GT3.2 Nordschleife
 

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...68dfb36caf.png
My first post- and its no nice one:

tbe below says that the Nordschleifen Time for the .2 GT3 is 7:29

7:22 was the new GTS.....


would say that is very disappointing - any views?

Willkommen.

There are already posts with this pic and time. The discussion is going on in those threads. HTH

You can check some discussion at 991.2 GTS, GT3, GT2, GT3 RS, Mission E - Update, anyway, Porsche boss says they don't care about ring time, so that's the result, take it or leave it. I will take .2 GT3 no matter it's 10 min in the ring. But not the performante even it's at top of the production car ring lap time record.

I'm personally devastated by these news : I can't sleep,I can't eat...life makes no sense anymore. I was careless enough today to cut my pinky with a piece of paper! :crying:

.1 gt3 was 7.25 at the ring. Why would the new one with more power and same weight, better aerodynamics be slower? Doesn't sound right unless this is the manual gt3 time.

Maybe more aero hurt it on a track like this? No idea but i doubt any of us would ever notice.

I remain skeptical regarding this ad. I don't recall Porsche advertising a Ring time to sell a GT car especially one that is slower than its predecessor .1GT3 (7.25) which did it with factory drivers. I can't believe factory drivers couldn't beat that time with 25 more hp and better tires. Also, how does this ad square with AP's comments that lap times are no longer relevant? They advertise a slower time?:banghead:

It just doesn't make sense.

Agreed. Maybe conditions were worse? Straight up you would expect the new one to be a little quicker.

Taking ring time as the only measure is stupid, but 7:29 sounds slow in today's standard.
And...slower than the previous generation doesn't look good by any means.

This is what you get when you demand a car that doesn't self immolate and provides oiling to all parts of the engine.

LOL

^ It's the Russians...

Vivian

Anyone can publish a video proving
the .1 GT3 7:22???

.1GT3 was 7:32

About .2GTS time same question indeed, where s the 7:25 evidence?

Guys you have to know that MOst of the modern Ring times from brands are computer hypothesis
smthing like given the HP,Tq,Tires,Aero drag,Weight etc etc etc
model x Ring time is...
do you wanna see my racing simulators Ring time too?

The new AMG GTR does it in 7:10!!! Yet it can easily be bought from most MBZ dealers at MSRP. My friend is getting the first one from his local dealer and I don't think he has even bought a car from them before. The 991 turbo S does it in 7:25 yet every dealer has a bunch of them. Maybe ring time doesn't really translate into desirability anymore.

This is a true Ring time
Video that anyone can see and most important
from no-amg driver

Awesome welcome....

Was it the same driver, same conditions. I assume unless a robot is driving that small amount could be explained by several factors.

Nürburgring time indeed is a strong focus with regard to the GT3.
(For the Manual option Preuniger indeed said, its not about the last second)


So this indeed is a "first worl problem", but the Nordschleife is THE referende track and I consider the release of this add a marketing desaster:
-stronger engine (+25 HP vs. .1)
-significantly better tyres
-usual upgrade for PDK and Aeros
and slower vs the .1


what are they thinking about us, the customers.
I have one to be delivered 11/2017 and I'm more than surprised ...

sry for the typos - mobile...

I posted this in another thread:

There´s something odd about this....If you remember when you open a Porsche code in the config there´s a time of 7:18 written all over the silhouette of the GT3. Maybe Porsche is playing us and the real time has been there all along? (7:18)

This might be some "clever" marketing stunt

FAKE NEWS

@Swede1
that is the code - start page for every model, right. So I dont see the link to the GT3? silhouette could be a gts as well ;-)

okay its odd - i agree
here is what could have happened :-)

1. bad weather the day(s) they did the run(s)
2. it was indeed a manual, pdk time will follow
3. the ad was just poorly done - it did say something like a sunday stroll to the ring and do a 7.29 and go home and relax - so maybe it was supposed to imply a normal person going to the ring doing a good lap and then go home but it wasnt the official time - maybe they dont have an offical time yet (again for weather reasons) and marketing wanted to do the add anyways so they choose a time which is conversative and definately beatable
4. a typo :-) was supposed to be 7.19

and here you go, my top 4 reasons

Is this someone trolling all of you

Seems quite suspicious. No chance the time is slower than .1. That might look real but its either someone cat fishing or a PS.

it was on paper (porsche times) and me such as other porsche owners had it in the postbox.


if still of the opinion this is "fake news" (many thanks by the way).. check is ou on the web:
http://www.porsche-times-online.de

If its real, what a slap in the face of the new car!! My new GT3 is slower than GTS!! Doesn't make sense.

AGREE

I just cancelled my allocation.

You all should also do the same

Whatever time the new one set, given the same track condition, driver, etc. the previous model would be slightly slower. Is this is even an accurate time, the situation must have been a little worse.

nice try to get an allocation :bigbye:

I have made this offer in the past : a nice dinner in NYC for 2 or 500$ through Paypal to the one that can achieve 7:29 on the Ring.
Conditions :
1) Must drive his personal 991.2 GT3.
2) It has to be stock,including stock tires. Aggressive alignment is OK.
3) No professional driver,meaning driving for a living.
4) Must be a Rennlist member.
5) Must show proof : telemetry plus video.
6) Must wear helmet.

DISCLAIMER : I am not responsible for the outcome of this challenge in case you crash. Drive at your own risk.
I am putting this out there for entertainment only and as a small reward in recognition of a great driver.
I also want to prove how meaningless the Ring time is in real World.

:cheers:

:thumbup:Well said :thumbup:

The 991.2 GTS will be faster around the ring with equal tires. 450 hp and 404 ft/lbs of torque. They should have given the 991.2 GT3 at least 354 ft/lb like the cup car.

Slow is the new fast, and you'll fight to pay for it. Porsche doing this just for lolz, our German masters.

The GT3 should have been a turbo...

so the GTS is faster and can be order with 5 lugs. Winner!!

Entertaining, but I disagree. Ring times are very relevant to real world road and track performance. Even if only an expert can extract 100% of the performance, it still demonstrates the potential performance in a meaningful way that other tests do not reflect.

Ok,but my offer is very serious. It would be my pleasure to offer a small reward to a Rennlister that could achieve it.
Even if the official 991.2 GT3 Ring time turns out to be better,I am happy if someone achieves 7:29.

I look forward to taking my GT3 on the Ring, but I'll be aiming for around 8:29 (and shorter Bridge to Gate length) :D

I've only been on one previous trip and this is not a place to be a hero without lots of experience there...

I agree completely...The new GTS with a manual is a mini GT2. :biggulp:

Torque wins the DE

Penty of dudes hanging out at the Ring that will clock one of for you no problem on a clear day.

Here comes Martin's GTS dealer allocation thread & ebay pricing

I understand your point, but the Ring time is important because it gives people the ability to judge a car's tracking ability. Otherwise if there were no lap times, people would be buying cars based on subjective opinions. We can't even drive most of these GT cars before they are purchased, so it is one of the ways people judge a cars performance.

Eliminates the one lap wonders..

And the Nordschliefe (unique among race tracks) also implies quite a bit about a car's ability on streets, autobahns, and mountain roads...

Typo.. 7:19 :D

I understand the Ring time has become an industry standard for all manufacturers that are building relevant fast cars,but in most cases,it will remain a bragging argument at the local C&C.
There have been cars in the past built specifically to achieve great numbers at the Ring and absolutely sucked on the road. My memory is not helping me at the moment to give you an example,but I'm sure someone here will.
Also,will you not buy the car if 7:29 is the correct time? Hell,cheaper 911s did better. AMG GT-R did 7:10,but I wouldn't personally buy that car over the GT3. And I love AMG!

Yes, I will buy the car anyway. But, it doesn't stop me from being interested at why it should be 4 seconds slower than 991.1 GT3 when it outdoes that car with more power and torque (at every rpm), 20% more downforce, sticker tires, racier brake pads, improved tuning for front and rear wheel steering, and evolved suspension, while maintaining the same redline, gearing, aero drag, and weight.

The magic all happened with the 991.1 top end. :icon107:

Because it is not. This number is obviously wrong. Porsche has never released a new car slower than its predecessor. I knew that from the beginning. So what's left to discuss besides why is this Ring number so relevant... ;)

You must be too young to remember 1974 ;)

I'm not saying that is why I would buy a car based on ring times, just saying its a good gauge for potential buyers in addition to other factors. I will be getting a 991.2 GT3 in stick :D

It's just another data point.

Definitely! ;)

Congrats,you're gonna love it! :thumbup:

I think you are both wrong because the official Ring number for 991.1 GT3 was 7:30 ;)
Here's some Ring numbers from articles published by Porsche.
997 GT3 RS 4.0 time 7:27
997 GT2 RS time 7:18
991 GT3 3.8 time 7:30 (7:29)
991 GT3 RS 4.0 time 7:20

So if the new 991.2 GT3 doing 7:27 I think it's fine :bigbye:

About the 2014 GT3:

"Porsche claims the new car has already successfully lapped the Nürburgring in 7:25, 15 seconds faster than the last 911 GT3"

http://autoweek.com/article/car-revi...-gets-reloaded

And here (Timo Kluk, 7:25):
http://fastestlaps.com/models/porsche-911-gt3-991

That's what I thought too : 7:25 was the last one...

“It’s not our mainstream program to have the quickest lap times and to advertise our cars only by lap time because, to be honest with you, if you have a car with the perfect setup for the Nurburgring, it will be a dog on the street and everywhere else.” - AP

inverse advertising - this advert shows how good the car is on the street according to AP comments...

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...lap-times.html

These are the articles by car magazines (Autoweek...)
I said articles published by Porsche!
Yes, maybe and probably 991.1 GT3 does 1:25 without no problem at all but the official time was 1:30 :)

I tried to find the official press release from the 991.1 GT3's debut, but I couldn't find it (nothing that old on porsche.com). Do you have it?

I don't have it but I got this information from a friend who is running the site Stuttcars.com
He is using the information directly from Porsche, not from the car magazines.

7:29 might just be the manual time.....:roflmao:

I was told to expect Manual to be about 5 secs slower than PDK-S, so it still doesn't make sense (would expect something close to 7:19 for PDK-S and 7:24 for Manual)...

Interesting numbers on the 991.2 S coupe:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ic-test-review
New 991.2 S PDK test:

Zero to 60 mph: 3.1 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 7.5 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 12.9 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 18.5 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 3.9 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 2.4 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 2.4 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 11.4 sec @ 123 mph
Top speed (drag limited, mfr's claim): 190 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 142 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 1.04 g


Expect the new 911 GTS with 450hp and 405 pound feet to shave a few tenths off those times as well....

2014 911 GT3:

Zero to 60 mph: 3.0 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 7.1 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 12.0 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 3.9 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 2.2 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 2.1 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 11.2 sec @ 126 mph
Top speed (drag limited, mfr's claim): 195 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 135 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 1.12 g


2008 911 GT2:

Zero to 60 mph: 3.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 8.1 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 18.0 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.2 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 9.5 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 7.9 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 11.8 sec @ 121 mph
Top speed (drag limited, mfr's claim): 206 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 155 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: .98 g

https://youtu.be/dIxSau8czNk

At 3:30 Evo states "Porsche reckons it'll go under 7 minutes 20 seconds".

More evidence for the 7:19 Ring time.

Porsche reckon means Race simulator times

It's pretty obvious that it is the manual version.

Bet that figure is the manual time. Porsche officially slowed it down to emphasize involvement rather than performance. AP's idea for sure.

If i wanted a comfort car id choose the gts and save 50k, porsche needs to give us something now!

This is the best take on it personally. There are many factors in buying a car, it depends on the person what data or qualities they value the most.

I have become less and less interested in lap times and 0-60 etc. As long as the car is in the ballpark for these data points, I am more interested in subjective feel, engagement etc. If you want the car to stay NA, I believe you have to stop thinking the next version HAS to be faster.

What do you think they did to make it about 10 sec slower than PDK-S then? Should be half that...

I am ok with the car not being faster than a previous model as long as it's not artificially made slower (991.2 Manual should be at least as fast as 991.1 pdk-s)

Geez guys, 7:29 is the manual transmission time. In an interview Preuigner said that the DCT time is just short of 7:20, so I'm guessing 7:21.

DCT: 7:21
6MT: 7:29

Everyone can relax now.

Hope the Sport Auto Supertest will include an example with each gearbox...

I focus on the endurance of a GT car as it's main performance benefit compared to other cars. All 911's and Caymans are inherently fast. The GT cars are designed specifically to endure the stresses of track abuse while carrying a wonderful balance to be comfortable on the street. The brakes, suspension, and tires can all take a beating right out of the box to a higher degree than the base, S, or GTS versions can. The NA motors produce a sound (which is huge part of the driving experience for me) which is much more raw and exhilarating than any turbo motor I've ever heard. A 718 S will turn a faster lap time than my GT4, but I honestly don't care. The driving experience and aforementioned reasons for which I buy a GT car are perfect for me regardless of the Ring time.

Bravo!

It's either a mistake, and it's irrelevant, or it's not a mistake and it's irrelevant since either way the 'involvement' of the manual far outweighs whatever the numbers. Lap times aren't the focus of the manual right? Or not?

I like to focus on laptimes (improving my own) ;)

Lap times are important to some of the crowd. I care because I enjoy running faster then viper, vettes, GTR'S etc.. giving up +150 hp & tq. Porsches are efficient and robust and if properly maintained don't break down. That is why I pay the premium for arguably less car for a lot more money. There are some GT3's running low 2:20's at COTA which is insane speed and efficiency for the cars overall specs compared to competition.

Porsche ring time claims are the oppopsite of porsche claimed 0-60 mph times.

Maybe they've changed their practice to quote more realistic numbers.

Something that SA will be within 1-2s of.

Look at the 488. Dealers are actually cold-calling my friends trying to get them to order one. The 458 is actually holding really well. Turns out a N/A engine and 9K redline and a screaming engine and exhaust sound adds up to much more allure than a more powerful engine (100hp more) engine that has a lower redline and doesn't sound as good. The even older F430 with a manual commands crazy prices right now. Involvement and tactile sensation apparently still translates to commercial value. Maybe that's why we are all on this GT3 forum right now and not the 991 TT forum.

Its a bit of a paradox to some degree - lets swallow some honesty pills :)

(1) At a guess 99% of people that purchase a GT3 or GT3RS can not drive it to its limits on track. To many of those the ultimate ring time will mean little.

(2) To some of those above, the ring time may matter in as much as they may look at similar or faster alternatives and make a judgement call as to which they may prefer

(3) To the 1% of drivers that really push the car to its limits, there are two factors at play (a) increased reliability and (b) increased performance that will exert some influence on a final decision. Getting both of these will induce a bigger smile than just one of these.

Therefore its safe to say that ring times do both inform and influence - thats why manufacturers advertise them.

oh and the sound thing - on track most people I know use ear plugs, as do I.

Different driver or the 7.29 time was from a simulated run.

When the 991.1 GT3 first came out Porsche said it is capable of a sub 7:30 and then later a 7:25 came out with racing driver Timo Kluck behind the wheel.

I believe a better time will come out later on.

The ring time matters some amount, and ring time differences between generations matter a lot. We buy these cars not for practical use but as engineering marvels designed to go fast. So a slower car that's very similar otherwise (no big difference in hp, tires, gearbox or aero) is not better and would be a step back from the engineering standpoint.

But I see no reason for the new GT3 to be slower - it makes no sense, given the better engine, better aero and especially since AP mentioned that they improved tire compounds in MPSC2s for the .2 generation. It's either a typo, a fake or a manual gearbox time.

Wasn't 7.25 advertised as 991.1 GT3 factory time?

That way 7.29 makes little sense for 991.2 GT3 as a factory time because the track has become lot quicker during the recent years, more grippier new tarmac, less bumps etc.

And Manual vs PDK is not that big of difference.

Waiting forward for confirmation for this...

Exactly - 7:29 is way too slow even for Manual version (which is only slightly slower than PDK-S on a road course). And as mentioned above, all times should be faster now with reshaping of sections of the track like Flugplatz which makes them faster (unsettles the car less and can brake less and later)...

Have we ever seen a 911R ring time??
Also, perhaps Porsche simulated the manual time? AP is keen to point out one gains a half a car length per shift with PDK-S. Maybe they added up the total number of shifts and multiplied it by how much slower the shift is than PDK-S? Just guessing.

Not a Ring time, but 911R was faster than 991.1 GT3 at Hockenheim:

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim-short

Here is the full story.

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/prod...ime-13710.html

Not bad for a company that doesn't care all that much about ring times. and on SC2 tires :D

The ADM just went up 30K $ over the already 50K $ in place at your friendly California dealer! :roflmao: :roflmao:

Lol! Porsche has never been about laptimes. Yeh right.
AP is walking around with a big smile today.

Holy Sh!t, I thought I didn't read it right.

That's punching way above its weight.
I'm floored.
Are we sure this doesn't have MPSC2 N1 cheater tires a la AMG GT R?

Nice result and it now proves without a doubt that yellow is faster than white.

Crushed it!

Ran on MPSC N1 tires.

What a performance! Congrats Porsche!!

I watched the video just watching his hands. I can't believe the time he set with so little need for correction. I love watching these professionals, from the in car camera it looks like he is out for a Sunday drive. Seems pretty stable under braking as well.

Interesting the car/he is shifting between 8500 and 8800 rpm.

Who needs a turbo...

Nice work Flacht!


:cheers:

:jumper::jumper::jumper:

Great time. :cheers:

The Porsche video in the link promises stock tires same as delivered to customers...

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/prod...ime-13710.html

Yes, this is a recurring trend I have noticed too. Seen in multiple vids the car shifts at 8800 rpm in auto mode !

I mean, I'm happy to see this, but I find it was funny that...

When 7:29 came out..

"Well ring times don't matter"
"It's the driving experience that counts"
"Ring times only matter to Lambo drivers"

When the 7:12... .7 (because the .7 clearly is important):

"Porsche is awesome"
"We knew it all along"
"King of the ring"
"The world is happy again"

I'm not criticizing.. because honestly I did the same thing to a small degree. I can admit it. I'm hypocritical at times

Yes that's funny!
Wait untill the 2.RS comes out :roflmao:

Don t need to wait .2RS
.1RS under MSRP for a long while

Most of us were saying the 7:29 was the manual driven time and the manual was about experience so we were ok with 7:29.

The smoking 7:12 was with the spec concerned with ring times, the PDK... and boy did it lay it down!

I'm impressed!

A GT3 is a GT3...

+712

UPDATED...
 

..... Equipped with rear-axle steering, a seven-speed Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK) and Michelin Sport Cup 2 N1 tyres, the sports vehicle approached the starting line in the Eifel in its standard trim. .....

15 seconds faster than 997 RS 4.0 (last Manual NA king) - wow!

^+1
Seriously impressive..:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

GT3 is officially in the Top 10 on that list (918 is listed twice)...

The track is now also faster as was before!

Good point. One of the reasons I knew the 7:29 time (even for Manual) was BS...

Why is car shifting a 8600-8800?

At least the drivers seat is not the stock !
So the Press relese fact that "the car was in its standard trim" is not quite right ?

They put racing seats and harnesses in most cars for ring times. This is for safety.

Let me make a wild guess... you didn't order a .2 GT3? :roflmao:

Really useful!

Would love to see the same graph normalized for time (I.e. basically ring time vs. model)

Off course not. Once you have the RS you wil stay with RS !

I had the GT3 before, was great car but it will never be the RS :burnout:

By far most significant "facelift"...

LOL! That's some Botox

Excellent point. What is the typical variance in lap times between now and before it was repaved?

i take back everything bad i've said about the .2GT3

Interesting to consider: the Nissan GT-R was a 2009 model year.

Pre GT-R: 1.6 seconds per year.
Post GT-R? 3.4 seconds per year...

Maybe competition really does improve the breed.

It looks like he's driving in manual mode (at least lots of manual upshifts), can't clearly see the left hand so hard to tell.

Remember peak power is 8,250 rpm like the .1 cars.

918 twice due to different drivers.... :)

^OT Love your avatar.. I met Eddie in person.. super nice guy.. :D

Let me take a wild guess. 12 seconds!! Mark

Indeed impressive time. Well done Porsche.
Hopefully it doesn't degrade the value of my 991.1 GT3 by the time my new 991.2 GT3 manual arrives in December. Perhaps should dump the old car now!

Good God...

You can generally tell where the money is parked based on where the scrutiny is placed :roflmao:

RS is a great car. It's OK to celebrate the .2 GT3 as well :thumbup:

It really doesn't matter, because it was the manual one, it really doesn't matter that much, MT in this car is for the enjoyment part rather than fast laps.

As " exciting " as all this commotion is,I'm still not buying performance cars for their Ring time. One thing I can tell you though,there's no way in Hell the manual car is 17s slower on that track!

So do do the current 991 GT3 and RS short shift in auto mode at WOT? I drive mine in "manual PDK" mode most of the time and don't really watch the tach when in auto mode on track

Welcome back Pete.

It is if it's driven by me :roflmao:

Maybe time to start thinking 2:14 for your next RS.....

Guilty.. haha :roflmao::D

It doesn't matter if manual is 20 sec slower, in manual form there is absolutely no competition for this car today at any price bracket.

That's pretty optimistic Andy,don't you think? :D
I know I'd be thrilled with 11-12s! :thumbsup:

Still, I believe that there is something going on with this new lap time. I love that its this fast and can now be compared against the Mercedes AMG GTR but at the same time it leaves me a bit confused.

How come its 12 seconds faster if there hasnt been THAT much of a change, is it because the track is grippier? is it because of the driver? is the car completely stock? Those seats are not so we cant see anything about it. Now GT3 (RS) 991.1 have to be closer to this time than the ones that are on record other wise this the .2 is not just an update but rather a NEW car.

Again I love this new GT3 as I love all the GT3s but I think that older GT cars need to be re run again to make sure that those 12s faster claimed are real rather than just a "different" laptime achieved by the older gen.

Sorry if this is confusing tried to phrase it the best way possible.

Agree that the Ring is faster than it used to be, so it would be nice to see the 991.1 and 997 GT cars run the ring again and then compared the time differences to the 991.2 GT3.

Mark, I dumped mine the morning this as this came out:

Attachment 1161908

I'm also a bit skeptical. First there is no stock bucket seat. Of course it does not affect time much, but the driver is more stable in full cup bucket with cup harness and this can affect driving style for sure. Especially on track like ring. Fast and bumpy.

Second I don't see and feel this speed in corners and straights like i see on AMG GTR. And time is pretty much the same.

Pretty big difference to pre lift GT3 which did amazingly fast time not a long ago.

RS has a lot of body differences and is slower 7 second ?! I don't know... There is something not completly ok with this time or video.

285kmh top speed! And it took forever from 275-285. How much runway do you need to hit top speed of 320kmh?

He was cruising!

im also a bit confused:

It does not seem to be any quicker in a straight line than the old car and yet it achieved much better times at 2 different tracks. merc gt-r was quicker but allegedly it had cheater tyres.oh and a lot more torque and 77 more hp. Huracan performante time is also a big surprise.

it seems after diesel gate its time for the "nurburgring gate scandal", they somehow shrink the distance between the gates so people on this forum can argue for ages, i mean pages

I think this is the most important question. People cried fowl with the Performante time gain citing little hp and aero changes can hardly explain the time delta between it and the "base" car and I wonder if part of the improvement was track conditions. It would be nice to know the same car time before and after the track fixes.

This is funny. Car is obviously faster. It has some safety equipment for the balls-out run. If this is BS then presumably all the other times are BS. Things move on. If it makes you feel better the 992.2 GT3 Mr. Fusion Hybrid is going to kick the crap out of the 991.2 GT3.

20s faster than the SA time for the .1....

what changes did they make to the Nurburgring when it was shut down for renovations? Its a fun thing to compare times, but a lot of variables at play that can effect the lap time. Interesting seat in that yellow GT3, obviously not stock.

They re-profiled certain sections for safety, like Flugplatz (less likely to get airborne)...

Depends if I'm chasing a car that's made entirely of bacon and being driven by a supermodel...

Ring is slightly improved.

But this is evolution. Cars are getting better and faster.
To knock 15sec of a 997rs4.0 is nothing short of amazing. Even if track is slightly faster and tires have a little more grip.
That's what 6 years of development does.
Big thumbs up for the AP team with this new 991.2gt3.
Can't wait to drive one.
Can only imagine what the gt2rs will be like. 918 times might be in range.

is it just me or does the .2 in the vid seems to have a lot more compression in the bumpy sections of this track??

I'd love someone to put a Cup2 tyre on the 4.0 nevermind the newest spec N1 tyre to see the real difference. Tyre tech moving forward has imo produced the vast majority of the lap time improvements.

My thought too. If this car really does have more damping potential as suggested, this would be a great thing on the road, too.

Yes, tires are a big part of the improvement (maybe half of the difference if you go to N1, not N0). But I think chassis and engine (including the 500rpm higher redline) make a big difference too.

997 rs 4.0 pilot sport cup were really bad...mpsc2 it's big improvement
PDKS vs manual is very big advantage at Ring
4 wheels steering
PVT
etc etc

what 4.0 does is still a miracle for a full analogue car

It is a section called "Döttinger Höhe", it is going up the hill, therefore speed is increasing slowly ...

^ Thanks for the explanation.

Cup 1 were not bad in dry conditions, your other arguments count of course ...

This is interesting, don't know if its legit, but this person did a 7:14 in his 991.1 GT3 on Trefeo R.

7.2RS came with Cup+ tyres I thought or perhaps my memory is a bit hazy? Which imo were a long way behind the Cup2. Cup1s were a different kettle of fish obviously if a tad poor in the rain.

It says "7:14 BTG" in the title of the vid, because it's a shortened track (Bridge to Gate) - about 20 sec of the track excluded...

Ok, thanks, yeah I thought it was quite fast for a 991.1 GT3.

LOL. I am just enjoying this nice weather before it is gone forever.

How the hell are you. We should get together soon and catch up.

Mark

I forgot to ask you when are you supposed to get your 991.2 GT3 and did you order it through sunset? Mine (V200) and is a manual, is scheduled for manufacturing in mid October with estimated delivery last week of December, although sunset is saying expect early January due to the Holidays. Mark

Hmmm, yellow seems to be the fast color...and the guy didn't seem to be on the lairy edge on that 7:12 run-like there was more if he pushed a bit more. All good!

After watching the video, I suspect with manual the driver would have had a problem getting it under 7.20.

The guy with the .1, 7:15 run seemed to be more on edge with a few oversteer moments. Track looked like it might have been damp. Very interested in what the .2 RS will bring. They just keep getting faster...

That guy is Manu (manuma here and powerslidelover in youtube) he is pretty fast everywhere, but he is a great amateur driver, but not even a regular on Nurburgring and still he is faster than pretty much everyone with a gt3, out the record lap.

P.S. If someone is worth a follow on Instagram and youtube is this guy, he always has extraordinary sideway footage with the craziest cars.

porsche gt division marketing spin in high gear

these times are not controlled with the cars and drivers and conditions and tires on an apples to apples basis - take all with many grains of salt... classic product marketing brilliance letting those who want to believe believe what they want and getting lots of publicity in the process

Take all that conspiracy theories and what do you have? What are you doubting?

you're kidding right? noob :banghead:

I want to know how much improved, someone needs to grab a 4.0, 991.1RS and 991.2GT3 and show what's what.

If the car is not cheater, this is very impressive. Ring improved or not.




Yes, he likes the rear loose!

Seems like you either trust all of Porsche's published 'ring times or you don't trust any of them. I guess many people are disappointed that it's faster than the .1 GT3 and even the .1 RS given the weird promotion of the 7:29 time...

That would be epic. Same tires, stock cars with good setup.

I see no reason to invoke conspiracy with this new time. I figure a 1% improvement in power to weight ratio is worth about a bit under .2% laptime reduction at the Ring, so the power bump is worth over ~3 seconds. Tires have been dropping laptime at nearly .3% per year- a further ~5 seconds. Together this leaves just a ~4 second gap to close.

Porsche has done two revs of this platform between the first GT3 and this one, the GT3 RS and the R. One assumes they learned a thing or two about setup, rear wheel steering and shift times, particularly since this was all virgin territory when the 991.1 was released. Then consider that the increased downforce came with no drag penalty (courtesy of the R's under-body development I'm sure)- more time there. Put in some reasonable time assumptions for these improvements and you're easily within a second or two- within the margin of repeat-ability or a slightly improved track.

Overall I think people are surprised largely because the 991.1 RS didn't do better, but there are two likely explanations for that time. First, I'm sure didn't fully reflect what the car was capable of, and second the RS's wide body and heavy aero isn't all that suited to the 'ring. Take that time out and the 991.2's time is right on top of where we'd expect it. Far better than previous mid-cycle updates to be sure, but that's likely reflective of the clear increase in development resources on display these days (new engine, 2 new models, new underbody aero, etc).

My rule of thumb is that 'Ring times are dropping at ~3 seconds per year, so I'm simply glad they put in the effort rather than phoning it in...

That's what I've always said. That's why it's called Racing Yellow. :D

Thank you for your thoughts. Very enlightening... IMO, it's great to have you posting & sharing.. :burnout:

+1 It all makes sense.

Just imagine what sort of time they would have run in a white one.

Still, you are talking out of your @rse. The time is nothing crazy, it's sensible, the track alone after the work is a lot faster, tires are a better rework version of the mpsc2. Hell, if they lapped the 991 Gt3RS again, with this new tires and on the 'new' track it might be faster than this one.

But tell me, what do you really think they did? Slicks? Added some KW coilovers? Forgot what engine should go in and added the GT2RS engine? THis is not properly a turbo car that you can do a 'lap' map without no one noticing, this is a low displacement NA engine. The adjustments that they did to the suspension are the ones that everyone should do before going to track in the limits available. Tires are pretty much the best street option (some might say Trofeo R are better).

Want to go on the weight route? How much weight really do you think they could shove out with the inside cam showing an oem interior, minus the seat. It has a roll cage. Lexi rear windows? Maybe, how many seconds tho?

Your suspiciousness, until now has no reason to exist other than to be a contrarian.

The RS presents more drag than a GT3 and actually has 'too much' downforce for it's own good.

But the 991 RS would need the new mpsc2 N1 and the 'faster track' your calculations are not that far, so 6 seconds from 2015 to 2017 on the track and 2 on the tires, this lap time would be possible. Aero upgrades and who knows.

Bet RS on its stock tires beats this time.

Maybe drivers are also getting better.

Regardless of the car, pavement, tires, etc.

^^Bet it will not

The 991 RS already has the new new N1 tyres fitted from launch. They have been absent in 245/305 GT3 sizes until now. Also I dont think the work on the track probably amounts to more than 1-2s in the hands of a pro driver, probably less.

My personal view is that they have found more mid-range torque (than the RS) in this "new" engine and the better N1 rubber compound is also helping along with a more aero (and very small drag penalty), which becomes very useful when you consider the average speeds of corners at the Ring. All thes ethings plus a cold dry morning and a focused driver have come together to shave a considerable time off the previous record. Whether its possible to get within even 5s of this by a mortal is unknown, but Im sure Manu will give it his best shot later this summer ;-)

Torque and power curves previously posted put the .2 4.0 and .1 4.0 nearly identical. My guess is the great Ring time was due to perfect conditions which the RS did not have, less aero on the .2 so less drag (Ring is very high speed circuit) and new Cup 2's.

Evo's non Ring track times put the two cars within 2 tenths of second.

And the driver never shifted near redline.
Maybe the 9000RPM auto shifts aren't the fastest for him either.

Best laptimes aren't set in auto.

I think the redline is just right in the RS, I shift slightly short of them for the best laptime.
Once in a while I hit the rev limiter but 3-4 only, 2-3 revs high enough, I short shift a bit, 3-4 is just right 4-5 I short shift a bit.

I do not believe they need to go "looking" for anything. Porsche has gone to great lengths to limit mid range torque in order to produce the experience they're looking for. That "top end rush" over the last 2k rpm is experienced only because of the relative lack of lower end torque. Intake manifold diameter being on the large side is likely a main contributor- in the 997 RS 4.0 it was comically larger than the 3.8 in order to prevent it pulling like a turbo-diesel truck.

Keep in mind that in the 991.2 GT3 they have an engine with all the advantages of the RS but with higher RPM potential (more power), less friction (more power and torque), a multi-stage intake (more torque), solid lifters (more power and torque due to more aggressive cam potential) and higher compression ratio (more power and torque). The only way it doesn't make significantly more power everywhere is because that's the way they want it.

Even with the same torque curve, however, the higher rpm will give the new motor more area under the curve in lower gears, so I do agree that's at least part of the advantage against the clock.

pete - my guess is that the best explanation would be that this engine IS actually more powerful than they are rating it, or to be more precise, the new engine is even more under-rated than the last one...

will be interesting to see dyno outputs... once again, hard to know for sure with so many interceding variables not controlled as to what is driving lap time differentials

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...457e75942a.jpg
07:12 it just feels good! Thank you Porsche :)
Goodmorning everyone and nice friday to you all Porschelovers!

Porsche/Michelin do the N rating differently even within the same tire family, i.e. Cup2s.

They have different 'N rating' depending on the sizing, 918/GT3RS, regular 911 and the GT4.

The N0 in the biggest size is only reserved for the 918, as they are ECO rated. They came out with a different compound and called that N1 for the GT3RS.

The N0 rating on the middle size (for 911s) are NOT ECO rated. They are the normal sticky versions. Same tires on the .1 GT3 and the 911R. The new GT3 is wearing an improved version of these, hence the N1 rating. And these N1s are more advanced than the GT3RS N1s.

A bit confusing at first but simple after one look at them more closely.

Can I ask what is so shocking that the next iteration of the GT3 is faster than the previous RS iteration.

Maybe I am wrong but is not that usually the case?

Is not the .2 RS going to be faster than the .2 GT3?

Why can not people accept this and move on

Do not worry- RS values will hold. The car is worth MSRP where prices will probably end up just as it should be. It it going to be a Collector's car??- I do not think so but i never thought they were Collector's cars but I do not follow the RS market because I never care about any Porsche being a Collector's car

Conditions look optimal, I had my best times in the RS on a 45-50 degree F morning, sport cups have plenty of grip at those temps.

Curious. Where's the time for the 991.1 GT3 RS? The best time I see is 7.27 for the 997 RS 4.0.

https://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times-top-100/

I call foul on this...

The .2 GT3 had a persistent tailwind at all points on the track. We all know in the RS run there was a persistent headwind. Everywhere.

The flying insect population is down 8% this spring. The reduced effect of bug splatter on aero is worth 1 second alone...

You can see at one point the driver tries to operate the headlight washers and no water comes out. We all know the RS had a full tank of washer fluid on its run

The oxygen content of the air is slightly higher this year due to denser foliage in the local area (mild winter). That's worth about half a second on an N/A around the ring

The driver had a Nature Valley bar in the glove compartment on the .2 GT3 run (original - not the chocolate one that has the weird powdery cocoa taste), but I'll point out that he had a full lunch pail on the RS run, including a juice box, carrot sticks, and a ham sandwich on marbled rye (crusts still on). Not only is this a weight penalty, but it wasn't secured in the back of the car and was rolling around. The lack of weight and moving CG on the .2 GT3 run was worth at least .4 of a second

The .2 GT3 has a magic passenger seat that disappeared, and reappeared, and then disappeared again. Also, it didn't have lumbar adjustment. Not only did the RS have lumbar adjustment, but the bag was inflated with particularly heavy springtime air

The driver had an artisanal beard for the RS run, and had a heavier Rolex. For the .2 GT3 run he barely had a moustache, was wearing a gen 1 Fitbit HR, and was also going commando.

^Makes complete sense!
:roflmao::burnout::roflmao: :thumbup::thumbup:

I know Pirelli made some big leaps in tires this year, their PZero mechanical grip increased by 7% 2017 vs 2016 same tire size. They also took weight out of tires, for example the 2017 488 Ferrari Challenge tires are 5% lighter than the 458 with a 15% higher contact patch due to increased size. No change in durability.

I don't have stats for Michelin, but I'm sure it is similar. They obviously improved the PSS enough to call it Pilot Sport 4S.

please pass the kool aid...

I am wondering how much better .2 GT3 time would be over the .1GT3RS if GT3 was dressed up with same tire size. Another 2-3sec?

I would agree...to me it's simply odd to see such a quantum leap with the stated specs of the cars being reasonably close. I would like to see this repeated or see the same driver under reasonably similar conditions run with a .1, .2 and RS with verified dyno outputs and equivalent tires.

The engineer in me would like to see the data or design/tuning parameters explained that have yielded such a large improvement. Hard to interpret or analyze anything with little detail and a one test experiment.

Lars Kern is as I understand since last year new Porsche development driver. Taking Timo Klucks jobb since then.
I am not surpised this car is fast, also as others also mention nur is a faster track today. Very much the fast flugplatz-swedenX section as Grants picture show. Lars also drove the slightly tuned(not engine, only camber, tire, KW etc) by manthey tuned GT4 10 sec. faster than Porsche stock factory GT4 time.

The vanila 991 gen2 GTS was it not lappning 7.22 min in Porsche factory hands. Thats 2 seconds shy on 991 RS. Mind you 991 RS had a few damp areas on track when Timo Kluck set 7.20min lap.

Oh, MB AMG GT-R is way faster than this new GT3. Remember its 7.11 lap was no factory lap, Hence Mercedes use sport autos lap time from Christian G to market their car. Quit bold and I must say fair! For sure the MB factory got way faster laptime in the car than the 7.11 sport auto time. But to my knowledge they never let any time out.

I guess the manual GT3 will be 5-8 seconds slower than PDK on nur. Nothing but a blunt guess.

I am waiting for this car but no luck yet, I guess 2018 then..

Yes, very optimal conditions. And thats not luck, all factory know fastest laps are in these conditions. Mind you sport auto test on 991 RS was worst ever, it was 30+ degrees. Same when Sport auto did M4 GTS lap, 30+.

Then again factory also only do one lap on the tire. And they keep doing that to they get a fast lap.

Sport auto not like that, thats why MB Amg GT-R LAP at 7.11min is the real world test and cool of MB to let that market their car and not the factory time like Porsche and others use.

@Nur93 -How much faster do you think the ring is now compared to pre-changes?

Oh and I hope you get an allocation.. looking forward to your lap videos, :D

Where is that 'Oh no, not this **** again' meme when ya need it...

FFS, that Manthey car was not a near stock GT4 with a few tweaks. It had over $10k of aftermarket suspension and other parts, that easily accounted for the time delta.

And I don't know Lars from a hole in the wall, but I'd be shocked if there is a driver on the planet that could run the Ring in a Porsche materially quicker than Timo Kluck. His Ring times are typically faster than anyone else in the same car. Nobody's taking the same car and knocking 10 seconds off Timo Kluck's best time.

You forgot to mention that the .2 GT3 driver was on a strict diet losing 20 pounds and took a big dump that morning while the .1 GT3 driver was force fed a huge breakfast.

That was a grave miss on my part. I appreciate the correction.

I remember reading a Danish fly fishing blog that mentioned the above information was noted in the May edition of Architectural Digest. Or maybe it was Shape magazine... Anyway... Apparently it was a pancake breakfast... whipped cream and a side of bacon. Heavy, thick-cut bacon. The grease also affected his grip on the wheel and the gluten dulled his reactions. He didn't stand a chance...

But more importantly, is it worth you testing this theory for the 991.2GT3 on the Ring this year? I hear autumn is lovely.

Exactly. Because Porsche. I've always respected their engineering, but damn, their marketing/product strategy dept is even more impressive.

911 GTS was turning a 7:26, wasn't it? Also, where is the extra horsepower coming from in the MB? Those two points aside, I agree with you that it would help for MB to have a professional take the car around to find out what the real time was.

I'm still looking to hear anyone's thoughts on the difference in time the repaving gives. I wouldn't go so far as to say this is like a reconfigured track but it certainly makes the times apples to oranges.

It will be interesting if they don't get a similarly spectacular time with the RS.2

The tough part is once they go faster, and the leap is huge like this time, they can't undo it... and they always have to outdo themselves.

It's quite likely though that with the new ring layout being faster, that we'll see similarly huge leaps with other brands.. as an example, look at the Lamborghini Performante time handily beating the 918...

Impressive lap - very smooth - Impressive car:)

EVO also got .2 to run impressive time at Angelsey track. Seems like lots of improvements so looking forward to tracking it.

I would not dare to guess, thing is no matter its for sure faster Its nothing I could accually take advantage of. What I mean by that is I these days only hit a few laps one time of a year. It do not help us then. On the otherhand If you lap this track like every now and then like them development/racteam driver you you will easy take advantage of this.

thanks man, damn I would also want this to happen, I would have a stick only for the superior workout Sweet It give you on the Ring vs PDK. And the matcho factor:-), its harder to go fast with a stick, very much on nur. That challenge is fun:-)

I know 911 gen2 GTS Is 0,5 seconds faster around short hockenheim than 991 GT3 RS(same driver)

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3657988982.pngI recall 911 GTS was only 2 sec slower than 991 GT3 RS on Nurburgring. (Factory 7.22 for 911 GTS vs 7.20 RS)

Only problem with GTR 7.11 lap was that Sport Auto mentions the tires they used are special Cup2 tires that are more like slicks and cost 3950 EUR a set according to their article.

The car is significantly slower with ordinary Cup2s the car comes with.

And you cannot spec the special Cup2s for the car easily. Same with Lambo Huracan Performante. Record time was driven with special Trofeo Rs, but if you see the catalogs, only PZero Corsa is offered.

Yes, I know about these tires. But me personally dont see It as a issu at all If its stock with the car. Like you can accually order them. As I understan you can do that.

As I recall even the Corvette Z06 use somthing simular in tire compound like Amg did.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...956363005a.png
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3e5423f7de.png
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...9f2dc7686d.png

[QUOTE=Nur93;14164124]Yes, I know about these tires. But me personally dont see It as a issu at all If its stock with the car. Like you can accually order them. As I understan you can do that.

As I recall even the Corvette Z06 use somthing simular in tire compound like Amg did.


I have the same tyre in my z06 from factory and the lateral grip (off throttle) is unmatched on the road at least (haven't tracked with them) compared to my gt3.

On throttle they are completely opposite to the gt3, i guess 650 ft lb torque will do that to any car. Visually the rear tyres look closer to slicks compared to gt3 michelin rears. Also they are run flats zp tyres.

Z07 track guys please chime in here??? Don't worry we're not looking for a "heated debate" (pun absolutely intended:roflmao:)

Seems like a stock tire for the car. I am sure we will see this compound to reach out to the others, If thats not the case alredy. That big development cost would not be taken If this compound only should reach the GT-R. My guess anyway. Michelins market people is not different to other market people. I mean we read this and think, wow. But its accually what they said before about cup tires. Sure its progress in cars, but also tire. So pretty soon all ride this compound i guess?

What cup tire is on Porsche new GT3 car? Anybody know?

http://www.michelin.com/eng/media-ro...cedes-AMG-GT-R

Looks like same tire on these 2 cars. Not only size but same cup tire.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ede16725ff.png



[QUOTE=fun2k;14164320]https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...3eb9380428.pngSeems to be same tire or what do you think?

I think two sets of tires are available. When car manufacturers play games like this, I have no respect for their cars.

1. The regular Cup 2 tires available from tire dealers.
2. The special compound Cup 2 tires that were used to set the lap time are only available from Mercedes dealers for 3,950 EUR.

This tire Is the new standard cup tire, (lets play with that thought) It will soon be on all cars. At a limited time Mercedes can ask this but in the near future I guess not. This tire is on the vette alredy, and soon everywhere:)

michelin and mb talk lound about a special developed tire for the Amg GT-R, and sure the worked in pair. Like this is more marketing than anything Porsche(they are also god on marketing)
anyway now all talk about this magic tire...but is this not the new normal cup tire that take over from cup2(we can play with that thought)

I recall a simular thing in the past, cup 1 to cup 2
:-)
this magic tire alredy sit stock on the vette, and many more to come i guess.
what ever the marketing game tell us about this magic tire, It will be like always. The big part of the average joes that drive this tire in the future vs the old cup2 will not even make a difference around any given track that trackday.
Then there are a few that will, If the track is Free of cars, and all other factors is sweetspoot(like they never are:-)

ahh, just Looking at this in another way..

Remember the Nissan GT-R Nismo

At least it sounds like you can buy the tires, though I agree it'll tilt comparison tests in Mercedes' favor until they become available on other cars.

Back in 2000 I ran the "One Lap of America" race with a friend. Among the 100+ entrants were two tire test engineers from Michelin. They ran a Viper fitted with what appeared to be normal street tires everyone could buy, but had in fact come directly from Michelin. They destroyed the field, including other pro drivers in on paper faster vipers. The guess was those tires were worth over 2 seconds per lap...

Since then every set of tires used in One Lap must be bought at tire rack and come marked for the race.

Sounds like Mercedes may have picked up a similar trick. At 4k per set you might as well be using hand-cut Hoosiers.

I think these were hand cut Michelin slicks. By the way, it is great to see you back.

Here was the Porsche tire i guess is on GT3, a futher improved tire vs previus.
If anything tilt comparison its Mb use slower sport auto driver vs Porsche factory driver.:-)
Mb factory driver have alredy Done a lap and its closer to the 7min mark.(but they dont let that out, they use sport auto to communicate their speed, wich is not all a bad idé. Its more the real world preformace)

(sport auto is always nowdays with Christian 7-8 seconds slower than factory in them faster cars It seems, like 991 GT3 RS etc.)

http://www.tyretrade.ie/index.php/mi...-911-gt3/16943

[QUOTE=fun2k;14164320]The Cup2s that come on the Z06 are a special tire, specific to that car. They are very good, very fast on track, grip like crap on street...they need to be heated up. When I spoke with a Michelin engineer at BMW O'Fest at Laguna Seca last year, he told me GMs spec on this tire was one tank of gas! That's two track sessions ladies and gents! I've found that I can get about 4 track days out of a set. I will also note that at same event, my instructor that was driving a 991.1 GT3 was shocked at how much grip there was in the car/tire.

Yes, its the same special:-) tire (marketing, marketing)that are on Mb, specally developed for what car:-). Was It Corvette or Mb, o well its the same compound and more cars are to get this in near future i guess.
Its a damn grippy tire on the wette I also hear that👍🏻


[QUOTE=Hit Apex;14164518]

Manthey racing achieved 1.05 at Hockenheim with a modified 991 RS.
Only difference from stock was 3 way suspension and magnesium wheels, same tires same engine same driver -2.7 sec difference on a short track.

I guess porsche left a lot on the table with the gen 1s in just the suspension. Hard to believe unless manthey are lying to us.

and I believe a 7:22 on the optional Corsas... on the re-paving, from what I can
see its a couple of corners ... over 22km its not going to make that much difference, this is all about the improvements on the car...

for example, he crests Schwendenkruez at 252km/h ... that's *fast* also I note
that he did not lift before turning into kesselchen ... that's balsy ... and probably somewhat enabled by the new aero...

If the unsprung ratio is correct (1lbs removed unsprung = 20lb sprung), the time is a lot related to the wheels and the fact that it has PCCB as it will be a reduction in the order of a big fat man. Plus that tray from the 991 R, people really don't give that little piece enough credit (as they don't give to the side vents on the RS to the amazing grippy front).

In terms of lap time the above is wildly optimistic.

It actually is and I was wrong regardless because there isn't a fixed ratio, apparently a 1:7 is more realistic. Now I actually have gone into it, because I was never sure about the exact ratio.

But just for info: 40lbs savings on PCCB + 20lbs on wheels.

P.S. The Formula from the very nice bimmerforums forum.

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...Dead-Weight&s=

I'd take issue with 7:1 as well; really need to isolate where you're losing the mass.

PCCBs save 37 lbs (new) when you consider the weight of the pads. More like 30 lbs average with both rotors half worn, and the gyroscopic effect is less because the iron rotors are smaller diameter. I did a write up here a while back that's relevant. The whole thread is best to read for context, but this post crystallizes the issue:

https://rennlist.com/forums/gt4/8759...l#post12319468

Interesting this article says 8 out of 10 GT3's coming off the lines will be fitted with this tire. I wonder if the other 20% are fitted with a new version Dunlop? Anyone?

You are correct

Me too :). If you do the calcs for a wheel its about ~1.6 to 1 e.g. if your wheels were 10lbs lighter the apparent static weight reduction would be something like 16lbs.

In modern cars lighter weight wheels are more part of overall weight reduction and impact more on suspension response.

People got caught up in this stuff in detail when they were racing light weight 80hp sports car a long long time ago. :) the 20:1 ratio is a bit of an internet myth.

The speed of the GT3 and the time is no great surprise - Porsche recognise that if you want to improve a cars performance it has to be a complete process, they think like high performance engineers and not like value engineers e.g. lots of supportive incremental changes right through the car leading to greatly enhanced performance. They tweak everything. Look at the .1 to .2 transition on the S (steering, pdk, brakes, spring rates, helper springs, sway bars, tires, wheels, RAS, aero - let alone the engine - pretty much everything has been tweaked or changed).

Yes, thanks for the correction guys. 7:22 it is. They fitted a better tire to the car and it knocked 4 seconds off:

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...ps-ring-in-726

I'm still not comfortable though with the magazine's results around Hockenheim.

I'm beginning to think that new generation performance tires is skewing the perception of the performance potential moreso now than ever before. Just like we see more manufacturers throwing everything they have at their versions of the GT3 RS, it seems like tire suppliers are beginning to do the same. Why develop an insane track car and put runflats on it like Corvette used to do with the Z06?

The potential for noise in the lap times seems to be very much highlighted by the story Petevb alluded to above. When the current ACR Extreme is beaten by a stock Z06, I raise an eyebrow. The Viper's downforce is insane and its Kuhmos are very, very sticky (from what we know) so I would argue that a good (not even great, just good) driver should be able to make enough use of it to go faster than the Vette. And yet, that's not what we're seeing.

To bring this back on track, if MB is using the very best rubber possible, then to understand the true performance potential respective to a GT3, for example, you need to run them on the same tire and then on the best rubber available from the factory. Until then, this is more a tire manufacturer's marketing game than a car manufacturer's!

Another one to throw in the mix... glickenhaus car is an impressive achievement...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...e-and-scg003c/

Amg supertest from sport auto, If you like info on this tire Please read- they cover a thing or 2 on the tire..

SUPERTEST MERCEDES-AMG GT R WELCOME TO THE KING CLASS His North Loop round in 7.11 minutes was a first exclamation mark. After the Supertest, the MercedesAMG GT R is now on the front line in the Champions League. We do not want to subordinate to the popular North Loop blog BridgeToGantry.com of the British Dale Lomas, but its message reminds a bit of what is currently called "Fake News". What happened? After the Mercedes-AMG GT R on 4 November 2016 with a phenomenal Nordschleife round time of 7.11 minutes had voted the fastest standard vehicle of the Supertest-History, initially mentioned blog spread a false message. "AMG and sportauto cheered with slicks at the roundabout of the AMG GT R on the Nordschleife." Justification for BridgeToGantry.com? In our Youtube video of the fast lap of the GT R, they want to have a set of slick tires recognized in a picture sequence. Only when we put a close-up of the used and street-worn tires of the type Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 ZP into the net, the bubbling of the rumors culminated. BridgeToGantry.com ruled back - and did everything right. However, the idea that we had been doing things together with AMG and used Slicks in the Supertest round is as absurd as the thought of the relegation of Bayern Munich from the First League. Of course, we would never jeopardize our credibility and the independence of the world's highly respected supertest. Point. It is not only the sport tires! According to the motto "It can not be what is not allowed", it was probably difficult for some sports car fans to bear when a Mercedes turned the sports car world on its head. With its fabulous 7.11 minutes, the AMG GT R is now officially replacing the previous Porsche 918 Spyder in the Nordschleife toplist of the super test. Today, the new superstar from Affalterbach is back in the pit lane. After the surprise on the Nordschleife, he now has to move to Hockenheim. However, on the small course, the question is not only about whether the AMG can beat the front runner 918 Spyder, but also whether its lateral dynamics are attributable mainly to the extreme sports tire. Time for a comparison of the two tires available for the AMG GT R. The new cross-dynamics hero is delivered as standard with sports tires of the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 type. For an extra charge, AMG offers the so-called AMG-Track tire. The latter sports tire called the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 ZP, the GT R, as mentioned at the beginning, also carried on during the Supertestunde on the Nordschleife in November. Compared to standard Cup 2, the option tire not only has a 10-millimeter wider format, but also a stiffer design, a special blend, a 60% reduction in front and a negative 40% reduction in the profile. The track tire has a road approval, but requires a single purchase, but is included in the price of 3950 euros. Boxenampel green, initially the Überflieger today with the serial Cup 2 to the start. A warm-up round, then a short pit stop for air pressure correction, then attack - the standard Cup 2 is comparatively faster on temperature and builds its grip level more quickly than the ZP tire. The Series Cup-2 therefore offers a good compromise between everyday convenience and race track performance. With a lap time of 1.07.4 minutes, the GT R already catapults under the top 5 in the Supertest top of the small circuit. Pit stop and tire change: The extreme sportsman does not develop his full potential for lateral dynamics but with the special Cup 2 ZP sports tire. Since the mixture of the option tire works in a considerably higher and narrower temperature window, AMG recommends this dry-grip optimized sports tire primarily for the racetrack. The ZP tire is not only very conscientiously heated up for the trip to the border area, but also the very pronounced peak of the pneus must be considered. After two warm-up sessions, the first flying lap must sit perfectly on the small course, otherwise the absolute best time can not be achieved with this tire set. Already on the second flying lap, the maximum grip level again decreases slightly and the lap time is about three tenths of a second slower. Subsequently, the ZP oscillates at a constant level. If you are a friend of this racing-like working behavior of the ZP sports tire, the GT R provides a great dynamic experience in the cross-country. When braking, he scores higher with the ZP compared to the normal Cup 2 with even higher.

NÜRBURGRING NORDSCHLEIFE Measuring conditions: air temperature 4 ° Celsius asphalt temperature 8 ° Celsius air pressure atmosphere 1015 mbar air pressure tire (front / rear) 2.2 / 2.2 bar (warm) SECTOR TIMES Length of the track 20.6 km SECTOR 1 1.21.2 min Start line T13 to bridge exit Aremberg, 3850 m SECTOR 2 1.39.2 min Bridge exit Aremberg to Item 122 Exit Ex-Mühle, 4235 m SECTOR 3 1.39.1 min Item 122 Exit ex-mill until sign Hedwigshöhe exit Hohe Acht, 4825 m SECTOR 4 1.49.9 min Shield Hedwigshöhe exit High Eight to metal bridge output gallows head, 4846 m SECTOR 5 0.41.5 min Metal bridge output gallows head to initial target curve old north loop, 2844 m 20 FROM MAXIMUM 20 POINTS Compared to the GT S, the GT R is 25 seconds faster. For this fabulous time is above all the grandiose drivability in the border area is responsible. In addition to the new helical gear, the rear axle steering, the sports tire with a high grip level and the imperceptibly regulating traction control, the active aerodynamics also contributes to the high driving stability on the north loop. In addition to the high mechanical and aerodynamic grip level, the newly designed steering system also has a positive effect. The hydraulic steering reacts precisely to the center position, but not as sharply as in the GT S. BEST LIST NORDSHOPS The competitors in comparison 1. 7.11 Mercedes-AMG GT R 2. 7.13 Porsche 918 Spyder 3. 7.22 Ferrari 488 GTB 4. 7.24 Gumpert Apollo 4. 7.24 Porsche 911 GT2 RS 6. 7.25 Lamborghini Aventador LP 700-4 7. 7.28 Lamborghini Huracán LP 610-4 7. 7.28 McLaren MP4-12C 7. 7.28 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 11. 7.32 Audi R8 V10 Plus 11. 7.32 Porsche 911 GT3 14. 7.33 Ferrari F12 Berlinetta 18. 7.34 Porsche 911 Turbo S

So, this magic tire is 1 sec faster on 2.6km short hockeheim, thats alot! But the average Joe driver will hardly be faster on this tire on the average trackday!

So Then again the same thing factory drive vs Christian lappning. Mb use Christian to lap. And he is way slower than Amg factory driver. Porsche use factory drive. I guess this thing is like even things out then.

TECHNOLOGY-SPOTLIGHT: TIRING COMPARISON CUP 2 CUP 2 ZP The graphic shows the fastest lap times, which can be achieved both with the standard tire Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (green line, 1.07.4 min) as well as with the so called AMG-Track tire of type Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 ZP (red line, 1.06 , 4 min) has been tested on the Small Course. In comparison, the option tire features not only the 10-millimeter wider format, but also the stiffer construction, its special blend and the reduced negative portion of the profile. The significantly higher grip level with the ZP is reflected in the consistently higher curve velocities and transverse acceleration values. Also the deceleration values ​​are clearly higher with the ZP tire

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...36e5146ceb.png

HOCKENHEIMRING SMALL COURSE Measurement conditions: air temperature 13 ° Celsius asphalt temperature 23 ° Celsius air pressure atmosphere 1031 mbar air pressure tire (front / rear) 2.1 / 2.1 bar (warm) 20 FROM MAXIMUM 20 POINTS ESP off, race mode active, adaptive damper in "Sport Plus", traction control in stage 6 (three yellow, three red LEDs) - that is the recipe for the fast lap with the Mercedes-AMG GT R on the small course in Hockenheim. Almost the new cross-dynamics superstar from Affalterbach had also pushed the reigning top rider Porsche 918 Spyder. Also on the angled course the GT R scores with its easy controllability in the border area. The AMG GT R, with its fantastic grip level, shines both when braking, while steering as well as when accelerating under load. No unwanted side-steps or noticeable load-bearing suspensions spread mistrust. The V8 biturbo also contributes to the high driveability with its good response characteristics and its linear performance. In the AMG GT R, one never feels overwhelmed by the engine power at the limit. The GT R is well-motorized - but not over-powered. BEST LIST Hockenheim The competitors in comparison 1. 1.06.3 Porsche 918 Spyder 2. 1.06,4 Mercedes-AMG GT R 3. 1.07.0 Ferrari 488 GTB 4. 1.07.2 Gumpert Apollo 5. 1.07.5 Lamborghini Huracán LP 610-4 7. 1.08.5 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 11. 1.08.7 McLaren 650S 11. 1.08.7 Porsche 911 Turbo S 16. 1.09.4 Audi R8 V10 Plus 20. 1.09.6 Mercedes- AMG GT S OTHER MEASURING DATA DYNAMIC AND WIND CHANNEL 36-meter slalom 146 km / h The grip level of the Michelin Cup 2 tire with the addition "ZP" is currently not to be exceeded with road approval. This is of course only true if the tires have been brought to operating temperature beforehand. At these speeds, the high output on the rear axle is also noticeable. The GT R steers well, goes slightly crosswise during load changes, but remains well manageable at any time. LATERAL ACCELERATION 1.70 g Who would have thought that a tire-like tire would ever reach such transverse acceleration values? The high mechanical grip level of the AMG GT R is responsible for the almost incredible lateral acceleration of up to 1.7 g. The Michelin tire Sport Cup 2 ZP sports tire, which has been optimized for drygrip, plays a major role in this. EVASIVE TEST 157 km / h In the escape test with the short, hard steering pulses, the AMG requires a slight load change for a better deflection behavior. The following light quarries are easy to handle, but the alley width is simply not enough. The noticeable and visible body alignment points to a somewhat softer, north-loop-optimized chassis tuning. WIND TUNNEL Vehicle face area (A): 2.23 m2 Air drag coefficient (cW): 0.35 Air resistance index (cW x A): 0.79 The aerodynamic grip in comparison to the AMG GT S has been improved thanks to the extensively modified aerodynamics, which include, among other things, an active aero profile in the underbody and the air control system "Airpanel" (electronically controlled slats behind the front apron). Lift front axle at 200 km / h 33 kg Output rear axle at 200 km / h 54 kg

Thank you very much for posting Nur!

Still faster then and GT3RS on either tire then.
Looks like the GT2RS will beat it but will cost double.

The GT R is a Bargain at GT3 pricing.
Much more entertaining and better value for the occasional track guy.

Reading the above it does not sound to me like Mercedes used the "new" version of the Sport Cup 2 at all. Instead it sounds like an option tire that's tuned to virtually ignore streetability. Wider, higher and narrower temperature operating range, run flat... to me that says ride comfort, wet performance, cool weather performance and tread life are all compromised.

As a result the tire is nearly 1 second per minute faster, for a likely 6 second advantage on the 'Ring. Nice data to have, and thanks for posting, but my takeaway is that Porsche should start selling Hoosiers at the dealer to level the playing field... Which in not a terrible idea actually. I'd love for Michelin to work up 2 compounds, one for autocross and the other for the big track, with comfort and wet performance thrown out the window...

With that in mind: per the above the AMG GT R is faster than both the GT3 and the 918, and I completely agree*. I wonder how Porsche will respond?

Thanks Pete. Great post on the small PCCB differences. Further validation of my decision to spend my money on track days, not on PCCBs. :thumbup:

I think 5:1 is a common approximation, and times all 4 wheels... you get 20:1 in total... maybe that was where the erroneous ratio came from. But definitely depends on how far from the center... lighter tires make a bigger difference than lighter lug bolts.


Damn, great info... worth ~6 seconds on a Ring lap.

Agreed, pending confirmation both of resale and durability on the track, especially with cooling issues as so many modern force-fed cars seem to have issue with. Here on CotA, I've seen just about every high end car imaginable succumb to heat one way or another, except for modern Porsches... and maybe miatas. ;-)

Agreed, it's a specific spec for that car... not a new "general production" tire for use on any car. Porsche could do the same moving forward, with their "N spec" ratings... such as a new SC2 "N2R" compound or similar.


When Porsche released this new GT3 lap with such a large differential over the previous version and the GT3RS, my immediate thoughts were:

1. They are raising the bar to becme more competitive with the cars of other manufacturers, which are getting very quick.
2. With the FeFi in question, the GT3RS also needs to step up the game a bit to fill in that upper echelon of performance.
3. Moreso, they are also raising the bar internally to make room for a faster GT4 product that isn't right up next to the GT3, but still competitive in the marketplace.
4. Plus, higher performance justifies higher pricing across the board.

Also interesting, even Porsche Corporate like AP is publicly suggesting that for track use, get the Steels...

technical info regarding the lambo aero solution...

interesting points:
-they use a tiny electric valve flap which opens and closes to stall the airflow to the wing, which is vastly lighter and more efficient than using hydraulics to move the entire wing or front spoiler.
-they say that they can reduce the amount of steering input by effectively squashing the inside of the car down during turns

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...ef6c7bda78.png

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...c3170f2681.png

small valve flaps inside the rear wing and front spoiler can quickly increase downforce and drag, or close to stall the wing and reduce downforce and drag.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...4016f70cf8.png

same happens in the front, without the use of complicated and heavy hydraulics to move large bodyparts like other manufacturers. they use a tiny valve to manage airflow instead.. surprisingly understated and smart on the part of lamborghini.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f86a9e6d52.png

variable left to right control on the rear helps the car stay flatter in corners, and lamborghini says reduce the amount of steering input.

That is Fast!

Cool air -> More downforce

Ive heard that when they run the 991 GT3 RS it was so hot that they where afraid that the car would take off.

Despite what AP may or may not say...Porsche sets all of their best Nurburgring lap times on PCCB (see above), all of the 991.2 GT3 at press track events have PCCB, all of the GT cars I have seen/driven at PEC had PCCB...

Yes, its was accually also 30 degrees. Even It suffer but not as much as 2x turbo M4 GTS (source sport auto)

I did just now drive my friend new carrera S, It its nice as you can not feel thats a turbo car. But its not the racecar feel you get in GTS. Still its an normal street Porsche, dang I like the new steerinwheel https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...74709b26c0.jpghttps://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...39b1893574.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...a6e146c22d.jpgI want my GT3 gen 2 now Please ..

Do you have an allocation? Damn im looking forward to see you lapping that car on the norschleife!!

I have been on that list long, but its no luck yet. I am sure It will be 2018. I am sure It will be fun driving a stick shift again👍🏻

Not sure if you're serious? If so someone was pulling your leg.

A 50 degree F increase in temperature has the same effect on air density as a ~2500 ft increase in altitude. This hurts downforce slightly but the bigger impact is on engine power (both air in the cylinder and effective compression ratio are reduced) and tire temperature.

Airplane wings work the same as car wings. When air temperature increases landing speeds get fractionally higher (as with altitude) but the plane isn't going to drop out of the sky. I can image the car feeling lighter over rises it was previously nailed down to, but in reality the effect would be fractional.

:) not about the take off

I did read Kobalt as just being Iroic...due to the fact I told sport auto did say M4 GTS did suffer in the 30 degrees (as termal load was great on engine even its waterinjection)

If some one want me to post the full text from Sport auto supertest on 991 gen 2 GTS, just say so.

Let s be honest there s no real reason for .2GT3 to get such a better Ring time than a .1RS

the only reason is the AMG GT R sportauto 7.10s laptime

but i could care less i like the .2GT3 engine even if it is slower on Ring

The part that stands out to me is how stable GTR is on this brutal track compared to this video with same driver.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...n-a-viper-acr/

Yes please ;-)

SUPERTEST PORSCHE 911 CARRERA GTS TO BE OR NOT TO BE? Until now, the elders with GTS logo were more distinguished by their chic look than by a real performance gain. Only nice or faster? The current Porsche 911 Carrera GTS in the Supertest. Oh, again a 911 in the Supertest, what is new this time - other exhaust hoods and black wheels? ", Asks a test driver of a Bavarian automobile brand smiling, when I open up with the Porsche 911 Carrera GTS at the Nordschleife. The subliminal criticism: You are presenting too many Porsche in the Supertest, and at most too many Porsche in the whole issue. A topic, to which we also sometimes receive, as in the current issue, reader letters. And so now again a Porsche in the Supertest and also an Elfer variant. Stop, dear critic, the 911 Carrera GTS is the first Porsche in the Supertest in seven editions. Mercedes-AMG GT S, Ferrari 488 GTB, Ford Focus RS, Honda NSX, Aston Martin Vantage GT8, Mini JCW Pro, Mercedes-AMG GT R - Supersportcars, compact sports cars, sporty small cars, a bigger mix of different brands and vehicle categories is currently underway Superstest hardly. It is also not to us that some vehicles simply do not want to find the way to the Supertest. The Supertest of the Corvette Z06, which has now lasted for two years, is but one example. Other test cars, such as the Ferrari F12 tdf, are canceled directly, or it remains with monthly and unfortunately usually unsuccessful e-mail correspondence. At this point, I would also like to thank the press department in Zuffenhausen and its test car management. If you ask for a test car, you get it promptly and without major problems made available. Lift the 911 world out of the hunt Even the Porsche critics will have to admit after this supertest that this 911 Carrera GTS absolutely rightly found the way into the Supertest. And he was not really on the Supertestliste. As already described in the comparison test with the Corvette Grand Sport in the last edition, the abbreviation GTS in the modern era was rather a shadow of his glorious racing sport with the legendary Porsche 904 Carrera GTS from the 1960s. GTS in the present, this has always been a clever sales process to maintain sales after a certain production cycle. And so get in nice regularity any Porsche models, whether Panamera, Cayenne, Macan, Cayman, Boxster or even the 911, the GTS logo to the tailgate popped. For the first time, Porsche presented the Elfer 997 series with the GTS logo in 2010. No question, the GTS special models of the Elfer looked quite well, but did they also have a value added from a performance perspective? A little retrospect in the test history: In sportsauto-Heft 4/2011, the 408 hp strong 997 Carrera GTS showed a lap of 1.12.9 minutes in Hockenheim, five tenths of a second faster than the then 385 hp strong 997 Carrera S. The last 911 Carrera GTS with 430 hp strong naturally aspirated engine from the first 991 generation, on its two appearances (sport auto 2 and 9/2015) with lap times of 1.10.8 minutes and 1.11.7 minutes, the 400 hp strong basic model Carrera S (1.10, 4 minutes). Conclusion: The performance gain behind the abbreviation GTS was so far rather manageable. And then came the 17th March 2017: Hockenheim, 11.46 clock, the current 911 Carrera GTS runs in 1.08,0 minutes around the small course and lifts the 911 world from the angling. Thus, the GTS was faster than any series-8, which has so far covered our reference track with us in the test and Supertest. No 911 turbo (best time so far 1.08.2 min), no GT3 RS (best time so far 1.08.5) and also not the legend GT2 RS (best time 1.08.4 min) laid such a round time, like the crimson painted 911 GTS. Already when rolling back from the fast lap to the pit lane was clear, this 911 has earned itself after the short program in Hockenheim also the Kür auf the Nordschleife. While the rear-wheel-drive driver is taking the road towards the Nordschleife under the wheels with the full comfort of the suspension, there is ample time for a performance. Like all GTS models, the S-GO 4064 also carries the bodywork of the Carrera 4 with the wheel arches on the rear axle, 44 mm wider. In front, the GTS is recognizable by the new sport-design front skirt with larger air openings and the black spoiler lip. The Sport-Design exterior mirrors feature a black mirror base as well as lettering on the doors. At the rear, the GTS not only betrays itself by the typeface, but also by the darkened taillights, the black tailpipes as well as an air inlet grille with black painted strips. Shines with thrust: 450-PS-Biturbo Let us come to the technique, the lowest

^Gotta love Google Translate :)

Thanks Nur93!

Let's get to the technology that's underneath. Like its predecessors, the current GTS is also showing a moderate increase in performance. Compared to the 420 hp Carrera S, the three-liter six-cylinder with twin turbocharging now has 30 hp more. New turbochargers are responsible for the performance. The GTS turbochargers have a larger turbine wheel diameter (48 instead of 45 mm) and a larger compressor wheel diameter (55 instead of 51 mm) compared to those of the S-model. In addition, the maximum charge pressure has been increased from 1.1 up to now up to 1.25 bar. Short data comparison: The acceleration shows that it is not only the performance that has helped the GTS to its transverse dynamic heights in Hockenheim. At 100, the newcomer sprints a tenth of a second faster than the 991.2 Carrera S in the Supertest (see sport auto 6/2016). Up to 200 km / h the GTS is nine-tenths of a second faster with 11.9 seconds. The Biturbo boxer shines above all through the thrust in the low speed range and its homogeneous power development over a wide speed range. He does not come quite close to the lusty-looking last suction engine GTS with sports exhaust system, however, from an emotional point of view, but the Elfer community does not have to make a memorial day when the biturbo turns up today. The Biturbo-GTS also carries the sport exhaust system as standard. So that the boxer skirt penetrates a little bit more unfiltered to the ear, the development team also reduced the insulation of the GTS. O-Ton Porsche: "The insulation has been reduced as a weight and emotionalization measure in the area of ​​the wheelhouse, seat bottom, convertible top shelf, B-pillar, rear end plate, rear side of the fund and in the top-tether area." Weight reduction: 1.1 kilograms. Next time please without resets With a weight of 150 kg, the GTS is even two kilograms lighter than the 991.2 Carrera S from the Supertest 2016. Thanks to the optional sports seat seats with shells made of glass and carbon fiber reinforced plastic (minus 14.4 kg compared to the Seriensitz) and the Ceramic brake system PCCB (minus 11.5 kilograms versus the steel brake), all registers were pulled by weight with this GTS, in order to save unnecessary pounds. Halt, not all: Exclusively for the GTS, there is also the free option called "Removal Rear Seat". As the name suggests, the 2 + 2-seater is then a pure two-seater. Without emergency seats, the GTS in the rear area leaves a bit of GT3 ambience, in which also the rear view only falls on the covered middle tunnel. The option "Abandoned Rear Seat" would have saved 7.6 kilos again, and the current GTS test car would have been a member of the "Under 1500 kilo club". Had, if, - arrival north loop, here are no excuses. Before the ride over the Eifelachterbahn quickly change the Schalensitz for the race course visit. While the sports seat seats fit well in the day and seat position even large persons in everyday life, the sitting position with helmet is then a bit too high. Carefully pull out the plug with the cable for the seat heating and then remove the seat cushion completely. Without a seat cushion, the seat position also fits perfectly with the helmet. After the driver's seat still nimbly the driving programs of the GTS adjust. Turn the steering wheel to "S +". As with the Carrera S, four different modes are available with "Normal", "Sport", "Sport Plus" and "Individual". No matter whether it is a small course in Hockenheim or Nordschleife, the Sport-Plus mode is the best choice for the PASM shock absorbers, the active motor bearings and the PDK shift strategy as sportily as possible. As with the Carrera S, the Adaptivdämpfer can be driven not only in Hockenheim but also in the Nordschleife in the tightest coordination. 100-0 km / h: 30.6 m! Respect! Attack, already in the changing curves in the Hatzenbach can be a clear criticism, which made itself in the Supertest of the 991.2 Carrera S noticeable largely revised. In the 991.2 Carrera S, the electromechanical steering subjectively fell by the medium position by an too indirect, too comfortable feedback. In addition, the steering angle requirement was too large and the hand torque was too small. In everyday life, this steering coordination was quite comfortable, but on a race track or a country road, it subjectively lacked the crisp "Porsche feeling" of past times. As before in Hockenheim, the feedback of steering in the GTS now also feels more directly on the north loop around the medium. In addition, the holding forces were again somewhat tighter. The feeling is not deceptive: According to Porsche, a further development of the steering parameterisation was carried out at the GTS, in order to achieve a more binding hand due to a slightly raised hand torque

Steering feeling. Early 991.2 vehicles, such as the Carrera S from the Supertest, did not yet have this application. According to Porsche, this development has not only been integrated into the GTS models, but also in the other standard models. For the spontaneous steering behavior of the GTS, not only the steering engineers, but above all also the entire crew around the tire development deserve praise. The 911 Carrera GTS is equipped with the optional Pirelli P Zero Corsa N0 for the first time a real sports tire (see technical spotlight). On the factory, the GTS rolls on the Pirelli P Zero N1, which is already known by the Carrera S. Thanks to the very good grip level and the harmonious coordination of the new Pirelli sports tire on the ABS, the braking points can be set noticeably later than in the Carrera S with N1 series tires. Brake: With a phenomenal braking value of 30.6 meters from 100 km / h to 0, the 911 Carrera GTS is the best brake of the Supertest-history, pre-applause please! - the 991 GT3 RS (31.3 m) and the 918 Spyder (31.4 m). Hatzenbach, Quiddelbacher Höhe, airfield, approach to the Swede - compared to the Carrera S, the GTS on the top of the Swede crosses a bit more restless, but still remains well manageable after the landing. Compared to the Carrera S, the lift coefficients at the GTS are minimally worse (see box of the wind tunnel). In addition, the GTS at 266 km / h is also slightly faster than the Carrera S (264 km / h). Braking Aremberg, especially in the narrower curves, the GTS scores with its increased grip level. In addition to the new Corsa tires, the wider track on the rear axle (plus 26 mm compared to Carrera S) as well as the GTS standard centrifugal wheels of the Turbo S are responsible for the higher mechanical grip. On the front and rear axles they are half an inch wider than the C2S wheels, thereby increasing the tire contact area. Reinsert, and immediately be fast. "From the feeling I had a good feeling," said once footballer Andy Möller. A legendary quote that fits well as a motto for the GTS. The test car, which is equipped with a 20mm suspension and a rear axle steering system, is equipped with a range of easy-to-navigate options, such as the PDCC-Wankassistenten, the PASM sports suspension, and provides a high degree of confidence during the first Nordschleife rounds. The driving stability, for example in the fox tube (254 km / h) or on the ground waves at the end of the boiler at 245 km / h, is surprisingly high. But braking stability is also a decisive factor on the north loop. The GTS remains calm and stable on the brake on ground shafts (for example, before the section of the Metzgesfeld section) or before the torque curve. The double clutch transmission PDK also delivers its contribution to the simple drivability in the limit range. In sports-plus mode, the transmission adapts its shifting times and its shifting strategy perfectly to travel in the limit area. In other words, the talented pilot is hardly able to pull the gearshifts or operate the gearbox selector lever as perfect as the gearbox itself is at the right time for boosting and downshifting. So rather like the transmission the gear choice left. Fastest 911 on the Nordschleife Even after the Hockenheim round-trip, it was clear that the current GTS no longer only offers a purchase incentive for primarily optical reasons, but also wants to be taken seriously under cross-dynamic aspects. At the latest when the GTS hunts over the target line at section section T13, the eleven with the three letters underpins his claims. With a lap time of 7.24 minutes, he is not only just as fast as the 997 GT2 RS, he shares with the legendary Biturbo hero also the title of the currently fastest series-Elfer in the Supertest on the Nordschleife. Hat off, Porsche 911 Carrera GTS! ◾ Text Christian Gebhardt · Photos Hans-Dieter Seufert, Achim Hartmann (4) MY OPINION Quite honest, actually I had the GTS not on my Supertestjahresliste planned. 911 GTS, which for me has always been one, admittedly chic, Elfer, but from the performance point of view nothing could really be better than the "normal" Carrera S. The GTS was so far only a clever sales strategy to boost the 911 sales further , The longitudinal dynamics as well as the transverse dynamics gain of the GTS remained within an extremely manageable range for the suction engine models. With the 991.2 Carrera GTS this is finally different. In addition to the powerful pushing-on bit turbocharger, the new Pirelli option tires have also played a decisive role in the performance gain.

That's so much Nur93. That makes excellent reading. The new GTS is a definite step up. It actually is embarrassingly good and superiors even SportAuto

AZ

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...0b07fc170a.jpg

How representative usually are AZ's times (compared to things like Supertest and factory times)?

Its Horst Von Saurma driving, he was the man who always did sport auto superlaps since way back. Christian G took over after HvS at sport auto. Mind you, age do somthing to you in Regards of fast laptimes at Nurburgring and HvS is far from slow but ...I guess he Is slower these days than he was in the past.

Now this lap was 11 seconds slower than factory. Mindy you factory would never lap in this warm outside temp, and It do count for some seconds. A hot day Christian was also 8-9 seconds slower than factory in 991 GT3 RS and M4 GTS. Cold day Christian was only a few second of the factory pace in Porsche GT4, 991 carrera etc.

Also back in the days old chief editor at sport auto HvS was only a few seconds of the factory pace in Carrera GT. So they legend HvS can lap. Still age make you slower on the ring in the end.

Once back in the days at sport auto drivers training on Nurburgring I sat in as passanger when HvS lap the brand new on the market 997 GT3 RS. He was fast, even he held the steering wheel in a very strange way the whole lap.☺️

Thanks. I think HvS did 7:32 in 991.1 GT3, right? When he was 4 years younger ;). Don't know if the weather was cooler then though...

I am not sure how they get the BTG time. Like thats wrong. If you se Porsche factory lap on youtube GT3 gen 2 take 23 seconds on long straight(gantry to bridge). HvS could also manage that more or less. Not that hard to be full speed there even slightly left bend in 280km/h.

So take out 23 seconds from 7.24 min lap, thats 7.01min right. Well Sport auto and auto ZEITUNG and all others use sport auto standard when laping..Hence they do Not drive the ca. 200m at old T13 pit! So to make this a real BTG lap one must ad the time It take gen 2 GT3 to drive then 200m at T13 as you drive that 200m on BTG lap. Still Nobody know the time of GT3 gen 2 on them 200m..yet right, but we can take a simular power/weight car to see..

ahh its more or less 4-5 seconds depending on driver then I guess..
Hence BTG should be more or less ca 7.05min I guess.

My guess Is they just take out them 23 sec on long straight but forget to ad the 4-5sec on T13..

I know 15 degrees when HvS lap 991 GT3✌️

For sure these things do accually matter. BMW factory lap M4 GTS at optimal 13 degrees at 7.28min. Sport auto Christian lap M4 GTS at 30 degrees 7.37min. Its alot of seconds right there.

christian was only 3 seconds slower than Porsche GT4 factory, yes Christian was also then on optimal temp when he did GT4 test.

Thats why I always pay attention to what conditions they lap as It will matter.

Hehe, at the level age he is 4 years is alot. Its easy to get badly hurt down there, and the older people get they think that last second is not that importent☺️ In the end, but life is!

them younger hotshots do not think at al, about this, thats why they always are faster. But, in the end they will get old aswell☺️

15 degrees, very god driving conditions https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...f68792c55.jpeg

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SUPERTEST PORSCHE 911 GT3 JAUNDICE There are three keywords for the new Porsche 911 GT3: Suction engine, four-liter, ninety-one. What the extreme-eleven next to the magnificent high-speed boxer still has everything to offer, the Supertest reveals. The moment after which I signed the purchase contract for the new Porsche 911 GT3? Motorway A 5 near Bruchsal: At the front, a sober figure in digital numbers 312 km / h, at the rear celebrates once again a suction engine part - frenetic, screeching, metallic, omitted. The four-liter boxer in the GT3 rear: love at first sound. Porsche occupies a new niche, which was not a niche. Who still offers a suction engine today, which turns up to 9000 tours? This is a dying species.

For me, the new GT3 engine is currently the most emotional unit in the entire sports car scene. And the reason for buying a 911 GT3 is first and foremost the emotions - far ahead of the rationally measurable factors such as lap times, acceleration and braking values. Now, however, the word "supertest" stands above these lines - here the task is to eliminate the emotional and devote itself to the rational reasons. Is it really still there? Is the 911 GT3 still the best option for racing trackclubs? The fact is, the idea GT3 is now over the age. The fact is, however, that 18 years after the presentation of the first Porsche 911 GT3 of the Elfer series 996 the concept of the allegedly ultralative race track neunel is powerful under pressure. On the one hand, the competition is massively refreshed as recently seen in the outstanding super-test performance of the Mercedes-AMG GT R (Nordschleife: 7.11 min, Kleiner Kurs Hockenheim: 1.06.4 min); on the other hand, the 911 GT3 also gets off More and more fire. 911 GTS: How does the GT3 counter? In the last edition, the Porsche 911 Carrera GTS in the Supertest hovered over the northern loop in 7.24 minutes and burned a phenomenal lap time of 1.08.0 minutes in the Asphalt of the Kleine Kurs in Hockenheim. With a powerful 450 hp biturbo and newly developed sports tire, the GTS turned the 911 world upside down. Both the 991 GT3 of the first generation (Nordschleife: 7.32 min, Kleiner Kurs Hockenheim: 1.09.6 min) as well as the 991 GT3 RS (Nordschleife: 7.28 min, Kleiner Kurs Hockenheim: 1.08.5 min) 911 all-rounder called Carrera GTS. Suddenly there is an all-rounder in a smart elf robe, which is not only more everyday, but even faster on the racetrack than the hardcore models from the GT department.

The air for the GT3 has become very thin, but anyone who knows the development history of the GT3 and its makers knows that the wing-911 has impressively repulsed at the right time in times of supposed weaknesses. Nordschleife, April 28, 2017 - Porsche has rented the route exclusively for a day to drive the new GT3 for the first time at the Serientrimm on time. It is exactly the day at the end of which test and development driver Lars Kern the GT3 in an impressive 7.12.7 minutes over the ring. The conditions are perfect - outside temperature 10 degrees Celsius, asphalt temperature 14 degrees - it is better not for a free-sucking engine. Of course, Porsche shows us the GT3 with PDK transmission for the Supertest. How much slower is the handset than the PDK? Test and development driver Timo Kluck drove an impressive little difference of just three seconds on the 28th April between the two transmission variants in favor of the PDK. Thanks, Timo, then I have to do this now and can celebrate the GT3 hand switch on another test day. 14 clock, we turn the time before, after the Werkkutschern may finally the journalistenkutscher with the GT3 on the Nordschleife. There is no time to settle down. A first round of rounds will be followed by a rolling round with a set tire set. The Porsche team then switches to a new and pre-heated wheel set for a further time lap. More than two fast times are not on the agenda today for the Supertest. The Porsche best time of the GT3 was also driven with a new and pre-heated wheel set - due to the rather low outside temperatures, Porsche set on a similar procedure as Mercedes-AMG at the well-known super-race of the GT R. In the same way as the Porsche test drivers, we do not only compete with the same vehicle, which also set the Porsche best time, but also with a non-road racing racing seat from the 911 racing car GT3 Cup. Quite honestly, the feeling is already safer than having a Seriensitz with three-point gurge

T at 280 km / h or more by the linkknick at the Antoniusbuche. This seat is installed only in the north-loop measurement; all other Supertest disciplines are contested by the GT3 with the optional full-shell sports seat. At 17.5 kilos, the option available from the factory is, incidentally, nine kilos lighter than the Cup racing seat (see picture on page 10). The GT3 does not have a weight advantage because of the racing cup on the ring. Four liters instead of 3.8 liters How to get to Schwedenkreuz - you already know subjectively that there was a lot of changes in the rear of the GT3 rear. Compared to the first 991 generation, the current GT3 is no longer wearing a 3.8-liter six-cylinder boxer, but the four-liter model mentioned at the beginning. From 475 were now 500 hp rated power. Incidentally, on this day of the test, a trip also takes place in a 991 GT3 RS. Without If and But:

The four-liter of the new GT3 is also better than the four-liter of the 991 RS. The new four-liter is now screaming up to 9000 tours, while the four-liter of the 991 RS is "only" to a maximum of 8800 rpm. Both the lower speed range and 8250 rpm, where the maximum power is applied, the four-liter now turns more energetically. More about the four-liter development in the Spotlight technology. And the crest before the Swedish cross? Goes unloaded in the GT3 with 269 km / h, while the Carrera GTS at 266 km / h noticeably lacked aerodynamics here. In GTS, it was not always one hundred percent sure whether to "leave" on this section of the route. Effectively modified Aero The GT3 goes homogeneously out of the springs on the top and rear axles and remains stable and calculable at all times on the front and rear axles. Especially at the top of the cross, the GTS-Heck raised more compared to the GT3. In addition, - we call it, the "balance of flight behavior" was less favorable. In the GTS, the rear axle lifted more than the front axle. The subsequent landing also felt more restless. "The spoiler is 20 millimeters higher and 10 millimeters further back than the predecessor.

The wing profile has remained the same, but the entire rear cover is new. The rear edge, which must cooperate very strongly with the wing at the rear, is now also behind, "describes GT-man Preuninger the first part of the revised GT3 aerodynamics. Although the bodywork changes are moderate compared to the first 991 GT3, we remember Preuninger's words in the GT3 study in issue 4/2017: "The new GT3 achieves 20% more downforce than its predecessor. Thus, the car has similar output values ​​as the 997 RS of the second generation. At the front skirt now new airblades help, so that the flow laterally at the bow part lies laminar earlier. But the real breakthrough in aerodynamics comes from the new underbody. The second GT3 generation carries a 911 R-derived rear diffuser, which the first generation did not yet have. In terms of efficiency, however, we have been able to significantly increase the diffuser in the GT3. In the GT3, we have air deflectors behind the front wheels, which accelerate the air under the car towards the rear diffuser - and this makes it even better. " Hooks behind - not only for the new unit, but also for aerodynamic progress, there are plus points. And what about steering? It does not even need the north loop, it is exactly a country road curve, and GTS-interested change immediately in the Porsche Configurator - away from the 911 Carrera GTS, to the 911 GT3. This is exactly how the steering must be Even if the feedback on the center position, the manual torque and the steering behavior of the GTS steering through modifications as well as last but not least through the Pirelli sports tires feel better than the Carrera steering systems of the 991.2 series, the GT3 steering immediately makes you clear, As a really nice Porsche steering really has to feel. In my opinion, all 911 steering should feel subjectively like the GT3 steering - precise, but not too pointed around the middle position and above all with a sports steering wheel not too large steering angle.

The hardware of the current GT3 steering is almost the same as with the first GT3 generation, the software tuning of the EPS is now largely from the steering of the 911 R. And what has been done on the chassis side? While the spring rates on the front and rear axles remained unchanged, the interior design and tuning of the dampers were modified. In addition, the GT3 now also benefits from some parts, which until now only the 991 RS has worn. For example, the renal bearings of the longitudinal guide members are made stiffer. On the software side, the vehicle dynamics developers changed the coordination of the electronically controlled cross barrier and, among other things, increased the maximum barrier

moment. Traction control also benefited from a new vote. Although the GT3 does not have a visually appealing rotary knob in the racing look like the AMG GT R, the traction control can be seen in the first shutdown stage (ESC off). The vote has been so successful that neither the Nordschleife nor later in Hockenheim can be affected by any regulatory intervention, even though they happen in the background. The traction of the GT3 is excellent under load. So, but now times butter with the fish: Who drives in the border area easier quickly? 911 Carrera GTS or 911 GT3? Sorry Flacht, clear answer: The GTS. Especially on the north loop, the GTS scores with a high deflection stability. Against load changes, the GTS is almost immune, and you can brakes incredibly late in the curve. Even more hectic steering maneuvers the GTS unimpressed away.

Under load the GTS scores with satter traction, before it goes "on the very last groove" easily into the Untersteuern. In short, trust in the GTS is immensely high in the border area. And the 911 GT3? The good news for GT3 fans ahead: He is on the north loop much faster than the GTS. The criticism immediately afterwards: The GT3 could still be much faster than the difference in the Supertest of six seconds compared to the GTS. Why? There is still a potential improvement potential. The driving stability of the GT3 on the north loop is good, but only if you stick to some game rules. Game number 1: Never brake into the curve. As soon as the rear wheel is relieved during braking, and the steering angle is applied to the steering wheel, the GT3 rear pushes towards the outside edge of the curve. This behavior is particularly noticeable on the northern loop in the case of more aggressive braking maneuvers and late braking points, particularly on downhill braking zones. So rather brake earlier. Example: the narrow link curve at the stretch section weir soaps. GT3 at the border? The driver's car Game number 2: Do not drive too aggressively, otherwise the GT3 rear wheel turns faster than, for example, with the GTS or the AMG GT R. If you watch the video of the Super Tour, this driving behavior will be especially noticeable in the Mutkurve. The GTS remained extremely stable at 171 km / h, while the GT3 suddenly had its rear shifted and the pilot had to work with clear steering corrections. Therefore, the comparatively low cornering speed of 157 km / h. 3: Avoid load changes. Unlike the GTS, the GT3 is more responsive to load changes and is more manageable when it is driven as much as possible under train. Overall, the GT3 looks a bit too sharp for the Nordschleife. On the small course of Hockenheim the set-up fits better.

Whoever wants to be on the limit with boundless confidence and extremely easy to handle driveability (except for the top of the Swede's cross), takes the 911 Carrera GTS with sports tires or changes completely the brand. At the moment, no Porsche is approaching the driving stability of the Mercedes-AMG GT R in the border area. However, if you want a modern, very agile sports car that does not work with an almost digital good-nature, but asks the driver, he takes the new 911 GT3. In short, the GT3 is the driver's car. Dear forum clerk and tribal heroes: The GT3 runs exactly the way you always wanted it - challenging and exciting.

◾ Text Christian Gebhardt · Photos Hans-Dieter Seufert, Arturo Rivas (5) MY OPINION Congratulations on the "double pole": With the Porsche 918 Spyder and the 911 GT3 two Porsche now lead in the overall evaluation of the Supertest. At the beginning of the Supertest I had mentioned already, which would be the decisive reason for the purchase of the new GT3: the four-liter sucker. While more and more sports car manufacturers are replacing the suction engine units from their portfolio and are replacing them with biturbo engines, Porsche is happy to stick to this highly-emotive engine technology. Driving dynamically, the GT3 has made the jump expected by every GT model forward. The agility on the country road is fascinating. On the racetrack, driving stability in the border area is likely to be even greater.

Thanks for posting!

Nur93, thank you.

So in summary all you need to know is , as a drivers car the GT3 is still king.

Accually, The GTS carrera seems like a winner, Wtf that car Is one Sweet package Is It not..👍🏻

Enjoy..Glad you guys enjoy!
wtf, Timo Kluck was only 3 seconds slower In stick shift gen 2 GT3 vs PDK gen 2 GT3😳😂
I would have guess 5-8 seconds, damn.
Still Lars Kern did the lap officielly, Hence I guess he is faster then Timo

Wow - I love to hear that!!!

Well you could choose a GTS over a GT3 because it's softer, but you could choose fat chicks because they're softer too...

This means about 0.5 to 0.6 second difference at my local track (2.5miles and 2 minutes) for a very good driver.

Me to, I will have the stick shift GT3. Its the car for real men😜 the PDK is for grandma. My only issu whit them modern Porsche GT car are like hmmm..well Christian at the sport auto lap do not even pull the PDK paddel..well Its that and rear wheel steering and what not..like Its the Nissan GT-R of today🤔😂
So stick shift It is for me to ad some drama and challenge.

Its a close call, due to GTS seems so god. Remember on hockenheim Porsche GTS is only 1 tenths slower than PDK gen 2 GT3😱 But GT3 for me, reason is value should probably stay better(who knows but I guess) , engine sound and It will be more consistent over the full days on track.

We must remember that Porsche GTS drive on these new god tires...corsa N0

TECHNOLOGY SPOTLIGHT: NEW SPORT REARS In addition to the Pirelli P Zero N1 series (pictured left), the first and second generation models that use 20-inch wheels and the 245/35 R20 and 305/30 R20 tire dimensions are now available New sports tire Pirelli P Zero Corsa N0 (pictured right). The tire can be ordered through the Porsche centers. The biggest difference between the two tires is the profile design and the tread compound. Compared to the P Zero (approx. 7.9 mm profile depth), the profile depth at the Corsa (approx. 7 mm) was reduced in order to achieve higher tread rigidity and increased slip resistance. The optimal operating range at the Corsa's running surface temperature (about 20-50 degrees) is higher than the P Zero (10-45 degrees). The main focus of the Corsa development was the improvement of lap times and braking distances. Nevertheless, the Corsa also works on wetness as well as hardly any other sports tire currently. For this purpose, a new mixing technology is used, which is distinguished by a new generation of polymers.

:roflmao:

I like my cars the same way I like my women, tight and athletic.

Thanks for the info Nur93! :thumbup:

BTW,aren't you European? Don't you know that all Europeans prefer automatic according to Rennlist?! :icon107:

:cheers:

And the youtube lap of Sport Auto:

Where did you get that information?

It's in the translation to the Supertest above:

"Of course, Porsche shows us the GT3 with PDK transmission for the Supertest. How much slower is the handset than the PDK? Test and development driver Timo Kluck drove an impressive little difference of just three seconds on the 28th April between the two transmission variants in favor of the PDK."

@Nur93 -Thanks for posting that. Looking forward to your lapping videos! .. and new stickers? :D:burnout:

Impressive driving.

Thanks Nur93 for good input - as always!

Wish SportAuto would pop a set of the new N1 tyres on the .1gt3 and have Gebhardt run a lap of it now for a direct comparison between the actual chassis improvements between the 2 cars. Shame no mag ever seems interested in doing this sort of test.

Times below - Chris Gebhardt at the wheel

AMG GT R - 7:10.92
991.2 GT3 - 7:18.20
488 GTB - 7:21.63
991.2 GTS - 7:23.77
991.1 GT3 RS - 7:28.0
991.2 S - 7:34.0
NSX II - 7:36.0
981 GT4 - 7:42.0
718S - 7:47.0

Auto bild hitlist(M4 GTS lap1.33.17min)
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Some good reading from the German auto press - thanks for posting.

Surely the take home message has to be - the difference between these cars comes down to the experience and quality of the driver :) e.g. its not the car that makes the driver but rather the driver that makes the car.

However, I would say this - the AMG GT R is a brilliant offering from MB. From a pure performance perspective its a head and shoulders above the GT3 and GT3 RS.

Does anyone know details about the build for the yellow car in the video? What driver's sest is installed (looks like an FIA halo seat)?

Does the car have a/c? Is it similar to the RS built for the LL?

The car does indeed have a race seat for safety reasons, but it's is stated in the SportAuto article that it's 9kg heavier than the Porsche bucket. No mention of exact options, but total weight of the car with full tank and without driver is 1492KG. Camber is 1d42' front and 1d30' rear, so quite conservative, but suits the Ring.

Nur93 do you have the supertest and translation for the 991.2 gts for comparison? It would be greatly appriciated if you could post it her or at the 991 forum.

The translation from that test Is at page 19 In this thread I think. And here Is Pic.

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Thanks Nur93, i missed that one earlyer.

^^^just noticed the max lateral G for the GTS ~ 1.75g and 1.78g and routinely over 1.5g - the Corsas are basically delivering near track tyre levels of performance through corners. The best I can get out of P0N1 is ~ 1.42g.

Impressive, I wonder how long they last.

Also (see G for high lat-G NBr corners)

GT3 MPSC2--------GTS .2 CORSA-----S .2 P0N1
Ex-muhle, 1.65g-------1.50g----------1.40g
Bergwerk, 1.65g-------1.50g----------1.30g
Klostertal2, 1.55g------1.35g----------1.40g
S.schwanz, 1.70g------1.70g----------1.65g

The performance difference between these tires is larger than I expected - put the same tires on all three and it would get very interesting.

Due to the layout of Nur all car will pull higher than normal G:s , Hence we should pay attention to where on track. Like many bends got plenty camber/angle.

Hence karusell (they do not messure It) for instant you get Big G:s due to massive angle. Due to this Its better to see hockenheim G::s If Nur Is not familiar (as many bends there give higher G than normal bends due to angle/cambe on track.)

----------------GT3-----GTS------S
Sachskurve-1.45g-----1.50-----1.35
Senke-------1.25g-----1.25-----1.20
Querspange-1.30g----1.15-----1.15

So bees dick between the GT3 and GTS at Hock, put them all on MPSC2 and it will be close - more so than people think (at least in terms of a hot lap).

Thanks.

I just thought it was odd there's a hole in the dash where the infotainment should be. Made me think of the GT3 RS that was built for the LL.

Over one lap, indeed, it sure looks that way. But we'll wait and see what happens when they first get out on trackdays.

The Porsche gen 2 GTS is only 1 tenths slower than 991 gen2 GT3 at hockenheim. (Same driver) So they are more or less same same one fast lap.

On a hot lap they will be similar in mild weather. In hot weather the GT3 will be faster, allso after multiple laps. The main advantage the GTS has is torque.

Put the GTS on the same new N1 Cup2 and over the lap the GTS will be faster. Incredible how far the "regular" 911 has come in outright pace, and there is no denying that Porsche got it right with the 3.0T. Where would it be with a 500 hp tune? Ultimate compromise if you mainly want to drive on the road, but also take it to the track.

@drdonger, as you see we agree. Still I guess we cant pay to much attention to what them magazines make In terms of laptime. But rather what we can make out of the cars. Hence the GTS is that close to a GT3 its out of this world, its never been this close before. And alot of GT3 owners will notice this on track I am sure.

Hehe, agree, best ever compromise car ever .

And I am glad you get your soon:-)

The GTS is clearly better; everyone on the .2GT3 list ahead of me should switch their orders to GTS.

me2!

The dyno plots are very interesting - look at the difference in peak WHP - its actually not much.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlis...63536268ea.jpg

The data are from Sport Auto, WHP as measured on a MAHA dyno - the GT3 has peak WHP around 380 Vs GTS at 364 (when combined with run down losses engine HP as PS, GT3 500 claimed - 501 measured; GTS 450 claimed - 454 measured).

Also note the shape of the curves

Porsche is going to have to produce ever more magical NA engines in order to keep its NA cars ahead of its turbo cars.

What is certain is the 991 GT2 is going to be an absolute monster. To be honest its really a choice between apples (turbo) and oranges (NA) - they are both tasty :) but different.

Porsche has done a great job with the 3l twin turbo, its a great mill - very responsive and it delivers great performance. I have collected quite a bit of telemetry from my S and it really gets the job done (admittedly it does have RAS), all the usual bug bears are non-existent/imperceptible on track e.g. lag and throttle response etc. I have had quite few people comment on it (from track days) both in terms of how quick it is (and it is, timed by dorian, plus it is consistently quick), how hard it pulls and how effortless it looks round corners (even on P0N1 thanks to RAS).

I think the key is, this generation has really upped the ante - and the addition of RAS to the Carrera makes a very big difference to overall performance. In essence, you can in effect get a turbo charged GT3 (GTS) or a NA GT3 you can even get a reasonable range of tire choices. You can't lose :)

At the end of the day, the elephant in the room is where does Porsche go with NA - they have used all feasible tricks - compression ratio, various iterations of variocam, increased redline, increased capacity, DFI etc and must be close to maxing out a six cylinder boxer engine whilst maintaining reliability with sensible b and s. Interesting times.

I agree. Imagine the GTS with an exhaust and some MPSC2's? The gap is definitely closing due to the adding of Turbos. I really wish the GT3 had 20 ft/lb more torque throughout the rev range. At least they improved the overall torque curve.

Would have to be 4.3L for that and then wouldn't rev as high...

They could easilly have more than another 20 ft lbs through the low and mid range if they wanted, in fact I'd argue it'd be that way naturally if they were not intentionally limiting it. This is the nearly unavoidable result of stroking, as both engine sims and dynos will confirm.

When Porsche stroked the 997 RS 4.0 they found about 20 ft lbs over the 3.8 (and that car still has more low end torque than the new 9A1.5 4.0). When Sharkwerks did their 4.1 they used the 3.8 intake manifold rather than the 4.0's larger runners. As a result they found about 80 ft lbs over the 3.8. Results on stroked GT3 cup engines are similar. Torque is extremely easy to fined, but one can argue too much of it can actually ruin the powerband's feel. I'm sure that's the conclusion Porsche has come to.

But he said across the entire rev range - hard to do without more displacement in this case...

deleted

Top end is the only hard bit. Around 8250 they'll find ~10 lbs ft in the RS with no more displacement. 20 is pushing it, but technically I suspect it'd be possible- I'm betting the 9A1.5 has intentionally been limited to leave room for future improvement.

7:16.. yea, no words indeed! Except maybe "Holy crap"

Damn that was fast... in a Camaro. Shifting like a mad man, tires squealing. How many Red Bulls did he throw down before that?

Haha he was also where depends for a few of those high speed full pedal corners

Stickshift car:corn:
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Right on! Vindication for C7 Z owners....about time really.

GM Factory drivers should be able to extract even more time as it's clear the gear shifts weren't executed perfectly.

Sport Auto's best time with new GT3 was 7:18 v Factory time of 7:12. Can you imagine what the GM Factory time would be for the Z06? 7:08 - 7:10 perhaps?

Them US car have up the pace nowdays ...!
yes the factory is always faster for sure just as you say

No limp mode!? :icon501:

Haha, I Hope they fix that limp mode issue 🤔

Well driven, and you have got to hand it to Corvette for doing a good job with this vehicle. The question for the GT3 and Porsche is "is it a case of too little too late" or perhaps more pointedly has the 991.2 GT3 got the engine it should have had on launch as the 991.1 GT3...........

i will bet that z06 had an larger intercooler or oil cooler....

What I find impressive still, is that even though the 991.2 GT3 is rated at 500hp, it's top speed on the main back straight is still 285 km/hr, which is the same as the Z06, and faster than the ZL1 1LE, both of which have ~650hp. This shows you they have worked a lot in the wind tunnel to make the GT3 have good downforce, but still slippery.

the GT3 is also lighter than both those cars.

Seriously fast. Wow.

That guy definitely left some seconds on the table with the shifting alone. But would still prefer to drive a Porsche, even if slower. And NA at that:thumbsup:. And yes, Porsche horsies seem to be of better quality.

Really? Thought that was some great shifting/driving.

Still can't understand why SUVs and golfs are out there. Truly a hazard.

Them US cars...dang:-)
this Is not sport auto driving-they only use the sport auto lap standard as Its since long is the reference for all to compare laptimes.

Impressive