 RMS issue had PCNA claiming the aftermarket exhaust affected back pressure which - they claimed - caused the RMS leak. True or not? As to getting an engineering report, yeah sure. How much would that cost? PCNA holds all the technical cards in such a case.
Litigation in the USA is horribly expensive and taking on PCNA will cost far more than even an EP system and losing is always a possibility.
08-14-2014, 09:54 AM
#212
Race Director
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: KC ex pat marooned in NY
Posts: 13,005
Likes: 0
Received 14 Likes
on
14 Posts
True^^, remember PCNA decides the warranty position, not the dealer. The dealer can say whatever he wants, but on high ticket warranty work in the US and Canada, PCNA makes the call, regardless of dealer input. It doesnt matter how nice your exhaust looks, if you blow your motor PCNA will blame the exhaust 100% of the time. The chances of that happening are remote, but not zero. Nothing pro or con EP, just the facts, you have to decide for yourself whether it's worth it or not. On a 997.1tt with the anemic factory exhaust, yes it's clearly beneficial. Not so sure on the 991tts with the new DFI engine, Siemens ECU and 200k sticker. After the gt3 engine fiasco in the 991, I'm sure porsche is going to be very protective of the DFI engine in it's OEM form and highly likely to "blame mods" for any issues.
Alex has a good point re the cats, changing the muffler is one thing, but changing the cats is quiet another in the eyes of PCNA I'm afraid. One would probably be more likely to get away with it if the factory restrictive cats are left in place I suppose, but still rolling bthe dice even with the SW pipes. JMO
Alex has a good point re the cats, changing the muffler is one thing, but changing the cats is quiet another in the eyes of PCNA I'm afraid. One would probably be more likely to get away with it if the factory restrictive cats are left in place I suppose, but still rolling bthe dice even with the SW pipes. JMO
08-14-2014, 10:02 AM
#213
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In a van down by the Ottawa River ...
Posts: 4,132
Received 460 Likes
on
257 Posts
As you say, common sense generally prevails at one point. A manufacturer's warranty can not exclude or deny a customer's statutory or legal rights, and where it can be conclusively proven the component has had no involvement in the problem, warranty has to be acknowledged at one point.
Now on the other hand, when an AM product clearly has the potential to create warranty related issues (such as that system shown in the clip with all that nasty gunshot going on) or, has had an obvious involvement in an engine component failure, then it would be a very hard case for any end user to contest. Can you just imagine bringing in your TTS with a blown turbo, damaged Turbo seal or compressor wheel, burned or damaged valves etc with an exhaust fitted like that one shown on the you tube clip? You would be laughed out of the place.....and rightfully so.
As Alex points out these cars are becoming increasingly more complex and reliant upon the ancillary equipment to be functioning in accordance with the manufacturers requirements. Any exhaust system or pipe that creates nasty gunshot or, uses a cat converter (regardless of brand) which clearly sits outside of the OEM's core design principles has the potential to create engine complications. And then it becomes the end users problem to prove when things inevitably go wrong.
Agree totally Alex and do you blame them? I mean when you read the hyped up marketing crap surrounding some of the junk getting bolted onto these cars you have to seriously question the logic behind these initiatives especially when you look at the restrictive X junction box components some (don't need to name names) are using in a bid to lower production costs and max out profits. The omission of cat insulation shielding is just another example again.... No wonder so many of these AM cats fail prematurely. One only needs to observe the location of the cats on the engine/car and the high susceptibility to thermal shock related issues alone.
Re your new pipe Alex from what I can see and hear it has no gunshot issues at all and does not interfere with the emission systems in any adverse way. It looks like a nice job as usual. Top quality steel and manufacture, all made in USA... I can't see any dealer being able to get any traction in declining an engine related warranty problem using that.
Maybe time for gunner to get of the fence
Now on the other hand, when an AM product clearly has the potential to create warranty related issues (such as that system shown in the clip with all that nasty gunshot going on) or, has had an obvious involvement in an engine component failure, then it would be a very hard case for any end user to contest. Can you just imagine bringing in your TTS with a blown turbo, damaged Turbo seal or compressor wheel, burned or damaged valves etc with an exhaust fitted like that one shown on the you tube clip? You would be laughed out of the place.....and rightfully so.
As Alex points out these cars are becoming increasingly more complex and reliant upon the ancillary equipment to be functioning in accordance with the manufacturers requirements. Any exhaust system or pipe that creates nasty gunshot or, uses a cat converter (regardless of brand) which clearly sits outside of the OEM's core design principles has the potential to create engine complications. And then it becomes the end users problem to prove when things inevitably go wrong.
Agree totally Alex and do you blame them? I mean when you read the hyped up marketing crap surrounding some of the junk getting bolted onto these cars you have to seriously question the logic behind these initiatives especially when you look at the restrictive X junction box components some (don't need to name names) are using in a bid to lower production costs and max out profits. The omission of cat insulation shielding is just another example again.... No wonder so many of these AM cats fail prematurely. One only needs to observe the location of the cats on the engine/car and the high susceptibility to thermal shock related issues alone.
Re your new pipe Alex from what I can see and hear it has no gunshot issues at all and does not interfere with the emission systems in any adverse way. It looks like a nice job as usual. Top quality steel and manufacture, all made in USA... I can't see any dealer being able to get any traction in declining an engine related warranty problem using that.
Maybe time for gunner to get of the fence
Maybe I already did!
Just a word about the "gunshot"comments. Some people actually want an exhaust system which is as loud (nearly) as a race car. It makes sense for manufacturers to cater to those who want one. Probably the same people who ride very loud Harleys 
From what I have seen up here and documented on Rennlist threads in the past, PCNA has denied warranty for cars with aftermarket exhausts. I recall a thread about a failed engine denied warranty coverage because of an aftermarket exhaust. On GT3's with leaky rear main seals, owners have been denied coverage because of aftermarket exhaust systems - also posted on Rennlist.
Dealers may be happy to install, on the other hand repairs over a certain amount require the approval of the PCNA tech rep who is NOT sympathetic to non OEM parts.
As to the legality, fighting PCNA in court is too costly for most to contemplate.
Regards,
From what I have seen up here and documented on Rennlist threads in the past, PCNA has denied warranty for cars with aftermarket exhausts. I recall a thread about a failed engine denied warranty coverage because of an aftermarket exhaust. On GT3's with leaky rear main seals, owners have been denied coverage because of aftermarket exhaust systems - also posted on Rennlist.
Dealers may be happy to install, on the other hand repairs over a certain amount require the approval of the PCNA tech rep who is NOT sympathetic to non OEM parts.
As to the legality, fighting PCNA in court is too costly for most to contemplate.
Regards,
I still content not all dealers are created equal and that some are better equipped at dispensing common sense than others...
08-15-2014, 09:04 PM
#214
Speed - sorry I am not going to do the search for you. As to loud exhausts, have you driven a Ferrari recently? My 430 was freaking loud - nice sound mind you but guaranteed to attract attention - perhaps what Ferrari wanted. I sold it because my GT3 was a superior car all around and much lower profile.
As I recall the GT3 RMS issue had PCNA claiming the aftermarket exhaust affected back pressure which - they claimed - caused the RMS leak. True or not? As to getting an engineering report, yeah sure. How much would that cost? PCNA holds all the technical cards in such a case.
Litigation in the USA is horribly expensive and taking on PCNA will cost far more than even an EP system and losing is always a possibility.
As I recall the GT3 RMS issue had PCNA claiming the aftermarket exhaust affected back pressure which - they claimed - caused the RMS leak. True or not? As to getting an engineering report, yeah sure. How much would that cost? PCNA holds all the technical cards in such a case.
Litigation in the USA is horribly expensive and taking on PCNA will cost far more than even an EP system and losing is always a possibility.
[/B]
Maybe I already did!
Perhaps I was just an exception, but my dealer "up here" never denied my GT3 RMS repairs under warrant despite the Shark Werks by-pass exhaust I had installed.
I still content not all dealers are created equal and that some are better equipped at dispensing common sense than others...
Maybe I already did!
Perhaps I was just an exception, but my dealer "up here" never denied my GT3 RMS repairs under warrant despite the Shark Werks by-pass exhaust I had installed.
I still content not all dealers are created equal and that some are better equipped at dispensing common sense than others...
2) I'm sure your dealer looked at the rear seal issue and the SW exhaust and decided why be an *** when there is no need least of all justification to be.
08-16-2014, 09:26 AM
#215
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In a van down by the Ottawa River ...
Posts: 4,132
Received 460 Likes
on
257 Posts
- Acme Corp, chief engineer Wile E. Coyote, using top grade mystery metal and of course... made in China!!
- Agreed, it just makes sense. But as previous folks commented, maybe the waters have changed. Time will tell!
08-16-2014, 11:25 AM
#216
Instructor
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Waltham, MA
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I finally got around to recording some video (Go Pro mounted to bumper) of the Sharkwerks Exhaust installed on my 991 Turbo S Cab. I was driving around in normal street traffic. I took 6 all together, with no sport/sport/sport+. The I did another with the Go Pro secured to the clamshell. Here are the ones of the camera mounted on the bumper near the exhaust tip. I did not use the paddle shifters for regular or sport.
Sport On
Sport +
Sport On
Sport +
08-16-2014, 02:01 PM
#217
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In a van down by the Ottawa River ...
Posts: 4,132
Received 460 Likes
on
257 Posts
Cool!
But this sounds like a 3 cylinder engine at low rpm....
Any video with camera mounted in the center between the tail pipes?
With unconnected X-pipes it literally is a 3 cylinder engine at each tail pipe!
But this sounds like a 3 cylinder engine at low rpm....
Any video with camera mounted in the center between the tail pipes?
With unconnected X-pipes it literally is a 3 cylinder engine at each tail pipe!
Last edited by NVRANUF; 08-17-2014 at 11:03 AM.
08-16-2014, 09:45 PM
#218
So you bought the FS JWS (aka the "John Wayne Special") or, the one with the cats? It's ok you can tell us....no need for secrets here gunner.owch!!! Something isn't right there Kev! It sounds truly awful, like an old diesel truck. I would recommend an immediate re take! Also add some decent RPMs and WOT too if you don't mind.
08-16-2014, 09:50 PM
#219
Instructor
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Waltham, MA
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So you bought the FS JWS (aka the "John Wayne Special") or, the one with the cats? It's ok you can tell us....no need for secrets here gunner. ' owch!!! Something isn't right there Kev! It sounds truly awful, like an old diesel truck. I would recommend an immediate re take! Also add some decent RPMs and WOT too if you don't mind.
08-16-2014, 09:55 PM
#220
I actually sounds pretty good. I think having it it next to one tip is making it sound weird at idle. It doesn't sound like that in person. The ones I have have recorded when the camera is mounted on top of the rear is much better. I haven't had a chance to convert this files yet. I really do like the exhaust.
08-17-2014, 03:47 PM
#221
Has anyone had experience with the AWE 991 turbo exhaust?
To me the EP exhaust note is a bit too deep - you can't really hear the flat-6 (with all its harmonics) through the exhaust like on a N/A 991. Admittedly this is purely based on their Youtube video where revs never go above 3500rpm, unless someone could point me in the direction of a better video which records the full range of engine speed?
It's so difficult to get a feel for how these systems sound without hearing them in person...
To me the EP exhaust note is a bit too deep - you can't really hear the flat-6 (with all its harmonics) through the exhaust like on a N/A 991. Admittedly this is purely based on their Youtube video where revs never go above 3500rpm, unless someone could point me in the direction of a better video which records the full range of engine speed?
It's so difficult to get a feel for how these systems sound without hearing them in person...
08-17-2014, 08:41 PM
#223
Intermediate
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My GMG exhaust system is awesome. Throaty but civil at idle in normal mode. In sport mode lots of burbles when down shifting. It screams at WOT. Craftsmanship and fit is Perfect! Thanks Jerry@gmgracing.com for the great service and support.
08-17-2014, 10:22 PM
#224
Has anyone had experience with the AWE 991 turbo exhaust? Youtube video
To me the EP exhaust note is a bit too deep - you can't really hear the flat-6 (with all its harmonics) through the exhaust like on a N/A 991. Admittedly this is purely based on their Youtube video where revs never go above 3500rpm, unless someone could point me in the direction of a better video which records the full range of engine speed?
It's so difficult to get a feel for how these systems sound without hearing them in person...
To me the EP exhaust note is a bit too deep - you can't really hear the flat-6 (with all its harmonics) through the exhaust like on a N/A 991. Admittedly this is purely based on their Youtube video where revs never go above 3500rpm, unless someone could point me in the direction of a better video which records the full range of engine speed?
It's so difficult to get a feel for how these systems sound without hearing them in person...
I would agree youtube clips are not 100% reliable and the sound can vary depending on mic/type/position etc so it becomes virtually impossible to make a concrete conclusion. Always best to do a personal audition where possible.
Re the EP fwiw I can't say I've found it too deep at all actually. As a user my description would be; it sounds like an amplified version of the stock system from inside under throttle and at wot and from outside like an up-scaled 991S PSE with a heck of a lot of turbo whistle. Dealer and techs said much the same. I will say from out side it has some bark when you get up it that's for certain. In fact I would say the exterior volumes are probably much along the same vane as the AWE and GMG systems from what I've heard so far in their clips.
Agree. AWE is made and developed in USA from what I see and doesn't use any Chinese mass produced components so that is a good start.
Re the EP clip: only one I've seen so far is the one posted up on 6...and there is no WOT going on in that.
I will say though thankfully I've ever experienced any shot gun blasting going on with my EP at any time and that to me is a big plus.
My GMG exhaust system is awesome. Throaty but civil at idle in normal mode. In sport mode lots of burbles when down shifting. It screams at WOT. Craftsmanship and fit is Perfect! Thanks Jerry@gmgracing.com for the great service and support.
