997.2 GT3 RS vs 991 GT3
 

Guys,

I have a deposit on a 991 GT3 and am awaiting the engine swap in late July/early August. Yesterday a friend called about a 2011 997.2 GT3 RS with 4K miles that just became available. With all of the amazing feedback on the 991 GT3 I have not seriously considered anything else. I plan on tracking the car some, but its primary use will be as a weekend driver. While I'm still leaning towards the 991 I'm curious about how the two vehicles compare for my intended use. My friend is a previous RS owner and feels confident that I will love the RS. Plus, he feels that it will retain most of its value. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Dave

997 GT3RS for all the reasons your friend stated. Go drive it....thats all it took for me.

What sort of answers are you looking for? They are very different cars. People that own the 997s (or are stuck in the mud manual transmission zealots) will choose the .2. People who want the latest and greatest will choose the 991. From a livability point of view, the 991 is in a different league.

Hahaha :roflmao:

991 hands down. 997 prices will drop like bricks once people realize what the 991 is. Depreciation aside, the 991 is a more compliant daily driver and if you want to drink some coffee on your way to work, it is smart enough to shift for you. For the few days you track it, it'll be faster than the 997 RS (on same tires).

The 991 was designed from the ground up to be a better street car. For your stated purpose, it would likely be the best choice.

The 997.2 is a better driver's car - among the best Porsche has made. Not so great as a daily driver, but an awesome weekender. However, I would not pay the current premium to get one.

Another thought - between now and when your repaired 991 arrives, the .2 3RS will likely not lose much value. You could try it and see. Then decide to trade or keep based on 991 GT3 feedback, etc.

Based on your criteria the 991 is the better choice in EVERY respect. As has been pointed out, it is faster on the track, better for everyday driving and provides the best Porsche has to offer for a track/DD oriented car.

Out of curiosity why would you select the RS over the 991?

Because it may very well be the last of the normally aspirated RS's, it's the last of the manual trans GT's, and it's one hell of a capable car even if the 991 GT3 has the latest tech...I think those are perfectly sound reasons. For an occasional track car and a w/e fun car the RS has every box checked and it has collectibility.

Would anyone in their right mind take a 991GT3 over a 4k mile 997.2 RS?? Seriously? I mean seriously?

How can it be faster if it cant be driven ??

Good point. Let's revisit after the cars are back on road and on track.

In a heartbeat...

I think I am in my right mind and my answer is yes, seriously.

Personally,I really hope the 991GT3 turns out to be a great car and very desirable/reliable,not just for the folks I have met on this forum,which seem to be quality people from conversations we had online and offline,but it will also mean that the 997.2GT3/RS prices will drop to a more realistic value and I'll be able to snatch one. :evilgrin:


:cheers:

A question likely asked if one has no seat time in a 991 GT3, but regardless, yes....

Just temporarily....

[QUOTE=RayDBonz;11405172

The 997.2 is a better driver's car - among the best Porsche has made. Not so great as a daily driver, but an awesome weekender. However, I would not pay the current premium to get one.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100%. It very well may be the better drivers car but for the premium they are going for at the moment, I would not pay to get one either.

The 991 GT3 sure does raise my eyebrows though. And this is coming from someone who drives/ tracks a 996GT3 which is the polar opposite of 991 GT3 IMO, at least as far as street-ability goes. I appreciate and love the driving experience my 6GT3 delivers but I know I would enjoy what the 991 Gt3 delivers as well. As a bonus, I could enjoy it that much more on the street. Something I can't say about my 6GT3.

I have never been in a 991 GT3 so I don't have an idea of what it's capable of. But if you have ever driven a 997.2 GT3/RS close to its limit you know that it's shocking how fast and capable they are. It would be ridiculous to say otherwise. And it would be a great car for what the OP wants. Manual over PDK is maybe an irrational personal preference issue even if the PDK is faster all else being equal. About the collectibility, maybe the 991 will get there. I don't know. But if you look at .2 RS prices it's already going way up in value.
So you've made your choice and everyone else is free to make their own.

my 2cents...the 997.1RS is more livable as a DD than the 997.2RS.
997.2 rear visability is poor, and the CF buckets are deep.
But, as a track weapon, the sound of the 997.2 reminds me of my 6Cup at WOT.
Looking forward to hearing my '14GT3 at 9k!

When the 991 GT3 slips ahead of the 997.2 RS at the track repeatedly, weekend after weekend, the 997.2 RS will indeed truly become a collector's car ...

The 997.2 RS will not be able to hold its current premium pricing UNLESS the GT3 fails in some self-imploding way ... each of us is making a best guess likelihood about this. Personally, think it very unlikely this GT3 will fail to deliver reliability.

For those with axes to grind betting the GT3 will fail, only precious few weeks remain to sell the 997.2 RS at a premium price ...

On a 991 board, I understand the bias toward that car. Disgusting references to having three pedals notwithstanding.

Personally, I find the .2 RS more visceral to drive than a McLaren 12C or an Italia or an 1100hp GTR or a ZR1.

Paddle shifting is why there is a debate within the same car family. If I compare paddle shifters, the GT3 is behind the Italia and the McLaren for different reasons (458 for sound and excitement, Mc for smoothness). It competes though and is less expensive.

Agree, well said.

I can Imagine when the 991 RS get's here someone saying the exact thing in the perspective of just buying a plane jane gt3.

Each new version will bring us a better performing, and more expensive, version of the previous version from Porsche.

Just one thing that Porsche 'So Called' taking the 911 Up-Market was just horse apples. It's just justification on raising the price literally 10% to 15% over MSRP.

Sorry for going off topic there at the end. I don't really see a 10% to 15% increase in quality, or marginal utility to myself..

I've had a gt3rs and loved it.

But those that are saying it's better than a 991 gt3 for any other reason than collectibility have probably not driven a new gt3 extensively.

I've got 2k miles on my 991 gt3 and would say that if they offered a manual trans in this car, I would opt for the pdk. It's that good.

And with a bypass exhaust, it sounds as good/better than a 997 3...

I really think your choice depends on what you are looking for. Once the engine issues are resolved the 991 gt3 will likely be faster and 991 gt3 rs much faster than the 997.2 rs. That's a given. Anything other than that will be a suicidal and Porsche is a smart, capable company that isn't suicidal! Having said that, i just bought a 997.2 rs at what many of you would consider an inflated price. Here is why:
1. Manual transmission. PDK is the future. It's technically superior and you just can't stop progress. It's very likely that in a few years the manual transmission will become a thing of the past across the industry. I recognize that any new car i buy in a year or two will have a PDK or equivalent. I still like manuals, though, and want to be able to have the manual experience in 5, 10, 15yrs. I found myself looking around for a great manual car and felt 997.2 rs was the best choice.

2. I do like the 997 look better than 991. I think it's admirable that Porsche has bucked the trend and has kept weight down. Unlike weight, though, dimensions have increased a lot and the 991 has, in my eyes, gone a step too far. To me it's beginning to look more like a GT rather than a sports car ( i admit i'm weird that way - if I could i'd shrink the 997 to the dimensions of a 993). Similar story with the interior - I like the traditional no nonsense simplicity of 911 interior. The 991 interior looks too shiny, too fancy to me. It's just a personal, subjective preference.

3. I want an awesome old school car - no torque vectoring, rws, fewer electronic aids, etc. I love the steering feel and even little things such as the fact that when i slow down i can distinctly hear the sound of little stones hitting the undercarriage, just like in a race car. I have the fear (maybe unfounded) that Porsche's push toward efficiency, sophistication, and outright speeds will take away these intangibles that may sound stupid to many of you and irrelevant to an engineer, but are important to me. I think of the amount by which I'm overpaying as an insurance against that fear.

I guess what i'm saying in a very long winded way is that if you want outright speed you should go for 991 gt3 or even wait for the 991 rs. If you are more into the experience than outright speed, then the 997.2 rs may or may not be for you. It depends on what kind of experience you want. For me it's the perfect car for a weekend blast...

Given your criteria, I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis that the 997.2 RS is the better car for you.:thumb up:

in terms of transmissions,
one is the first, the other is the last
in terms of steering,
one is HPAS, the other is EPAS
forget the steering.
in terms of transmissions,
one is the first, the other is the last

so what do you want.

oh i forget, both are fast, but 1 of them is faster. which series do you race in? or do you participate in DEs that can only overtake on straights and point bys. Have you tried a Radical on track? Do you even know aero?

if you know all of that and intend to use the 991 GT3 as such, get the cup car. It's the one you really want.

For me the biggest factor in the 991 GT3 versus 997 RS decision would be getting a new car rather than a used one.

Set aside the issues of gearbox choice, engine heritage, and the fact that the 991 GT3 is more up to date, has more HP, and will be quicker than an RS given the same driver. For approximately similar pricing, I'd much rather have a new car with a full warranty that I can break in and maintain the way I think is proper, rather than one with little or no warranty that has probably been thrashed from day 1 either because the owner had no intention of keeping the car long term or because he/she believes running the engine to redline off the dealer's lot is appropriate.
:to_order:

The fires for sure created a bubble because folks who have to have it "right now" drove the value up along with the greedier dealerships.

We are certain to see the bottom falling somewhat with the 997 GT3s but not to the absolute level the values were before the 991s catching fire. But being the last generation of the manual GT3s, thats all they really have going for them.

Cant wait to see some company come out with a beefed up 991 7 Speed Manual to give what some owners want; an 991 GT3 with manual transmission.

You are overlooking the the most important element - the engine!

The 997 engine is still raced to this day - yesterday in the TUSC race at Detroit, for example. Or in less than 2 weeks at Le Mans.

The 9A1 engine family has been available for public consumption since the 9X7.2 facelift for the 2009 model year, and obviously in development for longer. Porsche has had ample opportunity to race the engine, to prove the engine. Yet Porsche has never raced any variant of the 9A1 engine. Ever. Not even in their own Super Cup spec series. Absent the engine fires and recall, this is still extraordinarily damning; when you consider the events that have transpired since mid-February, it's comical. I prefer manual transmissions, but I'd rather a (hypothetical) Mezger engine mated to a PDK transmission over a (hypothetical) 991 GT3 engine mated to a stick.

Very interesting.

My '14 GT-R was 1200 HP and now have over 1000 track miles on the 458 waiting for the GT3.

Being honest, I'm now only going off memory since it's been a LOOOOOONG time since I've tracked mine back in January, but I'd still take the GT3 hands down, "7 days a week and twice on Sunday" over any of the aforementioned cars in this thread. No comparison.

The previous 9A1 iteration that intro'd in 2009 with it's integrated dry sump, and lower rev limit and HP was never advertised as a motorsport engine. So to be fair, the first 9A1 developed for that purpose, at least in theory, was the one in the 991 GT3 in 2013.

It's true that this latest version hasn't been raced, although again to be fair, it wasn't built in sufficient numbers for homologation for this season, the Mezger had already been homologated until 2015, and changing rules for the various series where it might be used are not necessarily conducive to investing in further development for a new flat 6 race motor. Not to mention that Porsche is already focused heavily on the 919 for this year. The point is that the decision to race or not race this latest 9A1 was/is complicated and not necessarily related only to it's potential or the fact that some variation of it has been around for 5 years.

Everything we know about the 991 GT3 engine is that it was let down by failure of a single part, likely during installation, not by it's basic design. Besides, it's not as if no Mezger engine ever failed. It's great that the Mezger has a long racing history and I hope that some version of the 991 GT3 engine will be raced in the future. But the reasons why it will or won't be aren't as simple as saying that one engine is worthy and the other isn't.

Until the M96 watercooled engine, all Porsche 911s had the "Motorsport" engine. It was a stroke of genius to keep the cars expensive but reduce the content that the consumers received by cutting corners with the powerplant (among other important items). It's akin to Rolex substituting a cheap chinese movement and telling customers to "shut up and take it" er... "shut up and drive."

I will concede that there are numerous factors related to the decision not to race the 991 GT3 engine: Limited resources, uncertain rules horizon, etc. However, there is no reason why the couldn't race the engine in the Supercup series; unless every engine failed, a Porsche would still be guaranteed to win...

By no means is the Mezger engine infallible; the key benefits of its longevity are that is issues are fairly well known and can be fixed or worked around. Porsche themselves struggled with this on the 991 GT3 engine.

It's obvious that we disagree on these points, and it's not like I don't have skin in the game either - once my suspicions about the weaknesses of the new GT3 engine were confirmed, I bought a 997 GT3.

I think we have common ground for discussion. The only comment that you make above that I would truly disagree with is regarding the "weaknesses" of the 991 GT3 engine being confirmed. In fact to the best of our knowledge we know of only one weakness, it was reportedly the result of installation tolerances that were too narrow, and it has almost certainly been resolved.

So two engines caught on fire out of 785. All engines were/will be exchanged. These engines will be bullet proof no doubt. I would call the GT3 engine weak. Let's be realistic please

Unless you're on a witch hunt and the first batch of engines is your target, can't we just wait 6 to 9 more months before we decide to call the 991 GT3 engines weak?

the 991 gt3 looks waaaay better than the 997.

thats why.

This thread is painful for me. A little over a year ago, I had a chance to pick up a beautiful 997.2 RS with something like 2K miles for about $112K. I chickened out and let it go. Haven't regretted many decisions more than that one. :banghead:

Anyway, let's be reasonable here. The 991 GT3 and 997.2 RS are undeniably both awesome cars, with the choice between them coming down to priorities and preferences. Ideal would be to have both!

I've had the 997 GT3. No. I'd not want to own both.

Correction I wouldn't call the engine weak

I would. Coming from an engineering background and currently in the medical field I absolutely would. At minimum in its first iteration it was. With revision version 2 the jury is still out. None of this would have been an issue had this motor been run in Supercup for 2+ years. It was actually harder for Porsche to use the Metzger in the 991 Supercup than its intended motor (a 9A1 derivative) as the chassis was never really meant to accept this engine. . But extraordinarily Porsche decided to use the old motor. I wonder why?

Life's a gamble and I made the decision to sell the RS.2 and go for the 991RS. In the end, it will be different and I had the 3.8 for four delightful years. I have an RS.1 that I will hang onto permanently which is perfectly adequate to address the manual tranny bug.
Not being a speculator on car values, I always assume that the car will be worth nothing or even written off, so any upside is nice, but not the reason to buy or keep. There will be endless ink on this subject until it shows up.
My hope is for an N/A car, and am perfectly happy with the reports on the version of the PDK. The manual shifts in the regular 991 have not been all that great by many accounts, so I would likely have gone PDK anyway. I have in idea how to compare a car that does not exist in public with the existing cars. As usual in Porsche circles they will each have their fierce adherents. Fair enough.

I assume you meant 'you would not call the GT3 engine weak'. I wholeheartedly agree with that. As I mentioned in another thread, double digit numbers of 4.0 liter RS's blew up and had to have their engines replaced. That is out of 600 (est.) produced wordwide and after decades of R&D and racing.

+1

OP here! Sorry for not jumping in until now. I was away for the weekend and haven't had a chance to reply. Thank you so much for the spirited discussion and feedback. Awesome points in favor of both the .2 rs and the 991 GT3. I have not driven either car yet so I am lacking in terms of first hand experience. However, given my intended use and capabilities as a driver here are my thoughts:

In favor of the 991 GT3: (1) latest and greatest technology, (2) can get the car optioned the way I would like it, (3) will be a new car that I can break in myself, (4) more compliant as a DD, and (5) performance will be well beyond my initial capabilities.

In favor of the .2 RS: (1) manual gearbox, (2) more connected feel, (3) acceptable as a DD but probably not as good as the 991, and (4) performance will be well beyond my initial capabilities.

As the 991 was my original choice, I think I am still heading in that direction. However, I may give the .2 rs a closer look. I have time and it certainly doesn't hurt.

Thanks again for the help!

Dave

All this talk about the 997.2 GT3 dropping in price once the new car comes out is completely wrong in my opinion. The prices started to escalate as soon as people knew the 991 would be PDK only. That fact is unquestionable. I mean..you may see a slight tick down due to some trade-ins but it wont be that much at all. Demand for 997 GT3s is high, and there is nothing that will deter that other than a 991 with a Mezger and MT.

And no..I'm not biased. I love the 991 and want it so hard. PDK or not. Haha

FWIW, Horst Von Saurma (the guy who sets Nordschleife laptimes for Sport Auto magazine) says he prefers the 7.2 3.8RS.

Whole interview here - http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...?storyId=30067

Great read! Thanks for sharing.

Jeez big surprise which car he likes!

Well, I wrote earlier in the thread that I chose the 997.2 rs for the experience even though the 991 gt3 was likely to be faster. His laptimes ( http://www.sportauto.de/rundenzeiten...ml?sort=ZeitNS ) would suggest, though, that the 991 GT3 isn't all that much faster. Around Nordschleife the 991 GT3 is 7.32 vs 7.33 for 997.2rs. Around Hockenheim that are dead even (1:09.6). As I said, my choice wasn't about laptimes but I still find this surprising, especially given that the 991 gt3 has some obvious performance advantages (PDK). What do you think it is? Tires? I also suspect that the average enthusiast's experience would be very different as it's probably much harder to extract this kind of pace from a 997.2rs than from a 991gt3.

Also 997.2 GT3's came with Sport Cups. New car (991) comes with Sport Cup 2 which Michelin says is good for 1.5 sec improvement over a minute lap. Tirerack just started carrying 19 inch Cup 2 sizes for what its worth.

Not questioning the preference one way or another. IIRC, however, the 991 GT3 has posted a 7:25 at the Ring. Also, I believe there was an issue with the car tested at Hockenheim; something about a software problem or some such that prevented it from achieving top performance. Again IIRC the car was returned to Porsche for evaluation. Maybe someone else remembers the details.

Porsche forbid "hot laps" in the car for fear of fire.

Would have to believe the base 991 C2S is as quick as the 997 GT3 for most of us. The suspension upgrades are massive over the 997. It all depends on what your looking for. The 996 GT3 guys clearly enjoy the satisfaction of driving a more involving and challenging car well.

Agreed.

More of a never ending argument though. In the end buy what makes your blood boil, independent of laptimes.

+1

Just because I didn't mention that Porsche still puts the Mezgers in their race cars doesn't mean I didn't overlook it. The 9A1 is no where near race proven. And its a good question when they will finally use the 9A1 in their race cars, if ever (?).

I figure Porsche is using their consumer market with the GT3s and Turbos as a "Testing Program" to see how the 9A1 may perform as a true race platform. As of right now I would say 0 for 1 on that idea. Yet we all know most of the greatest programs have their growing pains!

Yup, some of the 996 GT3 Acolytes will even tell you that it is a much more rewarding and thus enjoyable car to drive as a result of the lack of it's sophistication and driving aids and nannies. Just wish Porsche would have brought the RS version to the States. Does anyone know how many RS's of this model were built(?); as in qualifying The Bill Gate Show & Display exception? For some reason I believe they built too many to qualify knowing Porsche!

I have often thought of the Scenario of purchasing a 996 3 and getting the Sharky 3.9 work done. Now there is the 4.1. Imagine for the bubble prices of the 997 GT3s/RS's you could be running around with a monster 996 4.1; well give or take a view grand here or there on either side of the model coin. That scares me, would need a lot of driver instruction to turn it up to 11.

Great imagination.

The 996 is the bastard stepchild of the 911 lineage, including the GT3 even though it has the Mez. Taking the bastard stepchild, dyeing its hair red and feeding it steroids will not make it more desirable.

Or fun to drive.

question - If RS is turbo'd and can go faster than 7:25 does that make it more desirable?

If answer to question is yes in this forum, then it confirms my understanding of the 991.

Not for me. I suspected more than 2 1/2 years ago that the 991 version might be one of if not the last NA/non-hybrid iteration of the GT3. That's why I put down a deposit way back then and why I wanted the car. A hybrid or turbo GT3 or RS might be technically interesting and probably faster, but there's something about a high revving, NA car that does it for me. Don't know if that confirms your notion of a 991 buyer or not....

I agree and that's what makes this 991 GT3 so desirable. With the speculation that the RS is possibly a turbo I am even more interested in this 991 GT3. Looking forward to mine this fall to arrive with no more delays!

Do you have experience with driving both the 997.2 RS and the 991 GT3 on the track? I don’t think so, seriously.

+1.

And, some people simply prefer the 991 styling and advanced chassis over the .2 RS.

exactly why us 7.2 RS guys chose the last RS (baring the 4.0), it is the last merger and more impt.ly for me the last manual RS.

it is also why the aston vantage v12 appeals to me more than the V12S.

it's down to the manual vs PDK debate in the end and what it means for each person... make no mistake though, having a 3rd pedal brings an extra dimension to mastering the rear engined RS. some care, some won't. world goes round.....

smart man.

i drove 991 not on track however. the pdk is phenomenal. i would just leave it in drive and step on it when i get it on track.

the 7.2 RS both 3.8 and 4.0 are great too. sometimes i like to row it myself

fast or not, i never really cared. i even track a slow boxster. it's the feel. i dont think you can make a bad decision on either. but if you want to street drive it a lot. 991 seems to be the better choice.

and if RS turns out to be turbo, i prolly ditch it and keep 991gt3

I agree; if the RS is a turbo I believe it will be less desirable. Turbo and no manual will not be a good package for a car that could demand a $50,000 increase over the 991 GT3.

It depends what your using it for but I found the 991 turbo to perform great on the street no track experience to speak of on it yet.

Whatever your poison, I'm not sure a 997 GT3 variant is a smart buy right now. When the 991 is out in full force and accessible, if becomes accepted despite all the naysayers here, I'd think the prices would go down on the 997. I'd think something catastrophic would have to happen in order for prices to rise again.

For me, I'm not going back to a 997 version. Been there done that, and as cool as they are just not exciting for me.

That said, if you have the coin and know what you want go blow your nut. You only go around once.