shawsan

0-60 times are only part of the sports car equation but, for the Turbo, they always grab the headlines. And so, I thought I’d explore the question: are there good reasons to expect the 991 TTS to be faster than the 997 TTS in the 0-60 mph sprint?

Unless ‘ringers’ were used in testing the 997 TTS, the times recorded where phenomenal; 2.6 seconds by Road & Track, 2.7 by Car & Driver, 2.8 by Motor Trend. These times were considerably below official Porsche times of around 3.1 seconds. That Porsche has announced the 991 Turbo S will do 0-60 in 2.9 seconds doesn’t necessarily mean actual tests will yield a 2.5 second sprint as some have suggested. IOW, 2.9 seconds could be closer to what the 991 Turbo S can really accomplish IF performance reporting is now closer to actual figures than was the case for the 997 Turbo S.

The 997 Turbo S has exactly the same torque configuration as the 991 Turbo S – 516 ft/lbs of torque. And it weighs a tad less at 1585 Kg vs 1605 for the 991 TTS. Since it’s torque and weight that make for fast 0-60 times, the 997 Turbo S could be expected to perform close to the 991 TTS. The only important intervening variable I can think of that could favor the 991’s is slightly faster PDK shifting times. It’s also possible that unsprung weight could be less for the 991 as represented by the 991’s wheels and tire weight. This would reduce rolling weight to the 991’s advantage.

That the 991 Turbo S would outdo the 997 TS on the Ring by 6 seconds doesn’t surprise me because (i) the 991 has 30 more HP which plays more of a role at higher speeds, and (ii) the ‘turning’ rear wheels fight against the all-time turbo nemesis of understeer when entering tight corners, linked to oversteer if one jerks the wheel to correct for the understeer. IMHO that is the one, single most important difference between the 991 and 997 TS.
It’s all moot, of course. Hopefully a side-by-side sprint will be arranged by some testing group. Other insights/speculation much appreciated.

Carrera GT

I think you raise some interesting comparisons. While I found the 997 Turbo S an impressive machine, I couldn't say it was a compelling proposition.
Compared to the 991 GT3, I think the 991 Turbo and 991 Turbo S are both quite serious contenders as daily drivers capable of an exciting track day. That's where the 991 turbos might "crush" the 997.2 turbos.
Where the 991 falls flat on its face is the sticker shock. I just hate to think about resale value on those cars -- their price will fall as if pulled by the gravity of their curb weight.
If I were to contemplate a 991 Turbo (probably the S) as an all-rounder 911, I'd have to get a sweetheart of a lease product to purchase it and be assured of returning it without exposure to "you've got to be kidding" resale price.
As for jumping off the line, I dare say the PDK programmer can click on a computer somewhere to decide the exact profile of the 991 turbo over the quarter mile -- what time do they want for the first 60 foot speed? for the final 60 foot "trap" speed? ET? It's just a matter of parameters, not peak potential performance.
PDK will not be a "slightly" faster, I'm sure it will now be allowed to do things that Porsche would not have allowed in the first '09 cars for lack of real world experience. The ability of PDK to "gain" on upshifts is much more potent than anything the engine can bring to the table.
If there is disappointment in the 991 specs, I'd attribute that to the engine being much the same donk as the 997 ... if there's a "ceiling" on torque, it's been plastered in place by the same engineering and marketing decisions that arrived at those numbers in the 2009 cars.
Any time slip we see marketed by the factories these days, whether it's a quarter mile or a bit further through the green hell, it's just a notional, nominal "value proposition" and not much to do with what really happens.

Tony007

The 991 Turbo S has more torque, 553 ft/lb of torque with overboost.

ajag

I wouldn't expect it to be or feel appreciably faster in a straight line, but here's hoping the RWS improves handling as much as it "appears" to be on the 991 GT3. I'm expecting the other 991 chassis changes will make as much of a difference in the TT as it has in the regular carreras vs. the 997 counterparts...better ride, and turn-in.

Rennteam

I doubt that you are going to feel a difference of let's say 0.1-0.2 seconds from 0-60 mph.
The performance gap increases however at speeds over 100 mph and according to some infos I have, it is substantially higher at speeds over 125 mph (which of course won't help much in speed limited countries).
The most significant difference vs. the "old" 997 Turbo S is the steering feel and the handling. WOW...next generation PTM/AWD, the rear axle steering and the longer wheelbase make a HUGE difference. No more understeer too...hooray.

WaltB

One thing to also consider. Many 997 Turbo S's have a tune and exhaust putting them somewhere just north or 600HP. My understanding is that getting a tune for a 991 TTS will be extremely difficult if not impossible. If that holds true, a tuned 997 TTS with some suspension mods may actually be comparable in time and performance to a 991 TTS in stock form.

Believe me I have thought about this a bunch. Having to pay an extra $50K after trade in would get me what exactly in comparison to my tuned and B16s suspended 997 TTS?

Walt

DreamCarrera

Why would this be the case?

WaltB

I read a few places that the encryption will be much greater and that because of the interaction with rear wheels steering as well as other electronics that it was very unlikely. Too many variables.

I guess we shall see if that hold up true or not.

Walt

shawsan

Interesting point Walt. We know Porsche doesn't want to see ECU remapping and doing so can invalidate that part of the warranty relating to the engine and drive train. Some do it anyway, some problems have cropt up, especially I believe with the clutch/trans, requiring complete replacement of the unit. With even more electronics coming into play with the rear wheel steering and its possible sensitivity to increases in torque -- beyond stock -- the techies at Porsche would probably be wise to go 'on the attack' and just block ECU mods, or cancel or dilute their effects out somehow -- such as electronics that control accepted torque level by the transmission.

If this were true, then, as you said, even some modest tweaking on the 997 TS as well as some modestly aggressive suspension changes (bushings, sway bars, lowered, upgraded tie rods), may keep the 997 TS proudly in the game. I'm in the same boat as you, impressed by the 991 TS, but reluctant to fork out $50K more than what I'd get for my 997TS and really reluctant to experience a $30-40K depreciation in the first 18 months of 991 TS ownership.

96redLT4

I bet they will be very close...

DreamCarrera

Interesting, I have not read this. Thanks for the explanation.

kosmo

any official Ring times?

darth g-f

I don't believe for a second that the new ECU will hold up the tuners from craking the code more than a few months. How many times have I read that the new XYZ brand's new ECU to be un-alterable?

Ultimately the new 991turbo is not any faster than a tuned 997tt that is not any faster than a tuned 996tt or tuned 993tt. The thing with the n/a cars like the Carrera and Gt3, the power output is very difficult to increase significantly. So every new gen of Carrera/GT3 is faster than the previous one and that is usually enough to sell a lot of them.

With the Turbo, the way these cars are built, it is so easy to crank the power to insane levels that it makes no sense to change to the new model based on power alone. So you need something more. I don't think this new 991tt/tts has much more to offer than a 997tts. Rear wheel steering, maybe... Idk.

shawsan

This is the first, exclusive test I've seen of the 991 Turbo S, reporting a 0-100km time of 2.9 seconds, corresponding to about 2.8 seconds for 0-60mph. If the 0-60 times reported for the 997 TTS by C&D, Road and Track and Motor Trend are correct then, on average, they imply a 0-60 time of slightly less than 2.8 seconds. This suggests that acceleration of the two turbo S cars is about the same up to 60 mph.

http://www.dragtimes.ru/en/blogs/view/49

Love_Tacos_911

Having been in the computer industry; if it can be programmed, it can be cracked. It just may take them a bit longer and cost a few more bucks for the level of programmer they bring in.