Natural competitors? Future car magazine group tests...
#136
Nordschleife Master
As a car guy and not a marque guy, I have no joy in celebrating failure of one over another. In my world, everyone wins if there are a variety of fun, capable, honestly represented cars available for purchase at reasonable prices. So it perplexes me why you would find joy in the opposite or so it would seem from your balloon comment?
Several people have made the comment that hyperbolic, voice-of-Moses marketing is to be expected. You are free to accept being patronized by the marketers if that is what you want. I find it deeply insulting. And the fact is, it does not have to be that way, and is not for some manufacturers.
When your product is honest, it will speak for itself. For example the BAC Mono. There is no hyperbole in it's marketing and there is no need because the car is automotive art and deeply desirable to those who have an automotive background and seek an uncompromised driving experience. Not everyone will understand or care and that is just fine as well.
I have had my eyes opened wide to see how other manufacturers approach their customers and I contrast that with my personal experiences with Porsche. Porsche is a marketing company primarily, and they have chosen to de-content in order to boost profit at the sacrifice of engineering excellence. Furthermore, the products are not of any exceptional quality, the company ignores defects, and does not respond to it's enthusiasts, and the pricing of product and replacement parts are obscene. That's fact, not conjecture, that I reached after owning GT3RS, GT2RS, GT3RS 4.0, Spyder, etc etc.
If Porsche miraculously turns around and offers cars and an ownership experience of compelling value, I will turn around just as fast.
I do not necessarily find pleasure in seeing other brands fail as you might think(even though I'm guilty of some mean comments),but I brace myself at the impact a car like Z28 might have if it doesn't turn out to be the beautiful white horse you've been presenting. Yes,the hit will be minor,if it will cost in the 50s,but in the 70s and up you start weighing options...still not GT3 territory and I agree,if the GT3 fails,it will take Porsche years to recoup...
Yes,the Porsche Marketing machine is strong,may it be hard for you to believe,the domestic Marketing is '' sweet ''...it's like a good red wine that you don't feel at first...because it evolves around the price range where they can't be beat and it addresses to a different category of buyers...but it's there,no worries... '' The mighty Z28 with it's 500 HP and 470 torque...''....but it will still have to prove track worthy just like the GT3...
The BAC MONO is a different toy and you are right that it doesn't need much marketing : it's a track tool,but you won't be seeing many driving it on the street...will you?
Yes,Detlev's statement is total BS and you won't do a 24hrs in the GT3 and then drive it home,but people have been driving them to the track and back home for years,why wouldn't the 991 GT3 be capable of doing the same thing?
I'd say you are a cool guy with a lot more Porsche experience than me,but my humble opinion is that presenting an alternative to Porsche for the track is car guy talk,exaggeration is not...
#137
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
There is nothing good about that, and I am in no way wedded to Porsche's increasingly irrelevant status as a top performance car manufacturer.
#138
Rennlist Member
Porsche, on the other hand, is the most profitable car manufacturer, and started with a clean sheet to develop their signature product. They chose to go for a wide audience.
That said, I do not think the Z28 will win over many Porsche die-hards. That is what the new Corvette is for. The M3 seems to be the target of the Z28.
#139
Race Director
C'mon, Mike - give credit where credit is due. The Camaro is based on an ancient Australian sedan (read: bulky) platform, and the company is barely out of bankruptcy, yet they sidelined the development funds that have resulted in an extremely serious effort that appeals to a very small niche.
Porsche, on the other hand, is the most profitable car manufacturer, and started with a clean sheet to develop their signature product. They chose to go for a wide audience.
That said, I do not think the Z28 will win over many Porsche die-hards. That is what the new Corvette is for. The M3 seems to be the target of the Z28.
Porsche, on the other hand, is the most profitable car manufacturer, and started with a clean sheet to develop their signature product. They chose to go for a wide audience.
That said, I do not think the Z28 will win over many Porsche die-hards. That is what the new Corvette is for. The M3 seems to be the target of the Z28.
In case it isn't, and just for the record, I wasn't knocking the Z28 (except for a comment about it's looks). If somebody thinks it will make a great track or for-any-purpose car, and wants to buy one, more power to 'em. I don't feel compelled to burst their bubble with a bunch of negativity.
I just found it inconsistent that some of the very same people who have been complaining that a 3200 lb Porsche is too heavy to be a proper track car, were lauding a 3700 lb Camaro for being a potentially good one.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 04-02-2013 at 09:00 PM. Reason: typo
#140
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: West Vancouver and San Francisco
Posts: 4,289
Received 1,270 Likes
on
619 Posts
C'mon, Mike - give credit where credit is due. The Camaro is based on an ancient Australian sedan (read: bulky) platform, and the company is barely out of bankruptcy, yet they sidelined the development funds that have resulted in an extremely serious effort that appeals to a very small niche.
Porsche, on the other hand, is the most profitable car manufacturer, and started with a clean sheet to develop their signature product. They chose to go for a wide audience.
That said, I do not think the Z28 will win over many Porsche die-hards. That is what the new Corvette is for. The M3 seems to be the target of the Z28.
Porsche, on the other hand, is the most profitable car manufacturer, and started with a clean sheet to develop their signature product. They chose to go for a wide audience.
That said, I do not think the Z28 will win over many Porsche die-hards. That is what the new Corvette is for. The M3 seems to be the target of the Z28.
I agree that they are gunning after M3, and it will likely eat M3 for lunch at the track, even being heavier. But it will only appeal to those M3 buyers who do not put much emphasis on daily driving, which is a minority.
#141
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Under $55k for Vette C7 with Z51, as I expected:
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/04/26/e...orvette-sting/
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/04/26/e...orvette-sting/