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What is the best lithium battery to get for a GT3/GT2 RS?

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What is the best lithium battery to get for a GT3/GT2 RS?

 
Old 02-18-2019, 07:33 PM
  #46  
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Nanook - what is your take on running our Dashcams and Antilaser systems with these lower Ah batteries? Should we be worried about parasitic drain?
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Old 02-18-2019, 07:43 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
This should have the fittings actually for multiple H series sizes as most of the other modern Porsche's do so while you could go with the H7 you should still even be able to to with the H6 as well. You should be able to see the option cleat locations for mounting when you remove the existing and yes, we would definitely agree the 40Ah option would be the way to go as well.
Is there any electrical or capacity difference between your H6 and your soon to be H7, if both are 40Ah? Is it just the case size or are there more plates or whatever inside?
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Old 02-18-2019, 07:44 PM
  #48  
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Good question...I think a supplemental power source such as a Power Magic module would be a good idea for the dashcam.. although I see no issues with detectors or jammers since they operate while the car is running and draw very little current,,
I have a Power Magic unit (I think there is a newer unit with a different name now) but never installed it in my now gone '14 and always left it on while the car was parked with no issues....when my new '19 arrives it will immediately get a new antilaser system, front and rear Blackvue cameras and this 40a lithium battery ( along with other goodies already in hand) and I really don't foresee any potential power issues.....I say with with a caveat that when I had and will install these devices I had power kill switches installed using the unused console buttons allowing me to power all devices off for longer term parking...not to mention very handy to immediate kill the ALP in a targeted situation.
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:32 PM
  #49  
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Now a few things concern me about your warranty:
1) There are a lot of exclusions. I understand an exclusion for physical damage - that makes sense. But I would have thought your BMS would render most of the other exclusions unnecessary. Surely a BMS would shut down charging if it is getting too much voltage or being overcharged for instance? Likewise you have warranty exclusions for over discharge of the battery and over discharge due to parasitic drains. Isn't the value proposition of your battery that this cannot happen as the BMS prevents overdischarge? So why is it an exclusion in the warranty? This exclusion implies the BMS doesn't function as claimed!
2) One of your exclusions is that you won't honor the warranty if the vehicle's charging system over charges the battery. However you also say you have deliberately not coded your own Porsche for the lithium battery you installed which means you are running this risk. When you posted that you seem to be contradicting your own warranty. I would have thought you should be mandating the update of the software to ensure the vehicles voltage regulator is Lithium-safe IF you are later going to use this to deny a warranty claim. Without coding the vehicles voltage regulator is set for an AGM lead acid battery. So is Antigravity's position that a dead battery that was overcharged by the vehicle's regulator would not be covered under warranty if the owner had not had the dealer code his car for lithium prior to installation?
3) You limit the warranty replacements to just one over the 5 year period. I don't understand why you would have such a limit if you stand behind your product and you also have stringent limitations within your warranty to exclude any claim that could even vaguely be caused by user behavior.

Please can you explain? I'm hoping you will say you have a new automotive battery warranty policy to reflect the in built protections of your new automotive battery and that the one on your website that I linked above is out of date.
Ok it is scott again, wanted to finish answering your questions about our Warranty. Chad is answer the other questions while I'm out.

While your points are logical to you... they are not accurately reflecting what a business must do to protect itself from the infrequent but actual Customer Complaints or Warranty issues that accompany using something like a battery. There are many variables within a system that has a battery. Such as User Maintenance, additional electronics added to a system that can create a much higher level of parasitic draw, use in applications outside what we recommend them for. So we have encountered those issues and several more. After we sell a battery we do NOT know how it is maintained, if the user has other electronics on the car that create a drain so heavy that the Car drains the battery within a week or two. So we have to cover ourselves for the Customer that will eventually blame all the woes on the battery. And it does happen. They will not take responsibility for adding extra accessories to the car that make the battery drain faster. They will not accept responsibility for using a Lead/Acid Charger even if they do. We will also be blamed for the car not starting even though they have a Camera, Theft alarm , a big stereo wired into the car wrong. They will defeat the systems on our batteries by manipulating them. And if that aftermarket accessory is draining the hell out of the battery, they won't blame it... they will blame the battery for not having and infinite supply of power. So again this is RARE... but these are the facts. So we have to put something into place to cover this.

1) There are a lot of exclusions. I understand an exclusion for physical damage - that makes sense. But I would have thought your BMS would render most of the other exclusions unnecessary. Surely a BMS would shut down charging if it is getting too much voltage or being overcharged for instance? Likewise you have warranty exclusions for over discharge of the battery and over discharge due to parasitic drains. Isn't the value proposition of your battery that this cannot happen as the BMS prevents overdischarge? So why is it an exclusion in the warranty? This exclusion implies the BMS doesn't function as claimed!
You wrote at the end of the paragraph above " this exclusion implies the BMS doesn't function as claimed".... NO, YOU imply this, we are not implying any such thing. But I can understand how you came to that conclusion. Here are a couple examples why we put this..
.
1- You have a car and that alternator is broken, it is spiking 18v to the battery.... after a certain amount of time our battery fails because it has been subjected to 18v from this faulty problem on YOUR CAR. Nothing to do with our Battery or its quality. It is your vehicles faulty system. So are we responsible for the faulty system in your Car? Am I supposed to be building a product that allows YOUR faulty system to continue to be faulty and my product is then supposed to cure this and offer long term protection against this? The over-charge feature was NOT meant to fix a faulty system, but provide a level of short term spikes in over-charge.

2-You keep putting our battery on a Lead/Acid Charger... though our User's Manual and Warnings on the Battery state NOT to do this... but you think you don't have to adhere to our maintenance procedures and after months on this lead/acid charger the battery finally fails. So are we supposed to develop a product that compensates for your lack of proper maintenance, and responsibility to use the proper charger as we suggested and require?

3- Let say you like cranking the Stereo at your local Cars and Coffee in your WRX, and blasting your favorite Kanye West... well you drain our battery down until is shuts off when Kanye is grooving really hard. So you get pissed because you drained the battery... but you know you can press the RE-START button and get another few minutes of play times.... so you do that.... then the battery cuts off again.... so you press the RE-START button again... then again.to hear a few more bits of your song. We'll your effective ruining our system and massively over-discharging and ruining the battery. Even though our Warranty clearly states the RE-START is and EMERGENCY START SYSTEM and should ONLY EVER BE USED FOR THAT. So in your ignorance and failure to follow instructions you have over-discharged a perfectly good battery? Is Antigravity Batteries responsible for that? Are we supposed to provide a product that protects every aspect of the Users failures to maintain or use a product as intended?

So while I feel your questions are completely legitimate, and its great to do due diligence.... you are the one implying our system doesn't work because we have warranty exclusion. It not accurate to state one thing effects the others. Our system works fine, but won't cover issue such as above. Our system is not fool proof and can be manipulated, and will be by some users. How is that our responsibility?

Also you state we have a lot of exclusions, but we follow the typical warranty issues of all battery companies. You can review the Odyssey Battery Warranty here. http://www.odysseybattery.com/docume...-ODY-WS-AA.pdf

2) One of your exclusions is that you won't honor the warranty if the vehicle's charging system over charges the battery. However you also say you have deliberately not coded your own Porsche for the lithium battery you installed which means you are running this risk. When you posted that you seem to be contradicting your own warranty. I would have thought you should be mandating the update of the software to ensure the vehicles voltage regulator is Lithium-safe IF you are later going to use this to deny a warranty claim. Without coding the vehicles voltage regulator is set for an AGM lead acid battery. So is Antigravity's position that a dead battery that was overcharged by the vehicle's regulator would not be covered under warranty if the owner had not had the dealer code his car for lithium prior to installation?
IF the system is faulty, it would not be covered. IF the vehicle is charging using the regular AGM, or Flooded algorithm then it will work for our battery. there is no special charging setting like "lithium" that MUST be selected. We have seen it work both ways as I explained. These normals charging systems are standardized in Automobiles and do not charge above 15v. And an occasional spike above 15v will not affect the battery because of it protections. But if you system is outside of the Standard then that is a FAULTY SYSTEM.
So I'm not seeing how I am contradicting myself as you state. A Lead/Acid Charger is NOT the same as the Charging system in a car. Maybe thats what you mean?

3) You limit the warranty replacements to just one over the 5 year period. I don't understand why you would have such a limit if you stand behind your product and you also have stringent limitations within your warranty to exclude any claim that could even vaguely be caused by user behavior.
We are not being anymore strict or less strict than the warranties within our industry. Additionally we have had persons who will manipulate the system and use the battery in an un-intended way and then can keep coming back for a new battery. If you having to go through more than two of our batteries then there is something else wrong in the system.

Last, when we look at this in a broader perspective.... Do you understand the RENNLIST Community? Well if you don't, they are not going to suffer any bull**** at all. They will call out any product that doesn't work, they will ask every question possible from every angle, and call me out if I'm talking crap. This is not a crowd of ignorant 18 year-olds that can be swayed with a bunch of mumbo jumbo claims of saving 35lbs, this is a crowd of quite knowledgeable people. So I'm not going to come on here and talk a bunch of baloney to get a sales then screw people over and severely damage my business. That will just bite me in the butt and get a community of unhappy people here saying we are screwing people over and Antigravity sucks. On the other hand if our product works.... this is going to elevate our status in the Premium Car market much more quickly than some other forums. So my point is I'm not messing around here and we are going to not stand behind our product.

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Old 02-19-2019, 01:36 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Need4S View Post
Is there any electrical or capacity difference between your H6 and your soon to be H7, if both are 40Ah? Is it just the case size or are there more plates or whatever inside?

NO... all the Ah Capacity will work the same way.... only thing different is the Case Sizes so they fit how you want them to. 40Ah is the same no matter WHAT the exterior case is doing. So in essence its the same battery pack and BMS being put into different Cases
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:40 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by stealthpilot View Post
Nanook - what is your take on running our Dashcams and Antilaser systems with these lower Ah batteries? Should we be worried about parasitic drain?
You need to run the accessory dash cams battery... I think that Battery Magic is the one..... we have had our ONLY issues with the RS-30 occur in cars with the dash cams.... most were couple with Radar Detectors but the Dash Cam external battery eliminated the rapid parasitic draw.... people were tying into the Porsche system and for whatever reason it created a pretty good parasitic draw. So use that proprietary dash cam battery for sure. Wile the batteriies will handle charging a dash cam, we don't want it tied into a lower actual amp hour battery at all... we'e seen it mess with the RS-30.
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:46 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Nanook View Post
Are you represented or shipping this new unit into Canada yet?
We are represented in Canada through a few different locations however at this time they do not have access to the batteries, We can of course ship direct to Canada but it would just be a matter of getting an address and figuring out cost from there.
You can email [email protected] if you'd like to look further into this as well.

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Old 02-19-2019, 02:24 PM
  #53  
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Antigravity offers a 5 year warranty, the first 3 are direct replacement, and the final two are prorated. That's better than Braille, Optima or Banner or any other battery I can find. I don't think this is an issue.
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Old 02-19-2019, 04:21 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
You need to run the accessory dash cams battery... I think that Battery Magic is the one..... we have had our ONLY issues with the RS-30 occur in cars with the dash cams.... most were couple with Radar Detectors but the Dash Cam external battery eliminated the rapid parasitic draw.... people were tying into the Porsche system and for whatever reason it created a pretty good parasitic draw. So use that proprietary dash cam battery for sure. Wile the batteriies will handle charging a dash cam, we don't want it tied into a lower actual amp hour battery at all... we'e seen it mess with the RS-30.
Just to add some info to this there are a few systems for protecting the car battery:

This shuts the camera down when the battery reaches a preset level
https://www.kmph.ca/products/power-magic-pro

And these provide power when the vehicle is parked:
https://www.kmph.ca/products/cellink...ck-for-dashcam
https://www.kmph.ca/products/blackvue-b112-battery-pack
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:55 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
Ok it is scott again, wanted to finish answering your questions about our Warranty. Chad is answer the other questions while I'm out.

While your points are logical to you... they are not accurately reflecting what a business must do to protect itself from the infrequent but actual Customer Complaints or Warranty issues that accompany using something like a battery. There are many variables within a system that has a battery. Such as User Maintenance, additional electronics added to a system that can create a much higher level of parasitic draw, use in applications outside what we recommend them for. So we have encountered those issues and several more. After we sell a battery we do NOT know how it is maintained, if the user has other electronics on the car that create a drain so heavy that the Car drains the battery within a week or two. So we have to cover ourselves for the Customer that will eventually blame all the woes on the battery. And it does happen. They will not take responsibility for adding extra accessories to the car that make the battery drain faster. They will not accept responsibility for using a Lead/Acid Charger even if they do. We will also be blamed for the car not starting even though they have a Camera, Theft alarm , a big stereo wired into the car wrong. They will defeat the systems on our batteries by manipulating them. And if that aftermarket accessory is draining the hell out of the battery, they won't blame it... they will blame the battery for not having and infinite supply of power. So again this is RARE... but these are the facts. So we have to put something into place to cover this.



You wrote at the end of the paragraph above " this exclusion implies the BMS doesn't function as claimed".... NO, YOU imply this, we are not implying any such thing. But I can understand how you came to that conclusion. Here are a couple examples why we put this..
.
1- You have a car and that alternator is broken, it is spiking 18v to the battery.... after a certain amount of time our battery fails because it has been subjected to 18v from this faulty problem on YOUR CAR. Nothing to do with our Battery or its quality. It is your vehicles faulty system. So are we responsible for the faulty system in your Car? Am I supposed to be building a product that allows YOUR faulty system to continue to be faulty and my product is then supposed to cure this and offer long term protection against this? The over-charge feature was NOT meant to fix a faulty system, but provide a level of short term spikes in over-charge.

2-You keep putting our battery on a Lead/Acid Charger... though our User's Manual and Warnings on the Battery state NOT to do this... but you think you don't have to adhere to our maintenance procedures and after months on this lead/acid charger the battery finally fails. So are we supposed to develop a product that compensates for your lack of proper maintenance, and responsibility to use the proper charger as we suggested and require?

3- Let say you like cranking the Stereo at your local Cars and Coffee in your WRX, and blasting your favorite Kanye West... well you drain our battery down until is shuts off when Kanye is grooving really hard. So you get pissed because you drained the battery... but you know you can press the RE-START button and get another few minutes of play times.... so you do that.... then the battery cuts off again.... so you press the RE-START button again... then again.to hear a few more bits of your song. We'll your effective ruining our system and massively over-discharging and ruining the battery. Even though our Warranty clearly states the RE-START is and EMERGENCY START SYSTEM and should ONLY EVER BE USED FOR THAT. So in your ignorance and failure to follow instructions you have over-discharged a perfectly good battery? Is Antigravity Batteries responsible for that? Are we supposed to provide a product that protects every aspect of the Users failures to maintain or use a product as intended?

So while I feel your questions are completely legitimate, and its great to do due diligence.... you are the one implying our system doesn't work because we have warranty exclusion. It not accurate to state one thing effects the others. Our system works fine, but won't cover issue such as above. Our system is not fool proof and can be manipulated, and will be by some users. How is that our responsibility?

Also you state we have a lot of exclusions, but we follow the typical warranty issues of all battery companies. You can review the Odyssey Battery Warranty here. http://www.odysseybattery.com/docume...-ODY-WS-AA.pdf



IF the system is faulty, it would not be covered. IF the vehicle is charging using the regular AGM, or Flooded algorithm then it will work for our battery. there is no special charging setting like "lithium" that MUST be selected. We have seen it work both ways as I explained. These normals charging systems are standardized in Automobiles and do not charge above 15v. And an occasional spike above 15v will not affect the battery because of it protections. But if you system is outside of the Standard then that is a FAULTY SYSTEM.
So I'm not seeing how I am contradicting myself as you state. A Lead/Acid Charger is NOT the same as the Charging system in a car. Maybe thats what you mean?



We are not being anymore strict or less strict than the warranties within our industry. Additionally we have had persons who will manipulate the system and use the battery in an un-intended way and then can keep coming back for a new battery. If you having to go through more than two of our batteries then there is something else wrong in the system.

Last, when we look at this in a broader perspective.... Do you understand the RENNLIST Community? Well if you don't, they are not going to suffer any bull**** at all. They will call out any product that doesn't work, they will ask every question possible from every angle, and call me out if I'm talking crap. This is not a crowd of ignorant 18 year-olds that can be swayed with a bunch of mumbo jumbo claims of saving 35lbs, this is a crowd of quite knowledgeable people. So I'm not going to come on here and talk a bunch of baloney to get a sales then screw people over and severely damage my business. That will just bite me in the butt and get a community of unhappy people here saying we are screwing people over and Antigravity sucks. On the other hand if our product works.... this is going to elevate our status in the Premium Car market much more quickly than some other forums. So my point is I'm not messing around here and we are going to not stand behind our product.
The problem here is how do you know if the issue was a faulty alternator, or an incorrect charger used, or a faulty lithium charger, or an idiot using the restart to get a few extra minutes of playtime?

By excluding overcharging and over discharge, you are assuming the BMS NEVER fails, and the issue is ALWAYS faulty customer equipment or bad customer behavior.

While I have no doubt that sometimes the customer may have a faulty alternator, or be using an incorrect battery charger, I also believe that sometimes the software on your battery could fail.

Also while I appreciate the value of the opinion of the Rennlist community, I cannot find a single Turbo S driver on this particular section who has an Antigravity battery. There are some who recently ordered one, but no longstanding users. You come across very well and make a great first impression, but it's not like lots of board members I know have been using your batteries for years without issues, nor can I find any example of anyone who has made a successful warranty claim on this section of the board. So reputation is unproven - although first impression is solid.

If I was you I would offer rennlist members a solid warranty that reflects the fact that your battery has built-in protections that the competition cannot match. I for one want to buy your battery, but not on the terms of your warranty.

Last edited by stealthpilot; 02-19-2019 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 02-19-2019, 06:13 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by stealthpilot View Post
The problem here is how do you know if the issue was a faulty alternator, or an incorrect charger used, or a faulty lithium charger, or an idiot using the restart to get a few extra minutes of playtime?

By excluding overcharging and over discharge, you are assuming the BMS NEVER fails, and the issue is ALWAYS faulty customer equipment or bad customer behavior.

While I have no doubt that sometimes the customer may have a faulty alternator, or be using an incorrect battery charger, I also believe that sometimes the software on your battery could fail.

Also while I appreciate the value of the opinion of the Rennlist community, I cannot find a single Turbo S driver on this particular section who has an Antigravity battery. There are some who recently ordered one, but no longstanding users. You come across very well and make a great first impression, but it's not like lots of board members I know have been using your batteries for years without issues, nor can I find any example of anyone who has made a successful warranty claim on this section of the board. So reputation is unproven - although first impression is solid.


You just summed up why I am installing a 50AH Braille. Nothing at all against AG. They have a terrific price point. More Comp will bring all of the prices down.I hope they are highly successful. I have 3 of these over 7 years, zero failures.
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Old 02-20-2019, 01:27 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by stealthpilot View Post
The problem here is how do you know if the issue was a faulty alternator, or an incorrect charger used, or a faulty lithium charger, or an idiot using the restart to get a few extra minutes of playtime?

By excluding overcharging and over discharge, you are assuming the BMS NEVER fails, and the issue is ALWAYS faulty customer equipment or bad customer behavior.

While I have no doubt that sometimes the customer may have a faulty alternator, or be using an incorrect battery charger, I also believe that sometimes the software on your battery could fail.

Also while I appreciate the value of the opinion of the Rennlist community, I cannot find a single Turbo S driver on this particular section who has an Antigravity battery. There are some who recently ordered one, but no longstanding users. You come across very well and make a great first impression, but it's not like lots of board members I know have been using your batteries for years without issues, nor can I find any example of anyone who has made a successful warranty claim on this section of the board. So reputation is unproven - although first impression is solid.

If I was you I would offer rennlist members a solid warranty that reflects the fact that your battery has built-in protections that the competition cannot match. I for one want to buy your battery, but not on the terms of your warranty.
My statements don't seem to meet your needs or requirements. I can only suggest you look at your other options.

Your statement that we should offer Rennlist Member a solid warranty is a bit offensive to me since we already offer a great warranty on the product. You also imply that there are no Turbo owners are using us... that is quite wrong. So from my perspective it appears your needs have not been met by Antigravity Batteries so its not a good fit for you. The best options are probably Braille, Lithium Pros or Volt Phreaks. Braille is not your best option if you want protections. I recommend Volt Phreaks well before the other companies I mentioned.
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Old 02-20-2019, 05:51 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
Your statement that we should offer Rennlist Member a solid warranty is a bit offensive to me since we already offer a great warranty on the product.
That's a matter of opinion. If you have a BMS that prevents overcharge and over discharge as you claim in your marketing materials then your warranty should back that up. There is a fundamental disconnect between your marketing statements and your warranty.

Originally Posted by Antigravity Product Description on website
Our superior on-board Battery Management System (BMS) offers Safety Circuitry to prevent Over-Discharge and Over-Charge, and has Short-Circuit protections, while additionally offering Cell Balancing and Thermal protections. These advanced features of our BMS make the battery not only as safe as possible, but also extend the life of the battery by keeping the battery in the prime operating zone and not allowing damage to the battery.
Originally Posted by Antigravity warranty documentation
WARRANTY DOES ​NOT​ COVER THE FOLLOWING ELECTRICAL RELATED ISSUES​.
⬜ Over Charging battery above 14.6v
⬜ Over Discharge of battery below 9.8v
⬜ Allowing voltage to drop below 9.8v by lack of charging maintenance

Those two quotes show a clear inconsistency.



Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
You also imply that there are no Turbo owners are using us... that is quite wrong.
What I implied that there is no post on this part of the site by a 991TTS owner who has been using your product for a year or more who has reviewed it and said it is a reliable battery based on that experience. If you disagree prove it and show me a link to the post.

Last edited by stealthpilot; 02-20-2019 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:49 AM
  #59  
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I may just be too limited in my thinking, but I do not understand the fascination with overcharge/discharge Circuitry if you do not add aftermarket drains to the car.I understand the nanny aspect of it, but, “for me” , it has never been needed and could be something else to fail. I’ve never had an issue in 42 years. Also don’t understand why you gig Braille when they have a 1/2% failure rate and I’ve had zero issues in 3 batteries from them in 7-8 years of using Braille. I do understand Competition and wish you well. You can promote your technology without going political. Over time, the nannies might become a standard and you would lead the way.
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Old 02-20-2019, 11:37 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by onfireTTS
I may just be too limited in my thinking, but I do not understand the fascination with overcharge/discharge Circuitry if you do not add aftermarket drains to the car.
Agree. But a lot of people do have after market drains.

I for one have a Thinkware dashcam and a radar detection and laser jamming system.

In principle the Thinkware shouldn't pose an issue because it has software that monitors battery voltage and cuts off at a user determined threshold which I set at 11.9v.
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