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-   -   Launch customer who is not pleased... (https://rennlist.com/forums/991-turbo/774781-launch-customer-who-is-not-pleased.html)

Rams86 09-04-2013 12:54 PM

Launch customer who is not pleased...
 
1 Attachment(s)
I have speced a new TTS and was told the order needed to finalized by 7/24 for a 9/06 build and 12/15 delivery. I wasn't thriilled about having to spec the car without seeing it or being able to see some of the new color options in person but ok fine, I get it.

One of the things I wasnt thrilled about were the wheel options and I have never liked CL's. I'm frustrated to see they now are now adding thinks to the configurator like new 5-lug wheel options and back-up cameras.

This adding of options after my build is locked is really frustrating to me! I thought the center stack buttons on the TTS looked rather cheap as there were 10 buttons but 5 of them are blank which seems stupid for a supposedly top-of-line car. If these spaces now get filled with options I idint have the chance to consider, I will be really irritated. Porsche can be so frustrating in how they launch cars....Attachment 758899

darth g-f 09-04-2013 01:14 PM

It sucks. But all companies do that. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

Imagine Lotus Exige owners' face when they learned that Lotus was gonna import the Exige S to the US after denying it for a year? Exige value plummeted, no one wanted them anymore. Then they launched the S240 and then the S260.... Way to piss people off.

Long story short, don't buy a car in its first year is relevant not only for reliability reasons, but for options too. I'm sure your car will be great nonetheless. On the bright side, you'll be one of the first to own one in the US.

aamersa 09-04-2013 05:43 PM

This no big deal. Imagine how upset those customers were who after receiving their brand new 997 TT found that the TTS had just been launched. At least a direct choice between TT and TTS was offered this time. Not having all the options available is a compromise that any early adopter needs to live with.

keithos27 09-05-2013 09:00 AM

Typical Porsche... there will be new options that roll out from time to time from now until end of the 991 production. If you want the ultimate-specced p-car you have to wait to get the last one out of the factory before the new body comes out. And then 2 months later you'll have the old car on the block. It's a way to keep demand up throughout the lifecycle of the car.

Congratulations on your order! From what I heard some dealers are able to retrofit the backup camera so if that is something you really want look into it.

Regrading the blanks... I can't defend Porsche here. I think it's absolutely ridiculous as well. Oh well. :(

ajag 09-05-2013 10:05 AM

Btw, rear camera now available, I'm pondering whether to add it and risk a delay in production...ugh.

Tacet-Conundrum 09-05-2013 10:30 AM

One of the unfortunate attributes for early adopters, especially when it comes to Porsche.

Can you imagine working on the car for Porsche and you're part of the team that has to get the tooling and training and all the other headaches that come a long with working for a mostly Bespoke auto company?

We are lucky as Porsche Fanatics to order what we want ala carte for 90% of all auto makers generally only offer certain items through packages.

Can anyone tell me if the Ducktail can be ordered by itself yet and not apart of an entire aero kit for the regular Carreras?

Larry L 09-05-2013 10:44 AM


Originally Posted by darth g-f (Post 10735011)

Long story short, don't buy a car in its first year is relevant not only for reliability reasons, but for options too. I'm sure your car will be great nonetheless. On the bright side, you'll be one of the first to own one in the US.

Like the Miata frenzy when the car debuted in the Us. I dated a woman who fell for the "get in line" tactic and settled for the next car in line. She didnt like the color or the option package, but bought the car anyway.

FastLaneTurbo 09-05-2013 12:02 PM

Far more of a "Rip-Off" on Turbo pricing is the differential on Centerlock Wheel pricing. As a "track guy"
I do not want Centerlock Wheels (which require special tools and techniques) nor Ceramic Brakes (which
cost 10 times the price for Steel Rotors with little if any increase in longevity when tracked - Steel Rotors @ $500 each and Ceramic rotors at $5,000 each - $20,000 per set of 4 Ceramics versus $2,000 for Steel Rotors) If I want my Turbo S with 5 Lug wheels I pay the same price as the Centerlock wheels with no discount. If I order a Turbo (Non-S) I must pay $3,835 ADDITIONAL for Centerlocks, clearly a rip-off.
The Turbo S is likely to have similar lap-times and be as effective on the track as the GT-3.
Many of us use our Turbos for both Street and Track. Porsche needs to do what Nissan has done with the GT-R and offer a lower-priced "Track Edition" without Centerlock Wheels and Ceramic Brakes. I want the power of the Turbo S and am unwilling to order the lower-powered Turbo. Until they offer that, I, and I suspect many others like me, will simply not order either Turbo model.

carcommander 09-05-2013 02:02 PM

You want Porsche to decontent the car and make it cheaper? Nah. They will just slap on a few spoilers and some decals and make it MORE expensive. LOL. I bought a Turbo, not S, for just those reasons. I doubt you can feel 30hp on the street. It's just bragging rights. I did order the center locks because I like the look and I don't track my cars. I did not want the ceramics.

ajag 09-05-2013 03:09 PM


Originally Posted by FastLaneTurbo (Post 10737614)
Far more of a "Rip-Off" on Turbo pricing is the differential on Centerlock Wheel pricing. As a "track guy"
I do not want Centerlock Wheels (which require special tools and techniques) nor Ceramic Brakes (which
cost 10 times the price for Steel Rotors with little if any increase in longevity when tracked - Steel Rotors @ $500 each and Ceramic rotors at $5,000 each - $20,000 per set of 4 Ceramics versus $2,000 for Steel Rotors) If I want my Turbo S with 5 Lug wheels I pay the same price as the Centerlock wheels with no discount. If I order a Turbo (Non-S) I must pay $3,835 ADDITIONAL for Centerlocks, clearly a rip-off.
The Turbo S is likely to have similar lap-times and be as effective on the track as the GT-3.
Many of us use our Turbos for both Street and Track. Porsche needs to do what Nissan has done with the GT-R and offer a lower-priced "Track Edition" without Centerlock Wheels and Ceramic Brakes. I want the power of the Turbo S and am unwilling to order the lower-powered Turbo. Until they offer that, I, and I suspect many others like me, will simply not order either Turbo model.

Exactly why I am getting the TT, I don't want the ceramics or center locks, and the extra bit of hp/tq isn't going to matter 99.9% of the time. Honestly the only thing I wish I had was the black exhaust tips lol, though I'll probably just powdercoat mine.

aamersa 09-05-2013 05:32 PM

I agree with both of you that the turbo is a much better deal. In this case the S is for bragging rights mainly. And if ordering the base turbo for public road use only and no track use, it would also be a good idea to skip the pdcc and ceramic brakes.

Rennteam 09-13-2013 11:02 AM

OK, I won't argue about the Turbo being the better deal (I don't think so but anyway...) but regarding the options the thread starter mentioned:
1. The five lug Turbo rim was available practically since day one for the Turbo S, so no need to go for CL.
Not sure why your dealer didn't mention it.
2. Many confuse the 997 CL system with the BRANDNEW 991 GT3 and Turbo S CL system. Porsche has put a lot of development work into the new CL system and while you still need a special tool for CL, it requires much less force and everything is much more reliable (and safe) now. No need to worry about CL, unless you live somewhere in the desert, 1000 mls aways from the next repair shop.
3. The backup camera is rumored to be retrofittable for the Turbo S with parking sensors, it should be available through Tequipment at some point.

Yes, Porsche will add more options over time, like bucket seats (for the first time with heating!) but what are you expecting? I am happy I get my car early October and if you want to wait for more options, you can always delay your delivery.

ajag 09-13-2013 09:19 PM


Originally Posted by Rennteam (Post 10758142)
OK, I won't argue about the Turbo being the better deal (I don't think so but anyway...) but regarding the options the thread starter mentioned:
1. The five lug Turbo rim was available practically since day one for the Turbo S, so no need to go for CL.
Not sure why your dealer didn't mention it.
2. Many confuse the 997 CL system with the BRANDNEW 991 GT3 and Turbo S CL system. Porsche has put a lot of development work into the new CL system and while you still need a special tool for CL, it requires much less force and everything is much more reliable (and safe) now. No need to worry about CL, unless you live somewhere in the desert, 1000 mls aways from the next repair shop.
3. The backup camera is rumored to be retrofittable for the Turbo S with parking sensors, it should be available through Tequipment at some point.

Yes, Porsche will add more options over time, like bucket seats (for the first time with heating!) but what are you expecting? I am happy I get my car early October and if you want to wait for more options, you can always delay your delivery.

I'm sure the new CL system is more reliable/safe than gen1, but unless there are significant performance improvements with weight reduction, I don't see the point. More expensive, less wheel options, predominately for appearance? :confused:

I decided not to get the backup cam due to delays, it's nice to know it may be retrofittable (for 1k or more though I'm sure).

Rennteam 09-16-2013 10:32 AM

More expensive? Do you pay for the CL system on a Turbo S? ;)
Or does Porsche charge extra money for the two (non-CL, 5 lug) alternatives? ;)
Why CL? Well...good point. It looks better. (cannot find any better arguments...right now)

FastLaneTurbo 09-17-2013 01:24 PM

[QUOTE=Rennteam;10758142]OK, I won't argue about the Turbo being the better deal (I don't think so but anyway...) but regarding the options the thread starter mentioned:
1. The five lug Turbo rim was available practically since day one for the Turbo S, so no need to go for CL.
Not sure why your dealer didn't mention it.
2. Many confuse the 997 CL system with the BRANDNEW 991 GT3 and Turbo S CL system. Porsche has put a lot of development work into the new CL system and while you still need a special tool for CL, it requires much less force and everything is much more reliable (and safe) now. No need to worry about CL, unless you live somewhere in the desert, 1000 mls aways from the next repair shop.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Torque requirements on both 5 Lug wheels and Centerlocks have been raised (not lowered) on the 991.
I believe the 5 lug wheels have been raised to 118 Ft. Lbs (from 96 Ft. Lbs)
per lug, and the CL wheels to over 460 Ft. Lbs. These numbers have been changing lately and these may not be the latest numbers but 460 Ft. Lbs is
a whole bunch of Torque effectively pulling the axle apart longitudinally and is
lots more than the CL Torque required on my 993 TT Factory Race car -
and that one broke during a race at Road Atlanta sending me into the tire wall
with $50K damage.

Sulaiman 09-18-2013 01:01 AM


Originally Posted by Rennteam (Post 10764329)
More expensive? Do you pay for the CL system on a Turbo S? ;)
Or does Porsche charge extra money for the two (non-CL, 5 lug) alternatives? ;)
Why CL? Well...good point. It looks better. (cannot find any better arguments...right now)


it looks better /??????

IT LOOKS MUCH BETTER


let me put it this way .... good look, good designe vs UGLY Wheel

yes yes i said it the Turbo wheels looks so ugly and so audi

Rennteam 09-18-2013 06:43 AM

1 Attachment(s)
CL torque has been changed (lowered) significantly. The Turbo S wheel requires, to my knowledge, only 100 Nm (75 ft.lbs). See photo.

Anders 09-18-2013 08:33 AM

Torque spec is still 600nm. The 100nm on the bolt refers to the emergency procedure, torque to 100nm and then tighten the bolt until "stop" is where "100nm" was.

carcommander 09-18-2013 10:34 AM

I orderd center locks on my non S turbo because I like the look. Unless you are going to track the car, how many of you are going to do your own tire work? If you are not then who cares. If you are getting an S, I would not do my own tire work period. If you chip one of your rotors you are not going like the cost. Most tire changes on a turbo are going to be done by a pro.

FastLaneTurbo 09-18-2013 12:21 PM


Originally Posted by Rennteam (Post 10769225)
CL torque has been changed (lowered) significantly. The Turbo S wheel requires, to my knowledge, only 100 Nm (75 ft.lbs). See photo.

75 Ft. Lbs.!!!!??????
PCA would never permit any 911 to go on a racetrack with ANY wheel-holding
Bolt Torqued to only 75 Ft. Lbs - even a wheel held on with 5 Bolts where the total torque is 75 X 5 (375 Ft. Lbs) I respectfully suggest you check your CL Recommended Torque Values again with Porsche.:rtfm:

FastLaneTurbo 09-18-2013 12:54 PM


Originally Posted by carcommander (Post 10769478)
I orderd center locks on my non S turbo because I like the look. Unless you are going to track the car, how many of you are going to do your own tire work? If you are not then who cares. If you are getting an S, I would not do my own tire work period. If you chip one of your rotors you are not going like the cost. Most tire changes on a turbo are going to be done by a pro.

Carcommander, I agree with you that Centerlock wheels are "better looking" and
"Racier-Looking" than 5 Lug wheels, but IMHO "Function" trumps "Looks".
If you attend any HPDE event, you will notice that many of us DO track our Turbos and buy them just because they are such great dual-purpose (DD & Track) cars.

You are also correct that wheel removal can easily chip a Ceramic Rotor and
require a $5,000 replacement - which would ruin anyone's day.

I do not believe you are correct in assuming that any "Pro" that happened to be in range when needed to fix your flat tire, (even at a racetrack, tire facility, or repair shop) would automatically have the special tools, equipment and training to perform a wheel removal on Centerlock wheels precisely in accordance with Porsche procedures and be incapable of chipping one of your very expensive rotors.:thumbup:

keithos27 09-18-2013 04:28 PM

Are CLs really an issue when you need a flat tire to be fixed? I will not track my car... but am curious what is the procedure to get a flat fixed if I have CLs? Have to get my car towed to Porsche?

FastLaneTurbo 09-18-2013 07:31 PM

The Porsche uses high speed Z rated tires. It is illegal for a shop to insert a plug in a Z-Rated tire and most gas stations and tire shops know this and will not do this. Since Porsche does not come with spare tires, it must be towed to a facility which can replace the tire which requires removing a wheel. Often this will be a tire store or gas station, unless you are lucky enough for it to have happened close to a Porsche Dealer.
It is a safe bet that the tire store or gas station will not have the tools to remove Centerlock Wheels nor have a clue on the procedures to remove it safely avoiding dinging your ceramic rotors and retorque the CL wheel for you.

Rennteam 09-21-2013 11:28 AM


Originally Posted by Anders (Post 10769302)
Torque spec is still 600nm. The 100nm on the bolt refers to the emergency procedure, torque to 100nm and then tighten the bolt until "stop" is where "100nm" was.

Not sure I understand ("emergency procedure"). Do you have any Porsche literature regarding this?

Speaking of the need of special tools: If someone thinks that the risk of getting a flat tire is high, I would buy that special tool from Porsche (700 EUR last time I checked but maybe there is a new, cheaper, one or maybe they lowered the price tag?) and keep it in the car for any occasion.
I agree that handling CL and the PCCB brakes can be a challenge for smaller tire shops but I live in Germany and we have a Porsche dealership in a 60 kph radius everywhere, so not really a problem. Doesn't Porsche have some sort of driver assist system in case of repair emergencies in the US?

Anders 09-21-2013 12:16 PM


Originally Posted by Rennteam (Post 10776224)
Not sure I understand ("emergency procedure"). Do you have any Porsche literature regarding this?

If you for some reason need to install the wheel without the proper torque wrench for CL wheels you can use the so called emergency procedure using a regular torque wrench tightening the wheel to 100nm then use the position of the bolt relative to the wheel to tighten it more properly. You can drive the car like this but need to use a proper torque wrench asap.

This is all described in the owner's manual for 997 CL cars (haven't seen any owm for 991 CL cars yet) but the procedure is the same for the 991 cars. Just look it up in the workshop manual: WM 440519 Removing and installing wheel with central bolt.

carcommander 09-21-2013 02:18 PM

I keep a plug kit in all my cars. I ran a gas station in HS and have done it many times. Having 5 lug wheels out in the boon docks is not going to help you. They are not going to have a replacement tire. If it can be patched it can be plugged. I would then replace the tire ASAP. I would not run a patched or plugged tire for any longer than necessary.

Overdraft 09-21-2013 02:35 PM


Originally Posted by Rams86 (Post 10734947)
I have speced a new TTS and was told the order needed to finalized by 7/24 for a 9/06 build and 12/15 delivery. I wasn't thriilled about having to spec the car without seeing it or being able to see some of the new color options in person but ok fine, I get it.

One of the things I wasnt thrilled about were the wheel options and I have never liked CL's. I'm frustrated to see they now are now adding thinks to the configurator like new 5-lug wheel options and back-up cameras.

This adding of options after my build is locked is really frustrating to me! I thought the center stack buttons on the TTS looked rather cheap as there were 10 buttons but 5 of them are blank which seems stupid for a supposedly top-of-line car. If these spaces now get filled with options I idint have the chance to consider, I will be really irritated. Porsche can be so frustrating in how they launch cars....Attachment 758899

Talk to your dealer about him simply calling his list on your car coming - and you order one equipped as you want? There is supposed to be a captive market now (which I don't believe exists to the purported degree actually) but if there is, there will be a happy guy to get the launch car while you wait 4 months or so for yours equipped as you wish. It is always interesting as the "better order today I only have 4 cars and twenty deposit cheques' will now be "jeez...that is a pretty specific car you got there and......"

Rennteam 09-21-2013 02:39 PM


Originally Posted by Anders (Post 10776307)
If you for some reason need to install the wheel without the proper torque wrench for CL wheels you can use the so called emergency procedure using a regular torque wrench tightening the wheel to 100nm then use the position of the bolt relative to the wheel to tighten it more properly. You can drive the car like this but need to use a proper torque wrench asap.

This is all described in the owner's manual for 997 CL cars (haven't seen any owm for 991 CL cars yet) but the procedure is the same for the 991 cars. Just look it up in the workshop manual: WM 440519 Removing and installing wheel with central bolt.

Thanks, now I understand. Haven't found anything for the 991 GT3 or Turbo S yet, the related literature seems to be missing from my source and I do not have direct access to the Porsche system today.
I will know for sure in exactly two weeks, when I pick up my 991 Turbo S.

I am actually pretty sure they changed something, last time I talked about CL on the 991, I've been told there have been significant improvements regarding the tool and force your need to mount a rim but maybe I misunderstood it.

Rennteam 09-21-2013 02:41 PM


Originally Posted by carcommander (Post 10776506)
I keep a plug kit in all my cars. I ran a gas station in HS and have done it many times. Having 5 lug wheels out in the boon docks is not going to help you. They are not going to have a replacement tire. If it can be patched it can be plugged. I would then replace the tire ASAP. I would not run a patched or plugged tire for any longer than necessary.

Patching/plugging a tire is OK for emergency situations but you need to keep the speed down (50 mph max. speed is recommended) to be safe and I wouldn't go for longer distances with that tire. This should be fast enough to get you anywhere close to a Porsche dealer or high quality tire shop.

Anders 09-21-2013 07:09 PM


Originally Posted by Rennteam (Post 10776540)
Thanks, now I understand. Haven't found anything for the 991 GT3 or Turbo S yet, the related literature seems to be missing from my source and I do not have direct access to the Porsche system today.
I will know for sure in exactly two weeks, when I pick up my 991 Turbo S.

I am actually pretty sure they changed something, last time I talked about CL on the 991, I've been told there have been significant improvements regarding the tool and force your need to mount a rim but maybe I misunderstood it.

991 GT3 info is just starting to show up in PIWIS and the CL info is there.

They changed several things with the CL system but installation / removal is identical to the 997 cars.

carcommander 09-21-2013 07:47 PM


Originally Posted by Rennteam (Post 10776547)
Patching/plugging a tire is OK for emergency situations but you need to keep the speed down (50 mph max. speed is recommended) to be safe and I wouldn't go for longer distances with that tire. This should be fast enough to get you anywhere close to a Porsche dealer or high quality tire shop.

I have patched and plugged many tires myself. I have seen them last the life of the tire. As I stated above I would replace the tire ASAP. A plug can be installed in about 5 minutes.

FastLaneTurbo 09-22-2013 03:44 PM

I also carry a plug kit in my Porsches, and a collapsible spare if available - also tools, jack and compressor.
(Yes, I am paranoid - but have had many flat tires caused by both road and track hazards plus vandalism) Plug kit works with nails, vandals tacks and small punctures. But useless if tire is Cut.

carcommander 09-23-2013 10:09 AM

Yes, if the tire is cut you are on a tow truck. I factor in the lack of spare in which of my vehicles I take out of town. I bet 50 percent of drivers can't change a tire even if they have a spare.


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