Speedster Driving Impressions - Manual Transmission Feedback
 

Recently I was very fortunate to drive a 991.3 Speedster. I am always chasing this manual GT3 itch and while I am in the market for one, I thought I'd give speedster a try. The prices on them seems to have tanked quite a bit these last few months and I was very close to a pretty good deal although because of the test drive, I basically walked out in the last minute. After reading various reviews and watching pretty much every video of it out there, I was very excited going into the test drive. I left the test drive a bit underwhelmed but also observed things that I'm not sure if they are discussed as frequently:

- The very first thing that caught my attention was the amount of squeaks and rattles the top makes when its in closed position. I drove convertible cars before but this was something else. The entire mechanism where it meets the windows were rattling and making noises as you drove. You didnt need to go through pot holes or anything to hear this.
- The sound of the engine was very underwhelming. I dont know if its because of the 992 GT3 OPF exhaust that causes this or the extra cover that sits on the engine bay area that mutes the sound or a bit of both. Car sounded nothing like a GT3 to me. The sound below 5000 was very quiet and past 7000 you could hear the GT3 character but none of that mechanical, buzz saw noise we all came love particularly between 8000-9000.
- Then there was the gearing and manual transmission. Maybe I need to stop chasing the manual GT3 after all. In theory and in principal this is a very engaging drive. It should again in theory be intoxicating, but for some reason (and this isnt unique to the speedster), I find myself really unimpressed with the manual. The gear throws are too long, the gear shifter has a lot of play (to my liking), the clutch is really light and if you are not really changing gears at higher rpms, lower rpm gear changes - specifically in 1st gear, is really not smooth. No matter how I press the clutch pedal, if I am shifting to 2nd at 3000 rpm, there is a lurch forward where the momentum of the car is cut so abruptly. Then there is rpms dropping too quickly issue that is specific to this car and probably 992 GT3. If you dont have auto blip on, this thing is really not very easy (and enjoyable) to shift smoothly but drive aggressively. The higher the rpms, the faster revs drop. So if I am trying to upshift at 8000 rpm, I have a lot less time to say do the same at 5000 rpm. And I have a little over 120,000 miles of manual transmission (all in sports cars) under my belt in the last 5 years so I am no foreigner to manual transmissions. Its almost like the engine wasn't designed for this transmission - well not almost like, we all know it wasn't.
- While downshifting, manual rev matching doesn't really work half the time. Sometimes ECU will limit the revs and you need to literally double throttle blip but the moment is pretty much ruined.
- Specific to speedster, I really disliked the relaxed steering and suspension. Way too slack. My TTS has more direct steering and better road holding manners (in the form of suspension NVH) that give you more feedback.
- Lastly and this to me is the main problem with manual transmission, the longer gears of the manual transmission absolutely hinders the low end pick up. I have driven the speedster back to back with my GT3RS and when I stab the throttle in my GT3RS at 3000 rpm and do the same in speedster, there is so much more torque and instantaneous response/pick up in my car that it completely changes the way the car feels. Speedster really needs to be 1000-1200 rpm above where my RS needs to be to have the same torque pick up. This got me thinking and probably in a race track, its a non issue. But in a backroad driving, you really feel no power in low rpms with the manual car.

There is a lot of nostalgia with this car but its not fun and becomes frustrating if you want to drive the GT3 the way a GT3 is meant to be driven. I dont like auto blips so maybe thats an issue. Because if I have the auto blip on, neither the revs dropping nor the lurch forward in 1st gear become an issue. But then I am just kidding myself when I say I am driving manual transmission. The whole point is to heel and toe and do this yourself.

As a car though, I know this will upset people, I so did not see the point of speedster. Not for $320-350k. It sounds nothing like a GT3, doesn't really drive much like GT3, it does look like a GT3 from the front and has an engine that new GT3s have.

I wish Porsche made a car that had the steering responsiveness and chassis of the GT3RS, looks of the GT3RS, engine tone and exhaust characteristics of the GT3RS, but came with manual. I'd still have an issue with the gear ratios but those other things could make up for it. There is something about the RS that makes it so much more rewarding to me. Its rawness, eagerness, agility, the mechanical noises it makes. I wish it came with manual!

Thank you for an honest opinion.

I was not particularly impressed with the drive myself. The experience came much closer to my AMG GTC Roadster than I thought it would of a Porsche. Luxury, with some pretense of sportiness. I didn't feel much communication with the car.

Maybe the experience would be a bit better with the roof up, when one might better pickup the mechanical cues.

Tactility wise I felt the car was clearly a notch down from the 911R, closer to a Carrera with stick shift. Most definitely not in the same sentence (even same page) with a GT3 so let's not even try.

PAG priced and sized the production run of the speedster to perfection and the secondary market took everything hook bait and sinker. The "greatness" of this speedster unfortunately has been a myth propagated by the same folks who chased the dealers and fed their ADMs...

You can always make your own manual RS: https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...but-i-did.html

Interesting thoughts on the Speedster. Have you driven a manual 991.2 GT3? That would be a good frame of reference.

I have driven 991.2 GT3 before, a few times. Revs dropping, ECU limiting the throttle blip, the sound issue I highlight in the OP (and obviously rattles) were not issues in the GT3 but the tall gearing and the rate at which throttle response turns into torque at lower RPMs was definitely an issue. The shifter is definitely not that great in my opinion. It feels like its going to snap in half with hard shifting. Lots of play and not very precise. Clutch was also really light. The tremec transmission my GT350 is worlds apart from this Porsche manual. I dont think this manual in the GT3 received the same level of treatment PDK-S did from their engineering teams in terms of precision, performance, and durability. It was more like something they slapped on because everyone wanted a manual.

But of all these issues above the one that to me is the worst is the torque down low. Yes its an N/A car and particularly this engine has its torque way up top. The new Z06 or the GT350 are also high revving N/As but their max torque is 2000 rpm lower. GT3 is particularly weak on this regard. In the case of manual, the longer gear ratios in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd really give the car a slower/less torque feel if you are in 3000 rpm or around that range. Its really sluggish down there where as my GT3RS 3000 rpm has perfect amount of torque.

Sounds like you drove a jacked up GT3. None of those things re: feel of the GT3 manual have been remotely my experience. Not even close. I installed a Numeric shifter which tightened up the throws and mechanical feel, but the OEM is still an exceptional feeling MT (and I’ve owned several).

Not sure what to say about focusing on the performance of a GT3 at 3k RPM. That’s not really relevant for a lot of people who like these cars, but of course you’re entitled to your prerogatives.

It’s also difficult to compare a MT car to PDK in terms of power delivery.

With all due respect, it doesn’t sound like the GT3 is for you. I’d cut my losses and find something else. The Sport Classic would probably have been the perfect car for you.

Have you owned or driven a .2 GT3RS?

No I haven’t. I don’t doubt it has a different feel from the GT3 that you prefer. But of course, you don’t have a manual option there, so it is what it is.

Just sounds like you’re not particularly enamored with the GT3, which is fine.

Like I said - I’m not disputing your thoughts on the GT3 powerband, but I don’t think your experience with the MT shifter feel is indicative of how GT3 normally feels.

I have driven a manual GT3 before, several times in fact. These observations I made isnt the first time specific to this speedster. The feel of the shifter, clutch pedal, engine power band, tall gears have been common in every GT3 I drove. No I dont think I drove broken GT3s.

Here I even mentioned it here : https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...ispreloading=1

Every time I mention this, most responses say “I dont feel that”. Well maybe those people didnt have the same baseline expectations and to them all those aspects are non issue.

Steering is another thing. RS is a much more direct car and the throttle feels almost like an electric car with instant pick up regardless of how low you are in RPM band.

Yes, I wish they made a manual RS in this body style (really dislike 992).

Again….not sure why you’re even bothering looking at the GT3. You clearly don’t like it. Doesn’t hurt my feelings, but it just seems pretty obvious.

For frame of reference I’ve had a SSK and RS shifter in my 993 and I owned an S2000 so I know what a good shifter feels like. The GT3 is an excellent MT, full stop.

You disagree, that’s fine. But your experience is an outlier.

I have thousands of miles on a Tremec 6060 and while it is an outstanding manual box it is not in the same league as the 6 speed in either my 991.2 gt3 or 718 spyder. It is most noticeable when going directly from one car to the other. In isolation all three boxes are fantastic.

Totally different gearbox that tremec. Try Tremec TR-3160. Its a gearbox that was designed for the car.

As much as my views of the sloppy shifter may appear like a deal breaker, they aren't. I know numeric shifter will make it better to an extent. The clutch pedal is also not a problem (but i find it awkward as this from a GT3 as hardcore as this, you expect a matching clutch pedal). The problem really is how the car feels. Thats the steering feedback/directness as well as the throttle responsiveness/engine character. You have to have the rpms much higher in the manual GT3 than a PDK-S RS to get the same tactile feedback/response and you have less room to stretch her legs because of how much faster you are going in each gear (not practical in public roads). In an RS, our redlines come much quicker. In the manual, they take longer and you are noticeably going faster by redline and mathematically speaking you are spending more time at over the speed limit which makes you uncomfortable.

I clearly love manuals and this is why I keep going after a manual GT3. But I find myself in a dilemma. Part of my brain thinks like this : "I love my current RS so much that I want the same car but with a manual transmission" but then when I go and drive the manual GT3 : "this isnt the same car with just a different transmission, it feels and drives like a completely different car". Part of that is the manual transmission gear ratios but the other part is GT3 isnt really tuned/configured as direct as an RS. So maybe this is unachievable and maybe I need to come to terms with it and accept the car as is.

I owned both a 991.1 and 991.2 RS. I sold the last one to get my Touring. I think the transmission is excellent and so is the shifter. I get what you mean as far as the sturdiness of the shifter, but it hasn’t been a problem so far. I enjoy my Touring more than the RS’s I had. More involvement and I like the ride better for the street. I’m very happy with my choice and have not looked back.

Also as far as the torque I think it’s very similar if not the same as between the RS and GT3. They are higher RPM cars by design. If that’s not what you like, then maybe a turbo car is what you are looking for.

But that's not what I was saying. I am very well aware of what they are. I actually have a TTS right now that I really dislike and am selling to get a GT3. I totally dislike the gobs of torque down low cars. I think what I am trying to say isn't coming across correctly.

There is more engine torque/pick up speed/throttle responsiveness at lower RPMs in the RS than there is in GT3. This is most likely due to taller gearing of the GT3 but also larger diameter tires in the GT3RS and shorter PDK-S ratios creating a multiplicative effect of more torque in lower RPMs. This isnt in my brain, i.e. I am just making it up. It's basic physics. If you drive these cars back to back as I have a number of times, its hard not to notice this difference. If you only drive a GT3, that'll become your baseline and you'll get used to it. It is what it is, nothing we can do about it. I am just sharing my experiences in driving these cars back to back. Doesn't make the GT3 a bad car. I am most likely going to buy one regardless to go along with my RS.

Yeah an RS is an RS. You will have to be ok with that.

I think the Numeric shifter would resolve whatever qualms you have about shifter feel. Insert “rifle-bolt” cliche here, but it’s really true. I’ve had guys who know GT3 manuals pretty well who felt the difference just rowing it in the parking lot. The whole thing is machined aluminum and brass. Very direct and solid.

Re: steering feel, I can see your point though I am satisfied with the stock set up. My 993 has better steering, but it’s hydraulic and effectively has an 993RS suspension. Not sure if a more aggressive alignment and possibly lowering the GT3 a little on the coilovers would make it feel a bit more direct. I can say that upgrading to BBS wheels, which are lighter than OEM, did make a positive difference there.

I’m not sure as to gearing between the cars but I never found it to be a problem or noticeable in the Touring. I have read many reviews of the GT4 where there is apparently an issue. When I sold my last RS I drove the Touring within a few days and I was more than happy with my choice. I know it might not be the same for everyone but I don’t care it’s what I like and the same is true for you and everyone else that chooses different cars. Good luck with your journey!

That 993 you have is absolutely amazing and must be a blast to drive

Sometimes I wish there was a thumbs down button

I currently own a Speedster, I don’t experience any of the negatives the OP did. As a point of reference I have owned 991.2 GT3 manual, 991.2 RS, 997.2 GT3, 997.2 GTS, 991.1 C4S, and 718 Spyder PDK.

Both 997s needed the Numeric cables to get them just right IMO.

My Speedster has zero creaks or rattles, it’s a lovely experience but def less hardcore than the GT3 or RS. The manuals in the 991.2 GT range all feel similar to me. Very good units, don’t have much to complain about, the 997 GT3 tranny with just the numeric cables was a bit better weighted and has more feel.

The Speedster is a very expensive car and unless it meets your expectations I would def pass on it. It’s too much money to have doubts.

The squeaks and rattles in this car was actually pretty bad. I didn't go into too much detail in the OP but here it goes. Car had around 1,000 miles. In addition to the roof structure, both door panels as well as the seat backs were rattling. Speedster has this plastic pieces in the LWBs that sit next to the leather seat center. Those plastic pieces were somehow rattling like crazy. The center dash was rattling. The transmission tunnel cover was rattling/buzzing. I have a full dundon system in my 991.2 GT3RS and I dont have this many rattles and noises (in fact, I have none). So maybe this 1 particular car was an outlier. But I agree with you, this is still (even with steep dealer discounts) a very expensive purchase. Oh well, the hunt continues!:)

I too presently own a 991.2 Speedster along with a 992 GT3 Touring and a few other Porsches. I have owned almost all of the GT3 iterations. I absolutely love my Speedster and have not experienced any of the issues complained about by OP either. No rattles whatsoever. I've taken my car on long distance road trips including the Tail Of The Dragon and had an absolutely fantastic experience.

I know personally other owners of Speedsters who likewise love their cars and have none of the complaint's mentioned by OP either.

I do feel that the Speedster is a little less hardcore than some of the other GT3 variants from a suspension standpoint, but really ideal for any driving short of track use. Of all my cars it is the one that I grab the keys to almost all the time especially if the weather is conducive to putting the top down which elevates the regular GT3 driving experience to a different level.

I share the same as many, post several GT3’s, and both 991 RS’s. The Speedster is the only Porsche I’ve owned the longest. Zero rattles, and yes clutch is lighter than the 997. Speeder was designed to be a fun cruiser, and with a killer engine that carries over to the 992. Good luck with your choice, by the way I’ve only had the top of twice in 3 years.

I can totally see that happening as there are more plastic bits in the Speedster behind the seats and the cut outs in the LWBs.

@rk-d I agree 100% ... OP @3pedals not really sure what the point or goal of your post is, I think the consensus is that your experience/complaints are not typical of GT3 ownership... sounds like any GT3 is not the car for you.

bottom line I dont think you are going to find many here that will validate your point of view.

Just wondering if your comparison of the drivetrain between the 991 Speedster and 991 GT3RS is slightly biased. I'm assuming your test driving a completely stock Speedster but your comparing it to a modified RS with a full Dundon Exhaust. I've got to think that the sound from your 991.2 RS with a full Dundon exhaust will be much louder than the stock Speedster. Also the performance should be much improved with the Dundon System if I am to believe the dyno numbers. So I don't doubt you have a preference to your RS which is probably as familar to you as the back of your hand. What would be interesting is to see how the speedster would subjectively perform with a full Dundon exhaust. I know it would change the character of the car, but I'm not sure I want dump another 16-18K right now. Good luck with your search!

Good point. Full Dundon will sound and feel noticeably different from OEM GT3 or Speedster. It’s on my short list, in fact.

This is correct about the Dundon setup. Its pretty loud. However, I am not comparing Speedster to my GT3RS with the full Dundon exhaust in terms of the sound. I am comparing it to a stock GT3. I have driven a 991.2 GT3 Manual several times and I know how that car sounds and speedster sounds nothing close to it. That 8000-9000 rpm metallic buzzing sound that GT3 makes isn't present (but I think 992 GT3 doesnt have this sound either. So I think its an OPF/ITB thing).

As for the throttle responsiveness, I actually don't know if my car is as razor sharp even at 2500 rpm (i.e. 40% sudden throttle response at that rpm results in very quick pick up vs in speedster/gt3 there is a good second that goes by before car picks up) is due to the Dundon setup or PDK or GT3RS tuning from factory or a little bit of all of them. The only way to confirm this is to get a stock GT3RS and try the same. But I never feel lack of low end torque driving my GT3RS even below 3000 rpm. I feel the manual GT3 needs to be at or above 4000 rpm to feel the same. Personally I think this is gear ratios plus the RS tune is the reason.

EDIT: I think my messages may be coming across as a dislike to manual GT3. It is not. I am still hunting for a manual GT3 (hence a WTB thread I made). These differences I highlight simply mean I find there are visible differences between GT3 6MT and GT3RS and that a GT3 isn't simply GT3RS with a smaller wing. They drive vastly different. The steering in the GT3 is much more relaxed. Suspension is a lot more compliant. There isnt as much tire and road roar/noise. I dont say these things to mean as negatives. I actually think these make a good case as to why people can own both and not be bored.

That being said, Speedster (the reason for the OP) isn't a convertible GT3. It drives and sounds like a completely different car. It's not a bad car by no means but it doesn't have enough of the GT3 character for my taste.

Like STALKER99 here, I too own a Speedster and I too haven't experienced any of the negatives noted in the OP. In fact, my experience has been the exact opposite on quite literally every point noted:

1. I have zero squeaks/rattles, whether the top is up or down. (I can't say the same for my 987 Boxster Spyder.) The top here is fantastic, period. There are no rattles in the doors, or anywhere else. It is bank vault tight.

2. The sound is certainly more muted than say with an RS, no doubt, especially at lower RPMs. I also own a 991.1 GT3RS, which as reported by Car and Driver, was one of the loudest cars they have ever tested (108 decibels). But, I don't think the Speedster is "quiet," and I actually enjoy a more muted car (as compared to an RS) at lower RPMs, especially on the street. I think it is fitting for the whole Speedster idea -- a car that is more road, as opposed to track, focused. The Speedster screams above 5k, and my Speedster got noticeably louder once broken in (i.e., once I crossed 2k miles or so). But, others here disagree with my assessment re sound, and have gone the Dundon or GMG after market exhaust route.

3. The 6 speed is simply brilliant, period, IMHO. Throws are short and precise, and while the cutch is somewhat light, I think it is perfect. (I really did not like the heavy, heavy clutch in the two 997.1 GT3RSs that I previously owned.) There is absolutely zero play with the shifter, and shifts are super, super smooth. It is pure joy.

4. The Speedster feels sharper (on account of the ITBs) and dare I say faster than my GT3RS, even at lower RPMs. Both cars do need to be in at least the 3k-4k range, though, to have some punch/kick. Low-end torque isn't there, as say with a turbo. But, that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone here . . . . PDK vs manual can be debated endlessly, and there is no doubt that gear changes with PDK are "quicker." But, I don't notice any difference between my Speedster and GT3RS when "stabbing" the throttle, and in fact, my Speedster seems to have more bite than the GT3RS. I just love the driver involvement of the manual for a car like the Speedster, which again is road focused. On the track, I will take PDK all day long; but, for a car like the Speedster I prefer the (brilliant) 6 speed. I don't find the gearing long (which I can't say for the GT4 I previously owned!).

5. I think the Speedster is much, much more fun to drive on the street than the GT3RS. The GT3RS really shines, and is super exciting to drive, on the track. Some of the very best drives I have ever had, in any car, have been in my Speedster. It is quite clearly a Motorsport product. No doubt about it. But, like the Touring and the R, it is (again) more road focused.

As noted above, I am guessing the Speedster test driven here was an outlier.

That being said, different horses for courses . . . and the Speedster may not be for everyone.

Owned a speedster and a 991 touring for 3 years, i ended by selling the second one after more than 15000km in each one.
I'm not a track guy, and for mountain roads there is no susbtitute for the speedster.

Your experience is not at all consistent with mine. Bought my first Porsche in the late 80s. 1968 912. I feel the same thrill today in this car as I did in that. It makes you appreciate the brand and the mindset.
It is not a winged racer car. Never meant to be that,

It will likely hold or grow in value, as it is a numbered car and has the parts of some of the best sports cars that Porsche has made. Engine from a 992.1, chassis of a GT3, front hood and fenders from a RS, largest composite piece ever made by Porsche for the Rear Cover. Lighter exhaust than the GT. Last of the 5 Dial gauge set up that is mostly analog. The only thing drawback is the blind spot. Worth the effort of stretching your neck. I sold my 2018 GT2 Touring with 22,000 miles to move to this car. Like the Touring, Love this car. Better engine, same chassis, open car and unique.

Bottom line. It is a Gentlemen's car that can be at Cars and Coffee, or pulling up to a nice restaurant, Quiet in its presence and VERY unique. The ICE cars will likely be produced at a much lesser pace in the future and this is the pure experience that thrilled me the first time I drove my 1968 912.

Different Strokes, for Different Folks.

Not third world problems here.

So you’ve got a GT350, a GT3RS and a TTS but then you’re complaining about the build quality of a Speedster, low end torque and the manual trans of a 991.2 GT3?

You appear to have enough experience with Porsche to know their build quality and when you might have stepped into a bad example. Your observations about the manual’s quality/precision or the speedster don’t add up to the consensus from a group of folks that are usually over critical.

Then you post a thread searching for a manual GT3 yesterday? Either you’re full of it or you’re off your meds.

I have to chime in and disagree with the OP about the GT3 manual. It is fantastic, period. I wouldn’t change a thing about it. The auto blip annoys the **** out of the cyclists on my frequent lakeside drives. Which makes it even better of course.

Also, comparing the low rpm power and torque from the 4.0 with the Vette and Mustang engines is truly an apples/oranges situation. Displacement always wins that battle. Aside from launching the car, when are you driving it below 4k rpm during spirited driving anyways?

Not once I have compared the torque of the 4.0 to mustangs and vettes. I understand its internet and forum and you may lose track of who is saying what. I was strictly comparing GT3RS to GT3 manual.

Ummm okay OP - Direct quote from you-

“The new Z06 or the GT350 are also high revving N/As but their max torque is 2000 rpm lower. GT3 is particularly weak on this regard”

You need to read/quote that entire paragraph as the main point I was trying to make is I feel the gear ratios of the car over a PDK gives it a disadvantage. I was simply saying that this 4.0 liter already has its peak torque all the way up top (vs other N/As) and the longer gear ratios make it a little worse.

Anyways, I clearly hit a few nerves here. I can see how one would like the speedster. Its not for me. Reading the reviews or watching catchpole talk about it, one would assume its a convertible GT3. Its not. You may love the car and yours may not rattle like the one mine did, thats fine. I still stand by my statements around the engine noise (particularly when the roof is closed), steering sharpness, and suspension. Its a car thats much closer to a targa or a carrera other than the fact that engine revs to 9000.

GT3 is an experience from the moment you turn the key. Even the way it idles is different.

When I get the manual GT3, the first thing I will do is putting the same full dundon system on it. If that improves the 3000 rpm throttle feel, I’ll come back to this thread and report my findings. Not every car is right for every one of us. The reason I made the thread was because what I read/watched about the car didnt align with reality. It wasnt to bash speedster. I wasnt expecting it to drive/sound/feel that way. I was genuinely disappointed, so much so that I came out of the test drive saying “darn it, that was unexpected”. I went there ready to sign and drive home with the speedster, so I was pretty serious. And lets ignore the rattles, maybe my car wasn’t well taken care of who knows. Either case it wasnt the right car for me. GT3 it is.

Personally, I don’t see your post as bashing. I’ve owned the 991 GT3, 991.1 RS, and the 99.2 RS, and the Speedster unfortunately like the 992 has the particulate filer so you will hear the same. I know some that changed the exhaust on the speedster it’s a beast. Not me personally it’s not what I want to hear in a cruiser, and it was never meant to be a GT3 thus it’s called a Speedster with a GT3 engine minus all the harshness. “It’s not a track car” I’ve owned the car for 3 years top up twice, honestly they could’ve not made it with a top I would have purchased. The original design didn’t have a top. Good luck on choice, and if a 992 you will see some of the same minus changing the exhaust. We live in a bad world of emissions, and ICE’s are in danger buckle up.

One thing I have noticed re my manual gt3 is the gearchange is quite notchy when cold. When the gearbox has fully warmed up, and this takes a while, the gearchange is simply fantastic. Maybe the Speedster needed a longer drive?

I am also fitting the Dundon street headers, but never felt the car lacked torque. Thought it would on paper due to the torque curve and high revving nature of the engine, but was really impressed how well it pulled low down.

Can wait to hear the engine scream with the Dundon package installed!

Same. That characteristic is accentuated with the Numeric.

I’m ok with it. It forces me to drive conservatively until the car is warmed up. You can literally feel when the car is getting up to temperature, which is cool. Makes the thing feel more alive and unfiltered.