First 12C drive vs my 2014 Porsche GT3
03-26-2016, 05:18 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
Several GT3's going into limp mode at Thunderhill in Norcal in the height of summer as well. Sure there were a couple of bad 12C's when they first came out but I believe Macs to be very reliable cars on the whole - they just got labeled early on.
Please put up a million photos of the VB when you get it. Oh to get a new P14 in voodoo blue - that would be a dream!!!
Please put up a million photos of the VB when you get it. Oh to get a new P14 in voodoo blue - that would be a dream!!!
03-26-2016, 11:16 AM
#33
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Just saw this thread. Interesting what a small world the Internet has made. To the OP, John that was my old car you test drove. I agree with your thoughts. I absolutely loved the car. Has been my favorite exotic I have ever owned. Engine performance and handling are incredible. However, I heard the sirens'a song and traded the McLaren and my GT3 for an RS. Since purchasing the McLaren, I had thought I would always have one in the garage and had thought about an LT, but a big issue is the closest dealer to me is 6 hours away.
03-26-2016, 12:25 PM
#34
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Several GT3's going into limp mode at Thunderhill in Norcal in the height of summer as well. Sure there were a couple of bad 12C's when they first came out but I believe Macs to be very reliable cars on the whole - they just got labeled early on. Please put up a million photos of the VB when you get it. Oh to get a new P14 in voodoo blue - that would be a dream!!!
03-26-2016, 12:53 PM
#35
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SLM: Saw your trade in GT3 at Woodhouse. My GT3 is real similar to yours; Guards Red, red stitching, PCCB's. I still keep thinking about a McLaren after driving yours. Maybe a Spider is in my future.
Did you have all the free McLaren upgrades that came out in 2013 and 2014 done to your 12C?
Did you have all the free McLaren upgrades that came out in 2013 and 2014 done to your 12C?
03-26-2016, 01:05 PM
#36
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Yes. All the upgrades were done. I think this is one of the highest MSRP 12c. It has just about every piece of carbon fiber that they put on a car. It really is a very special vehicle. I will miss it, but the RS IS certainly good competition for it.
03-26-2016, 05:51 PM
#37
I have owned my McLaren for over three years now and now have about a year with my GT3. My McLaren has been extremely reliable and I have quite a few track miles on it as well. My 12C is a late 2012 model and has had a number of minor issues like condensation in the headlights and the horn quit working because I drive in the rain and apparently there is water intrusion, little things like that.
For extensive track use, I believe the GT3 is more robust and won't have problems with overheating. I have been able to drive it pretty hard (e.g. 2:24 at COTA and sub 1:20 at MSR) And it simply does not get excessively hot or have any issues with brake fade. Years and years of development an engineering show and it just does everything very well. In fact, it punches well above its weight when you look at the statistics like horsepower and weight. Other than the understeer that I cannot fully get rid of, I can't think of a single even minor complaint as to the GT3 on track.
The McLaren is damn near as good. It does tend to run hotter on track, although I've never had any type of warning light or other problem, but when the temperature gauges get deep into the yellow, I short shift rather than continue to hammer on the car.
On the street, for my overall tastes, the McLaren is dramatically better. First, it has so much more horsepower and somewhat less weight that it effortlessly accelerates around essentially any other vehicle. And it makes a lot of torque, so you don't have to Hoon around 6000+ rpm to extract the acceleration it provides, unlike the GT3.
The suspension technology of the McLaren is much more advanced and sophisticated and provides a more livable ride, yet almost no body roll. Also, you can independently adjust the suspension and drivetrain performance with little ***** in the dash and tune it just about anyway you want. You want to drag race start? Set the suspension full soft and the drivetrain full track.
The McLaren also provides bespoke technology, starting with a carbon fiber tub, the sophisticated suspension, and a Ricardo developed engine. As far as I know, the McLaren engine is almost bulletproof, unlike the rather embarrassing start for the GT3 engine. The GT3 is a hotrodded 911 at the end of the day, at least to my way of thinking.
The McLaren doors are clearly done for drama, rather than ease of ingress. That said, I find it perfectly easy to get in and out of my McLaren, and I have to admit the nerd in me loves the swipe to open the door, with absolutely no external door handle. And a nice bonus of the door is that when it is raining, the door and window tilt up to provide you a little protection as you exit the car.
Once inside the car, I have to say that the GT3 certain features that annoy me. First, I think having a gearshift lever in the car is idiotic; all it does is block the view and access to the center console controls. If you are going to embrace dual clutch technology, embrace it for crying out loud and get rid of the appendix-like shift lever. It also annoys me to have to put the "key" in the GT3 dash and turn it. Since my GT3 I have bought both a new Miata and a new viper, both of which have a pushbutton start. I don't need any stinking key. But hey maybe some people like to pretend they're doing a Le Mans stsrt and jump in, stab the key with the left-hand, and go. For my convenience on the street, I'd rather not have to fumble around with putting the key in a slot.
The McLaren infotainment system is almost junk. The sound quality is very good, but the user interface is awkward, and the navigation tends to forget to tell you about turns or just reboot randomly . I don't really mind, because what I typically do if I need navigation is use my iPhone and stream the audio via Bluetooth.
Other than that, I vastly prefer the simplicity of the McLaren interior, with far fewer buttons and the HVAC controls separated on each side of the cabin, so that passenger and driver can control their own environment.
The McLaren of course comes with a full leather interior, rather than having to option it.
To each their own of course, but overall, for me, I think the McLaren is my clear favorite. It's true exotic car, vastly more powerful, and yet usable every day, rain or shine.
While the GT3 gets the nod for the track, I have a little problem. I just took delivery of a Viper ACR Extreme Aero and if the reports are true, The GT3 Will fall into this gap where it's not really my first choice for the street or for the track . Woe is me!
For extensive track use, I believe the GT3 is more robust and won't have problems with overheating. I have been able to drive it pretty hard (e.g. 2:24 at COTA and sub 1:20 at MSR) And it simply does not get excessively hot or have any issues with brake fade. Years and years of development an engineering show and it just does everything very well. In fact, it punches well above its weight when you look at the statistics like horsepower and weight. Other than the understeer that I cannot fully get rid of, I can't think of a single even minor complaint as to the GT3 on track.
The McLaren is damn near as good. It does tend to run hotter on track, although I've never had any type of warning light or other problem, but when the temperature gauges get deep into the yellow, I short shift rather than continue to hammer on the car.
On the street, for my overall tastes, the McLaren is dramatically better. First, it has so much more horsepower and somewhat less weight that it effortlessly accelerates around essentially any other vehicle. And it makes a lot of torque, so you don't have to Hoon around 6000+ rpm to extract the acceleration it provides, unlike the GT3.
The suspension technology of the McLaren is much more advanced and sophisticated and provides a more livable ride, yet almost no body roll. Also, you can independently adjust the suspension and drivetrain performance with little ***** in the dash and tune it just about anyway you want. You want to drag race start? Set the suspension full soft and the drivetrain full track.
The McLaren also provides bespoke technology, starting with a carbon fiber tub, the sophisticated suspension, and a Ricardo developed engine. As far as I know, the McLaren engine is almost bulletproof, unlike the rather embarrassing start for the GT3 engine. The GT3 is a hotrodded 911 at the end of the day, at least to my way of thinking.
The McLaren doors are clearly done for drama, rather than ease of ingress. That said, I find it perfectly easy to get in and out of my McLaren, and I have to admit the nerd in me loves the swipe to open the door, with absolutely no external door handle. And a nice bonus of the door is that when it is raining, the door and window tilt up to provide you a little protection as you exit the car.
Once inside the car, I have to say that the GT3 certain features that annoy me. First, I think having a gearshift lever in the car is idiotic; all it does is block the view and access to the center console controls. If you are going to embrace dual clutch technology, embrace it for crying out loud and get rid of the appendix-like shift lever. It also annoys me to have to put the "key" in the GT3 dash and turn it. Since my GT3 I have bought both a new Miata and a new viper, both of which have a pushbutton start. I don't need any stinking key. But hey maybe some people like to pretend they're doing a Le Mans stsrt and jump in, stab the key with the left-hand, and go. For my convenience on the street, I'd rather not have to fumble around with putting the key in a slot.
The McLaren infotainment system is almost junk. The sound quality is very good, but the user interface is awkward, and the navigation tends to forget to tell you about turns or just reboot randomly . I don't really mind, because what I typically do if I need navigation is use my iPhone and stream the audio via Bluetooth.
Other than that, I vastly prefer the simplicity of the McLaren interior, with far fewer buttons and the HVAC controls separated on each side of the cabin, so that passenger and driver can control their own environment.
The McLaren of course comes with a full leather interior, rather than having to option it.
To each their own of course, but overall, for me, I think the McLaren is my clear favorite. It's true exotic car, vastly more powerful, and yet usable every day, rain or shine.
While the GT3 gets the nod for the track, I have a little problem. I just took delivery of a Viper ACR Extreme Aero and if the reports are true, The GT3 Will fall into this gap where it's not really my first choice for the street or for the track . Woe is me!
03-26-2016, 07:22 PM
#38
I have owned my McLaren for over three years now and now have about a year with my GT3. My McLaren has been extremely reliable and I have quite a few track miles on it as well. My 12C is a late 2012 model and has had a number of minor issues like condensation in the headlights and the horn quit working because I drive in the rain and apparently there is water intrusion, little things like that.
For extensive track use, I believe the GT3 is more robust and won't have problems with overheating. I have been able to drive it pretty hard (e.g. 2:24 at COTA and sub 1:20 at MSR) And it simply does not get excessively hot or have any issues with brake fade. Years and years of development an engineering show and it just does everything very well. In fact, it punches well above its weight when you look at the statistics like horsepower and weight. Other than the understeer that I cannot fully get rid of, I can't think of a single even minor complaint as to the GT3 on track.
The McLaren is damn near as good. It does tend to run hotter on track, although I've never had any type of warning light or other problem, but when the temperature gauges get deep into the yellow, I short shift rather than continue to hammer on the car.
On the street, for my overall tastes, the McLaren is dramatically better. First, it has so much more horsepower and somewhat less weight that it effortlessly accelerates around essentially any other vehicle. And it makes a lot of torque, so you don't have to Hoon around 6000+ rpm to extract the acceleration it provides, unlike the GT3.
The suspension technology of the McLaren is much more advanced and sophisticated and provides a more livable ride, yet almost no body roll. Also, you can independently adjust the suspension and drivetrain performance with little ***** in the dash and tune it just about anyway you want. You want to drag race start? Set the suspension full soft and the drivetrain full track.
The McLaren also provides bespoke technology, starting with a carbon fiber tub, the sophisticated suspension, and a Ricardo developed engine. As far as I know, the McLaren engine is almost bulletproof, unlike the rather embarrassing start for the GT3 engine. The GT3 is a hotrodded 911 at the end of the day, at least to my way of thinking.
The McLaren doors are clearly done for drama, rather than ease of ingress. That said, I find it perfectly easy to get in and out of my McLaren, and I have to admit the nerd in me loves the swipe to open the door, with absolutely no external door handle. And a nice bonus of the door is that when it is raining, the door and window tilt up to provide you a little protection as you exit the car.
Once inside the car, I have to say that the GT3 certain features that annoy me. First, I think having a gearshift lever in the car is idiotic; all it does is block the view and access to the center console controls. If you are going to embrace dual clutch technology, embrace it for crying out loud and get rid of the appendix-like shift lever. It also annoys me to have to put the "key" in the GT3 dash and turn it. Since my GT3 I have bought both a new Miata and a new viper, both of which have a pushbutton start. I don't need any stinking key. But hey maybe some people like to pretend they're doing a Le Mans stsrt and jump in, stab the key with the left-hand, and go. For my convenience on the street, I'd rather not have to fumble around with putting the key in a slot.
The McLaren infotainment system is almost junk. The sound quality is very good, but the user interface is awkward, and the navigation tends to forget to tell you about turns or just reboot randomly . I don't really mind, because what I typically do if I need navigation is use my iPhone and stream the audio via Bluetooth.
Other than that, I vastly prefer the simplicity of the McLaren interior, with far fewer buttons and the HVAC controls separated on each side of the cabin, so that passenger and driver can control their own environment.
The McLaren of course comes with a full leather interior, rather than having to option it.
To each their own of course, but overall, for me, I think the McLaren is my clear favorite. It's true exotic car, vastly more powerful, and yet usable every day, rain or shine.
While the GT3 gets the nod for the track, I have a little problem. I just took delivery of a Viper ACR Extreme Aero and if the reports are true, The GT3 Will fall into this gap where it's not really my first choice for the street or for the track . Woe is me!
For extensive track use, I believe the GT3 is more robust and won't have problems with overheating. I have been able to drive it pretty hard (e.g. 2:24 at COTA and sub 1:20 at MSR) And it simply does not get excessively hot or have any issues with brake fade. Years and years of development an engineering show and it just does everything very well. In fact, it punches well above its weight when you look at the statistics like horsepower and weight. Other than the understeer that I cannot fully get rid of, I can't think of a single even minor complaint as to the GT3 on track.
The McLaren is damn near as good. It does tend to run hotter on track, although I've never had any type of warning light or other problem, but when the temperature gauges get deep into the yellow, I short shift rather than continue to hammer on the car.
On the street, for my overall tastes, the McLaren is dramatically better. First, it has so much more horsepower and somewhat less weight that it effortlessly accelerates around essentially any other vehicle. And it makes a lot of torque, so you don't have to Hoon around 6000+ rpm to extract the acceleration it provides, unlike the GT3.
The suspension technology of the McLaren is much more advanced and sophisticated and provides a more livable ride, yet almost no body roll. Also, you can independently adjust the suspension and drivetrain performance with little ***** in the dash and tune it just about anyway you want. You want to drag race start? Set the suspension full soft and the drivetrain full track.
The McLaren also provides bespoke technology, starting with a carbon fiber tub, the sophisticated suspension, and a Ricardo developed engine. As far as I know, the McLaren engine is almost bulletproof, unlike the rather embarrassing start for the GT3 engine. The GT3 is a hotrodded 911 at the end of the day, at least to my way of thinking.
The McLaren doors are clearly done for drama, rather than ease of ingress. That said, I find it perfectly easy to get in and out of my McLaren, and I have to admit the nerd in me loves the swipe to open the door, with absolutely no external door handle. And a nice bonus of the door is that when it is raining, the door and window tilt up to provide you a little protection as you exit the car.
Once inside the car, I have to say that the GT3 certain features that annoy me. First, I think having a gearshift lever in the car is idiotic; all it does is block the view and access to the center console controls. If you are going to embrace dual clutch technology, embrace it for crying out loud and get rid of the appendix-like shift lever. It also annoys me to have to put the "key" in the GT3 dash and turn it. Since my GT3 I have bought both a new Miata and a new viper, both of which have a pushbutton start. I don't need any stinking key. But hey maybe some people like to pretend they're doing a Le Mans stsrt and jump in, stab the key with the left-hand, and go. For my convenience on the street, I'd rather not have to fumble around with putting the key in a slot.
The McLaren infotainment system is almost junk. The sound quality is very good, but the user interface is awkward, and the navigation tends to forget to tell you about turns or just reboot randomly . I don't really mind, because what I typically do if I need navigation is use my iPhone and stream the audio via Bluetooth.
Other than that, I vastly prefer the simplicity of the McLaren interior, with far fewer buttons and the HVAC controls separated on each side of the cabin, so that passenger and driver can control their own environment.
The McLaren of course comes with a full leather interior, rather than having to option it.
To each their own of course, but overall, for me, I think the McLaren is my clear favorite. It's true exotic car, vastly more powerful, and yet usable every day, rain or shine.
While the GT3 gets the nod for the track, I have a little problem. I just took delivery of a Viper ACR Extreme Aero and if the reports are true, The GT3 Will fall into this gap where it's not really my first choice for the street or for the track . Woe is me!
03-26-2016, 08:22 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Yes, great write ups from Keith and OP. Thank you.
Without owning a Mac (yet), if I may, my only point is that if one thinks about the resources for R&D that Porsche can tap into, plus access to materials, etc., by simply being part of the VW family, all I have to say is kudos to Mac for being able to develop, basically from scratch, a capable MP412C, and needless to say the cars that followed it. It must be a lot harder to be totally independent, show up with a new product, and compete with Ferrari and Porsche, among others.
Without owning a Mac (yet), if I may, my only point is that if one thinks about the resources for R&D that Porsche can tap into, plus access to materials, etc., by simply being part of the VW family, all I have to say is kudos to Mac for being able to develop, basically from scratch, a capable MP412C, and needless to say the cars that followed it. It must be a lot harder to be totally independent, show up with a new product, and compete with Ferrari and Porsche, among others.
03-26-2016, 08:38 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Completely agree. What Mclaren has been able to accomplish from scratch is extremely impressive. The Mclaren styling isn't for me, but I admire what the company has accomplished.
03-26-2016, 09:28 PM
#41
And I forgot to mention my huge man crush over Bruce McLaren. He drove designed engineered at the highest levels. No Porsche Family member did that AFAIK and I know those Italian pikers Enzo and Ferrucio (sp?) sure can't claim pace and engineering skill.
03-26-2016, 09:49 PM
#42
Three Wheelin'
I too am not gaga over 12C styling but it's very organic and purposeful and when you put it in the air there is a lot going on on the underside so I tend to think form follows function with the shiny parts and I am OK with that.
And I forgot to mention my huge man crush over Bruce McLaren. He drove designed engineered at the highest levels. No Porsche Family member did that AFAIK and I know those Italian pikers Enzo and Ferrucio (sp?) sure can't claim pace and engineering skill.
And I forgot to mention my huge man crush over Bruce McLaren. He drove designed engineered at the highest levels. No Porsche Family member did that AFAIK and I know those Italian pikers Enzo and Ferrucio (sp?) sure can't claim pace and engineering skill.
03-27-2016, 12:26 AM
#43
Power - 80% of the 650S's rather substantial torque is available at 2800rpm. 400 ft lb at 2800rpm pulling to 500 vs the GT3's maximum of 324 ft lb developed at around 6200rpm. The only thing I've experienced that's similar was my CBR900RR race bike. You definitely feel the difference.
Sound - The way the GT3 bangs and howls downshifting through the gears coming hard into a corner (like Rattlesnake at MSR), screaming through the GMG, is intoxicating. The 650S sounds best under acceleration with the back window down. And it's good... but never quite gets to the GT3's 9000rpm note.
Ride - I'm sure a good chunk of the extra $$$ charged for a 650S is because of the suspension. As far as I'm concerned, it's worth it. The ride is unbelievable. It's better on the road than my '16 Macan T with AS to say nothing of the GT3. Even in track mode on the track, the ride is surprisingly smooth. And flat... under braking and cornering. That's some kinda technology.
Handling - I'm a bit more comfortable near my limits in the GT3. Some of that may be due to the fact I've tracked it a lot more. Some of it is likely due to the difference in tires (P Zero Corsa A vs MPSC2). Some of it is because the GT3 is more adjustable.
Expendables cost - The McLaren goes through tires at least twice as fast as the GT3 does. It also appears to have a serious appetite for rear rotors because of its brake steer / open diff technology. BTW, a set is about $8000. Don't ask me how I know.
Driver data - The GT3 displays readable numeric data (oil pressure, oil temp, water temp, tire pressure). The 650S displays tire pressures and tire temperatures, but there's no way I can read them while the car is moving. WTF? Further, engine data is shown in the form of 4 stage bar graphs. While they've never moved off "normal" when in use, I wonder what the actual range has been. And just how bad abnormal would be. And how close I've been to it.
View - Visibility out of the 650S is excellent. While the GT3 rear view mirror shows me a great view of the wing, I can actually see other cars out the back of the McLaren. The view out the front is much better also. The lower deck height along with the raised fenders makes it much easier to place the 650S exactly where you want it.
Braking - Both have exceptional brakes. I can however brake slightly later, even though I'm going slightly faster, in the Mclaren. Did I happen to mention the cost of the McLarens rotors?
Fun factor - I can't imagine two better cars to have at the same time, given their price points. One could argue an RS and a 675LT would be a better pair but others might argue the $$$ difference would be better spent on a Billet Silver Metallic ACR. Just thinking' out loud...
03-27-2016, 12:57 AM
#44
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Great write-ups by all the owners of the respective cars.
For me, personally, the McLaren is a non-starter until they beef increase the number of dealerships.
For me, personally, the McLaren is a non-starter until they beef increase the number of dealerships.
