Karl277PD

2018/2019 GT3/GT2 RS light weight battery. Which is best? Surprised the car doesn't come with a lithium battery or have option for one. Wonder why?

pepinozaur

I did Liteblox, great battery, but pricey... you can buy also their custom battery plate for 991s..
Nice thing it comes with iphone app and can be turned off over winter, real time health status monitoring, etc
Total weight loss is 20,2KG (19,1kg the battery and 1,1kg the plate) this is the bigger size battery for DD, not the race version (even lighter, and also cheaper)
https://en.liteblox.de/lightweight-b...-2-gt3-gt2-rs/

I know Porsche oem option for lithium battery is 3000euros, at least for EU should be available as option

Karl277PD

Thanks. That is a super light weight battery. Was looking at Antigravity at SEMA show and they are almost twice the weight. https://shop.antigravitybatteries.co...omotive/rs-30/

GT3ZZZ

That looks like a great product! Thank you

Jean

Liteblox

GT3ZZZ

Did your car need programming when you installed the Liteblox battery? Their website seems to indicate that a visit to the dealer is necessary to initialise it etc.

Jean

This is standard Porsche procedure that you don't need in most overwhelming number of cases.

Need4S

Looks great but yes, very pricey. How about an Antigravity battery? Currently sold out, but that's the one I'd get if I were to go that route. You'll probably want their custom mount, too.

https://shop.antigravitybatteries.co...omotive/rs-30/

https://shop.antigravitybatteries.co...rs30-tray-kit/

MaxLTV

But it's also almost twice the capacity (30Ah vs. 17.5Ah in lightblox). Antigravity of the same capacity is comparable.

Antigravity

Scott from Antigravity here. I'll answer some questions below. But first I wanted to say we have a new Battery line coming. I didn't want to put it out there this early as we are trying to finish our production and get marketing Materials ready, but it is assumed that some should arrive by the end of January. We are coming out with OEM sized Lithium Batteries. Meaning the exact sizes that fit in your Cars.... No need for a Tray, or special installation. We will start with the H5/Group 47, H6/Group48, H7/Group49, which covers most all European Performance Cars (Porsche, BMW, Lambo, Ferrari, Aston Martin etc), and quite a few American Cars also. We will also offer them in different Amp Hour Capacities to allow for lighter weights or more capacity depending on the application of the user. For example we will have the H6 in 25Ah, 30Ah and 40Ah models. But the ULTRA-COOL thing is these batteries will also have a WIRELESS KEY FOB REMOTE to access the built-in Jump-Starting feature which we call the RE-START feature. This means not only will you never be stranded by the battery going dead, but you won't even have to open the hood to access the battery to engage the RE-START feature. Just press the button on the Keyfob... start the car and drive away. It will also eliminate having to go to the fuse panel if your battery over-discharges and you can't open the Frunk. Just press the RE-START Keyfob and energize your system and you can open the frunk. Anyway as this progresses I'll lbe posting in some of the forums.


To answer Karl's Questions,

I think the Liteblox battery is a pretty cool battery, and I'm not here to bash them at all. But I'll point out some facts.

The weight differences between a Liteblox and Antigravity Battery aren't because Liteblox makes a "lighter battery". The weight difference is due to how much Lithium Battery you actually get inside the battery itself. As Max LTV mentioned our RS-30 has about twice the actual Amp Hour Capacity. Which also means twice the Power of the Liteblox Battery you mention. We put a bigger battery in the RS-30 therefore it weighs more.. but still only 11.5 lbs . We have other models that are in the same Amp Hour configuration as the Liteblox and they weigh roughly the same as the Liteblox (our ATX-30), But keep in mind, with 2x the Amp Hours and Power means in very cold weather the RS-30 would also outperform the Liteblox dramatically due to having almost twice the overhead in power. Also note that having two times the Amp Hours would mean that you could store your car for TWICE as long before the battery is drained. So these are massive differences between the two models we are talking about. And while the Liteblox is Carbon Fiber which looks cool, and has the Bluetooth set-up. it is also roughly $1950 dollars compared to the RS-30 which is $700 dollars. So the Liteblox is $1100.00 dollars MORE than the Antigravity RS-30, yet the RS-30 gives you double the performance. So those are some of the key comparison factors, I wanted to make sure that was clarified because it is a massive difference.

If anyone is looking for the best Lithium Battery for their car... it is NOT about weight only. You want to consider your USE. Are you Street only, are you Street and Track/Performance, or are you full Race? Do you drive the Car often or does it sit for a while ( 1 month and more) between driving? These questions are what will ultimately determine what you want from your lithium battery. For example if it's a daily driver and you just want to lose a lot of weight but still have the ability to not put the car on a charger for a month or two then you can want to go with about 30 amp hours minimum. If you're more of a street performance guy and who does some track days and you want to drop even a bit more weight then you can go into the 20 to 25 amp hour range and get a bit more weight savings, but then you may need to put the battery on a maintainer if you're not driving within two weeks or so. But if you're one of those people who doesn't mind putting the battery on the maintainer and monitoring your vehicle more often then you can get away with these smaller 15 to 20 amp hour batteries. And if your a full race person a 7 to 10 amp hour Lithium may also work fine , but you would want to watch for over-discharge on these really small batteries. While they will easily start the Cars, they can be damaged easily by over-discharge. You would also want to make sure your Battery has a full Battery Management system with protections built in. So do a little research and compare what is out there. Also, while the Bluetooth of the Liteblox seems like a cool feature... I say be WARY of this. Not because we are jealous, or wish we had it... but rather, because I am thinking if their Anti-Theft system shuts down the battery and you DON"T have your phone with you to turn it on again what do you do? Or perhaps the battery gets over-discharged completely.... then the Bluetooth has no power so how do you turn on the battery again? And what if the Bluetooth software just crashes or locks up... does that mean you can't turn on the battery again? These are things as a Battery designer that would sort of scare me personally. So it's very cool technology... but has it been vetted long term and in emergency situations?

Anyway ultimately you want to choose a battery that's right for your application, to determine what's best for you. And within that you will have your personal preferences that will also determine what you want to go with. Then look at the overall value proposition, what do you get for your money, is the product seasoned and the brand have a solid reputation and can you contact the company easily, and what is the warranty?

Randyc151

I use a Braille Lithium battery, and even after an accidental discharge and miraculous recovery, I will get that AntiGravity battery described above next time. The key point is the weight savings is dramatic and noticeable on track. I went with the Braille especially due to the size - it didn't need any adapter or tray or anything. Second, Braille is the leader in the pro racing industry, so I had confidence in it. Now that I know more, I'd go with AntiGravity next.

The reason this is not a standard feature in the Porsche options is that these batteries do not do well at all in very cold temperatures. BMW has started using them as standard in some M models, so I expect that the technology is improving to the point they are comfortable with it. Scott can probably add more about that. I did take my car to the dealer after I installed the Braille, and they reprogrammed the car to tell the computers that the Porsche Lithium battery was installed, and it now uses much less power when parked, and will last much longer without needing a trickle charge. It did make a difference in discharge while parked, so I suggest you do take it in for programming.

Here's my thread on this process: https://rennlist.com/forums/991-turb...y-install.html

I just swapped this battery over to my GT2 RS and will take it over to the dealer for programming in the next week or two, but it also is kept in a climate controlled garage. Good luck!

Jean

First of all welcome Antigravity to the forum as a sponsor, we like every company bringing us technology that makes our cars lighter or faster, so we wish you good luck

Your posts are very informative, yet too long so forgive me if I am mentioning something you already did I am not in this field, but researched a lot before buying, given the use I put on my car, which is part street car with all the original electronics and electrical options, part race mule and also spends considerable amount of time parked. I do not have the cold weather which is to my advantage, but I do use the AC 12 months a year, even on the track (yes). But it is important to Rennlisters to make informed decisions and have as much info as possible between offered options. So some info I know of, and maybe questions you would like to answer..

- First of all your price levels are excellent, for someone looking to reduce weight economically it is a no brainer, regardless of which battery is better or worse in the long run.
- I always have a hard time understanding massive price differences between suppliers and manufacturers of parts in our global economy, especially when some successful companies can stay in business while selling at 2-3x the price of competitors and keep gaining ground. So some questions about Antigravity, are the cells used of the same quality, is the product manufactured in China and assembled in the US, are the specs the same etc..
- For US residents, a well established local supplier is definitely a plus, service, shipping, after sales support etc.. For non US residents, we tend to look sometimes at European/German manufacturers which is closer to home, thats another point of difference for sure, but most of us end up buying 90% of our needs from US tuners and suppliers given the great service we get.
- Liteblox are engineered and manufactured in Germany ,ISO 9001 and have been in business since 2014 working with customers who use their cars as DD, track rats or pure competition, they have a very good reputation.
- Liteblox are equipped with an in house developed BMS, over/under voltage, over/under temperature, over current, short protection etc.. that can be modified via smartphone. Everyone has a smartphone, and once you set it up you don't need to change it.
- Your communication says your batteries have a max charge rate of 20Amps, the Porsche intelligent management system recuperates up to 60Amps in deceleration, the lightweight Liteblox LB26XX is capable of 70 continuous Amps.. Would this create a problem in the long run due to overstrain of your cells, overheating and reduced lifecycle?
- They use premium cell technology Gen 3, (A123 ANR26650M1B for more info) and open about it, are these similar cells to what you use?
- They are not the typical marketing driven company, but rather an R&D/engineering lab and many companies use their in-house labs for development and testing as well.
- These batteries work perfectly after 4 weeks with the 991 parked and no charging.

I am definitely not an expert in this, just as a user it would be interesting to know differences, so that we also understand the value proposition between all the different brands of lightweight batteries, then to each his/her own choosing the best price/quality/weight balance.

I ran into very annoying problems with my car because my original battery had the current drop below 11.9V and never realized it until I went to the dealer, these cars seem to be very sensitive to this.

Jean

Antigravity

Hey Jean, all good questions..... But are you going to read my answers? You said you didn't read my post above because it was long.... So if you asking me questions and want information you gotta read what I say long or not. I'm about getting info out and yes a bit long winded, but I answer the question fully so people don't have so many follow ups.

- First of all your price levels are excellent, for someone looking to reduce weight economically it is a no brainer, regardless of which battery is better or worse in the long run.

So you understand our Starter Batteries are not a lower price because I'm selling a cheaper product, they are lower than others for the most part because; 1) Some companies are charging WAY to much for what is actually inside. meaning they are inflating the costs to a high degree due to the niche nature of the product. 2) They really don't sell alot of product so the pricing for the components is quite high for them due to not ordering a higher number of components. 3) We sell a lot of other Lithium product like our MICRO-START mini Jump STarters... so we know alot of the Cell and component manufacturers well and buy in volume. Also if you are building in USA and importing your cells that can be more expensive. We do both... but for the Auto Batteries, it is in China. But that is not a bad thing. They are the ony country really supplying cells now.


- ...So some questions about Antigravity, are the cells used of the same quality, is the product manufactured in China and assembled in the US, are the specs the same etc.

As far as the cells. We used to use A123 cells. I stopped doing that in 2013, and yes I understand they have made some upgrades. But the fact is that the A123 cell was sensitive to over-discharge, and overcharge, and we tested other cell packs that out-performed the A123 26650M1 in the Pulse Discharge and Constant Current capabilities and that were more resilient to abuse so we bailed on those cells. A123 went bankrupt and is now owned by a Chinese Company, and that is NOT a bad thing. But overall it's just an decent cell that ANYONE can buy. Our cells have a higher C-Rate (higher current discharge per Ah). The A123 Cell our Cells are also Made in China. But there are much bigger battery cell manufacturers than A123, and they do it better than A123. A123 is more readily available throughout the world, just Google "A123 cells" and you can buy some yourself from tons of places.


- Liteblox are engineered and manufactured in Germany ,ISO 9001 and have been in business since 2014
Weve been in business since 2010. We started by building all the batteries ourselves in the USA, and still make 4 of the models in the USA. But we started designing some in depth products and could only do it in China to have a reasonably priced product. Our factory is also ISO 9001 but to clarify ISO 9001 is not a" product" certification but a "management" certification. While something to look at as valuable, it is not indicative of the quality of a product actually. Sounds good but won't matter much in determining Starter Battery overall quality (as we learned about 7 years ago). But that is not saying a Liteblox is bad or anything. Just saying ISO9001 doesn't mean much in reality.

Liteblox is working with customers who use their cars as DD, track rats or pure competition, they have a very good reputation.
That is sissy stuff...any battery can handle a smooth road . We come from the off-road side of things. The Truck is the 2018 Lucas Oil Lites Champion Ryan Beat, the MX'er who is going to land on the Moon is Eli Tomac with Monster Energy Kawasaki. the #1 rider in the WORLD in MX/SX. So this is where Braille and Liteblox and most others won't be found. Your battery better be built beyond tough to handle this. So that is an 800 Horsepower V8 in the Trophy Truck. Even though the suspension is great, it does nothing but get massive slams every second on the track with vibration levels and impacts that have to be seen in real life to understand. So we make batteries from 12 ounces up to 15lbs that are used for the toughest Motorsports in tnhe world. WE cover it all.... and have a great reputation for it. So we have the credibility




- Liteblox are equipped with an in house developed BMS, over/under voltage, over/under temperature, over current, short protection etc.. that can be modified via smartphone. Everyone has a smartphone, and once you set it up you don't need to change it.
We also have all those protections, but I'm not onboard with Bluetooth thing, I think it opens up a potential for a big problem. I think its a bit too much to put bluetooth into a battery that can actually turn off the battery. My opinion is this.... What if the battery goes completely dead and the blue tooth can't be energized either but it requires your PHONE to turn it back on. Or say you accidentally trigger the Anti-theft feature of Liteblox and it shuts the car off, but you don't have your cell phone with you, or your phone battery is dead so you are stuck?. Does that mean you can't start the car because its immobilized and your phone went dead, so you can't even access the App? What if there is a bug or crash in the bluetooth software or your App get corrupted? Are you left with a Battery that won't awaken if you shut it off. It's cool sounding and if it works it neat... but if it fails it has a potential to be a massive problem.

We actually have an external Bluetooth Device and App coming out late this month.. but it is NOT "IN" the battery itself. It is just a monitoring device anyone can put on a Lead or Lithium Battery. But it tracks your voltage, shows your starting performance and checks your charging system. Different ways to skin a cat.

- Your communication says your batteries have a max charge rate of 20Amps, the Porsche intelligent management system recuperates up to 60Amps in deceleration, the lightweight Liteblox LB26XX is capable of 70 continuous Amps.. Would this create a problem in the long run due to overstrain of your cells, overheating and reduced lifecycle?
That number for Max Charge rate is a conservative stated number that will keep people from sticking an in- appropriate external chargers on the battery. Also, so you better understand... the SMALLER the Lithium battery the LESS recharge Amperage it can handle. So a Liteblox is almost HALF the capacity of the RS-30 so in reality the Liteblox could only handle HALF the charging rate of our RS-30 would handle. It is based on the C-Rate for charging. Being conservative you would normally say "charge a Lithium battery at 1C" ... 1amp per Ah of the battery. So on the Liteblox it woud be about 17Amp Max charge rate. On our it would be 30Amp Max charge rate. So our could handle more Amps by almost half when using that standard. But you can actually do it more than 1C charge rate..... Anyway, the cars charging system is not anything to worry about for either of our batteries and anything a 17Ah battery could handl the RS-30 would beat it by a long shot.

- They use premium cell technology Gen 3, (A123 ANR26650M1B for more info) and open about it, are these similar cells to what you use?
I explained about A123 above. From testing ours are better. We also do alot more Lithium Batteries and Products that most any competitor. Keep in mind we have and were arguably the first to bring the mini Jump Starter to market. Our MICRO-START mini jump starter came out in 2013...we sold almost 1 million of them to date. We make 18 sizes and models of Starter Lithium Batteries from 12 Ounces to 15 lbs for Motorcycles, Powersport, and Automotive. So we know what works the best and have tested alot of different cells from many different companies.

- They are not the typical marketing driven company, but rather an R&D/engineering lab and many companies use their in-house labs for development and testing as well.

You better look a bit closer there... They are ABSOLUTELY a marketing company for sure, and I like the way way they do it! There's nothing wrong with being passionate about and trying to sell your product. If you are paying $2000 dollars for a battery you better have some good marketing and features to get that sale. We also market as best we can, but ours is a bit more toward trying to show we do alot of everything and are not so niche, and have a reasonable prices point . We want to bring Lithium more to the masses yet still be know as having the best product. So that our angle. I want EVERYBODY to be using it sooner than later. I'm not so interested in doing Carbon Fiber or Bluetooth at this time. I don't find i Doing the Carbon Fiber. Belive me its marketing and very good. And we do it our way also. So this is about marketing for sure and don't confuse that.

- These batteries work perfectly after 4 weeks with the 991 parked and no charging.
With the RS-30 we have cars sitting 2 months.... you can't compare a 17Ah battery to a 30Ah battery in anyway in terms of RESERVE capacity. The actual length of time a car will sit depends on any aftermarket accessories, or other items that may dramatically increase the parasitic draw on the battery. Additionally the year of the car will also effect this since the newer models usually have a much better battery management system that shuts down the cars electronics earlier and drops the parasitic draw down significantly. But again a 17Ah battery compared to a 30Ah battery isn't even comparable. Think of it like this. I give you 17 eggs , and I get 30 eggs. We each eat an egg each morning, and we will DIE if we don't eat that egg. Whos going to live longer. You with 17 eggs or me with 30 eggs. Your dead way before me. You got super flashy Easter eggs, and that is nice. I got a regular egg with some cool stripes. but saved $1100 dollar and got more eggs and lived longer. So I personally think my eggs were better than yours. But eggs are in the eyes of the beholder, so maybe a more basic egg isn't your style.

It all good though, we all have a few good options for what you want.

Adianaty

@Antigravity Would you please consider a group buy for your new cell specifically for the enthusiasts on Rennlist? I would sign up immediately for it. Thanks for considering!

swoobie

Scott - really appreciate the time you spent in the post above to educate us. I've been on the fence about this, but will likely move to Lithium soon, and after your post Anti-Gravity is at the top of my list.