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Separate but related I'm seriously exploring going with Surface Transforms on my 992 GT3 Touring. I believe this may well be the best of all worlds. However the cost is not trivial. YOLO, ADM, no ADM, PTS, no PTS, blah blah. Sinatra - did it my way.
I think that's a point that many people seem to gloss over.
While the Surface Transform setup gets much love here on RL (and perhaps rightfully so), I think one thing that does not get mentioned enough is that the Surface Transforms might be an alternative to the PCCBs, they are not necessarily a cheaper one, at least not significantly so.
Cuz, if I recall correctly, the ST setup is something like 13-14k, depending on whether your car is OEM'd with PCCBs or Irons. And then you have the additional downtown to get the rotors refinished, which can be upwards of months (yes, months) not weeks or days. GLWT.
My 2015 gt3 has 7000 miles, all street miles. I would like to do maybe 4 days of DE events a year. I'm only one level up from novice, so I'm not that aggressive...yet. I love the cleanness of the ceramic, I mean no dust after miles and miles of driving. Do I really need to convert to iron rotors for track use, to avoid damaging this very expensive hardware? Or, is that very limited time being aggressive with the ceramics nothing to worry about? I don't want to have to change between street and track gear every time I go to track. I also don't want the car full time steel rotor due to dust. Also, if going to steel rotors, I assume the calipers remain, just need to go to compatible pads for steel rotors? Does someone make a set of rotors with compatible pads should I go that way.?Thanks all, and Happy New Year!!
I have done 25 track days on my 2018 gt3 touring beginning from novice to advance since 2019 on pccb, at least 7 days were open track with advance group and a handful of 2 day events. Nothing to worry about if your only going to track 4 days this year so don't waste time and money switching to steel. Pads are needing replaced for this coming season. My 2 cents.
Cost aside, there is also the hassle of how to get them resurfaced. You have to put the car on jack stands, remove the wheels and brakes and rotors, and mail the rotors back to ST in Europe and then... wait. And wait. And wait. All the while, your car is underivable. Unless you have another set of rotors/pads/calipers (if needed) to go on in the interim. Not many people do. On top of that, some people don't have their own private garage where they can work on their cars like this. I imagine the majority of owners would bring their car to a shop and have the shop handle it. But then you're paying the shop to store your car for a few weeks while you wait for the rotors to come back in the mail.
Originally Posted by ipse dixit
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And then you have the additional downtown to get the rotors refinished, which can be upwards of months (yes, months) not weeks or days. GLWT.
As a practical matter if one switches to ST before they need new brakes (say upgrading from the OE irons) they would then have their original rotors to use while the resurfacing is being done. Obviously some increased cost of putting the old ones back on and vice-versa. There's hassle, trade offs and cost considerations in any approach - ST, PCCB, OE iron, Girodisc, etc. I'm exploring ST to try to get the very best experience when driving the car.
Another reported advantage is weight savings, but I'm a heavier guy, and an extra 20 lbs isn't going to make a difference to my track driving.)
20 lbs of weight in the car is very different than 20 lbs of unsprung weight at the wheels. Also the weight saving b/w OE iron and ST is ~40 lbs unsprung. Just clarifying the numbers that's all.
To answer above comments about brake wear, yes 3 weekends on CCM's is excessive, yes a Corvette is not a GT3/GT4 etc. We try to keep out posts knowledgeable with hands on experience.
As far as our customers with Porsche's and CCM's I'd say a majority of heavily tracked cars we service opt for a Girodisc steel conversion with a Pagid or Ferodo race pad. Most customers are surprised when they learn a "conversion" doesn't involve jenky caliper brackets etc. When you do a Girodisc steel conversion you simply remove your CCM rotors (and CCM pads) and install the Giro steel rotors and new pads. That's it, no aftermarket bracketry is involved etc.
When you do a conversion to steel rotors on a CCM 991 your brake pad height or "swept area" (referred to by brake engineers as the annulus) is smaller. This is for a few reasons. Reason 1 is that the CCM pads/rotors must have a larger annulus to provide the same braking capability as their steel counterparts. Reason 2 the steel conversion rotors have a smaller swept area/annulus is to save weight, since you do not need the same sweep area on the steel rotor it does not make sense to have the heavier steel rotor the same size.
^ Front Iron brake pad for 991/992/GT4. Note "annulus" of 80mm ^ Rear CCM brake pad for 991/992/GT4. Note "annulus" of 88mm
Annulus is the depth of the friction surface, not the height of the whole pad as you have indicated.
In these examples, the annulus is 62mm and 74mm respectively.
For those considering ST's and concerned with down time while getting your rotors refurbished, we will likely be offering a set of 2-piece iron rotors/pads for you to mount in the interim. ST quotes 10 days turnaround but we all know shipping delays can occur. With that said, since these do last longer than PCCBs (not even including refurbs), it's also quite likely that many owners will never even need to deal with refurbishment. If and when the time does come, simply call us and we will send the loaner pads and rotors to you and facilitate getting the carbon rotors shipped to ST.
Did a day at Laguna Seca yesterday. It was pretty hot. 97 degrees. My brake pad sensor warning lights came on during the cool-down lap of my 5th session. Looks like time for a pad change at least. They lasted 10,000 miles and 7 track days. No idea what the rotor life is. Will have to have them measured when I change pads. After watching video playback of my laps, looks like traction control kicked on a lot (more than any other track I've been to), likely causing a lot of pad wear in the rears.
Interested to see what measurements you get back. I just hit my first track weekend at Thunderhill last week and brakes seemed to hold up just fine and pads appear to have plenty of life left. I know the original owner did a few track days, just not sure how many. I just clicked over 9K miles.
Wow! 97 degrees at LS! I left Garberville up north (touring the wooded hills and coastline) in the morning and was concerned about icy roads.
Sorry back to topic - Sounds like I don't need to worry about CCM-R being a problem on track. I have heard of major problems when pads are swapped out and not bedded in properly. Basically, complete destruction of the pads after a few laps.
PCCB enthusiasts, your dreams have come true. ;-D Earlier this year, I promised to publish my PCCB carbon content results (aka PCCB brake wear results). I did do that...but on a different thread apparently (DOH!), so I've re-posted the chart here and now it has a few extra notes on it. FWIW, I drive a 2021 718 Spyder with some relatively minor suspension mods. I'm in the advanced run group and drive pretty aggressively. I know I'm harder on my brakes than I should be (I've been working on that this year). I drove 3,021 track miles in 24 track days at 9 different tracks in the northeast this year and plan to drive Sebring In March. After Sebring, I'll get my PCCB's carbon content measured again and will publish the updated chart. This year I went through 3 sets of front brake pads and 4 sets of rear pads and 3 full sets of Michelin Cup 2 tires (I needed to put a 4th set of fronts on to finish the last 3 track days).
Clearly, I'm not the only person who's concerned about using up PCCB's on the track. As such, I wanted to bring more actual testing, facts and reporting to this thread so we shed a little more light on just how much PCCB's and OEM brake pads wear. Obviously, this info is representative of what's been happening with my car with me driving it...your mileage may vary...possibly by a lot.
I've read in previous posts that people get thousands of track miles out of their OEM pads w/ their PCCB's. My experience is very different. Typically, I get about 1100-1200 track miles out of my brake pads and tires. At some tracks it's half that. Why? because different tracks put different demands on the car. At Lime Rock, there's a single heavy braking zone at the end of the straight where I scrub off nearly 80mph (137 down to 60mph) and then it's 1.6 miles occasional light braking (when I'm doing it correctly). At Watkins Glen, there are FIVE of those heavy braking zones in every lap on a track which is only twice as long. Mystery solved, that's why I wear through brake pads twice as fast at the Glen. You're tracks are different, your driving/braking style may be different. The data I'm presenting at least offers a factual look at longevity of these components under what I'd categorize as closer to 'worst case scenario' than to best case scenario (b/c I know I beat on the brakes).
One last bit of important info. I've read in other posts that engaging 'traction control' can increase brake wear (rotors and pads). There's no doubt it can. I very rarely engage 'traction control', I rarely engage Stability Control or ABS. But what does engage...constantly and w/o me knowing...is PTV. My car has Porsche Torque Vectoring (PTV). It automatically adds braking to the inside rear wheel to help the car turn. There's a LOT of turning at tracks in the northeast....Club Motorsports has 15 turns in 2.5 miles, Palmer has 14 in 2.3 miles, NYST has 18 turns in 2 miles. The list goes on. There's no button to defeat it (unless it shuts off when either Traction Control or Stability Control are turned off?). I can tell you for a fact that it adds significant brake wear....just look at how much more rear brake wear there is than front brake wear (chart below). It's almost double the wear. Again, maybe it's my driving style, or the tracks I go to., but for sure I have to replace rear pads more often than fronts.
Well, anyway, this is probably a lot more info than anyone wanted, but there it is. FWIW: I was one of those people reading these threads, researching different CCB options, possible refurbishing of my existing rotors (eventually) vs Girodisc or Hinz discs, etc... So I hope this info helps people make rational decisions about their brake systems. I'd love to get data on how the other systems wear...how long they last....in a format like this. Y'know w/ recorded actual data.
PCCB enthusiasts, your dreams have come true. ;-D Earlier this year, I promised to publish my PCCB carbon content results (aka PCCB brake wear results). I did do that...but on a different thread apparently (DOH!), so I've re-posted the chart here and now it has a few extra notes on it. FWIW, I drive a 2021 718 Spyder with some relatively minor suspension mods. I'm in the advanced run group and drive pretty aggressively. I know I'm harder on my brakes than I should be (I've been working on that this year). I drove 3,021 track miles in 24 track days at 9 different tracks in the northeast this year and plan to drive Sebring In March. After Sebring, I'll get my PCCB's carbon content measured again and will publish the updated chart. This year I went through 3 sets of front brake pads and 4 sets of rear pads and 3 full sets of Michelin Cup 2 tires (I needed to put a 4th set of fronts on to finish the last 3 track days).
Clearly, I'm not the only person who's concerned about using up PCCB's on the track. As such, I wanted to bring more actual testing, facts and reporting to this thread so we shed a little more light on just how much PCCB's and OEM brake pads wear. Obviously, this info is representative of what's been happening with my car with me driving it...your mileage may vary...possibly by a lot.
I've read in previous posts that people get thousands of track miles out of their OEM pads w/ their PCCB's. My experience is very different. Typically, I get about 1100-1200 track miles out of my brake pads and tires. At some tracks it's half that. Why? because different tracks put different demands on the car. At Lime Rock, there's a single heavy braking zone at the end of the straight where I scrub off nearly 80mph (137 down to 60mph) and then it's 1.6 miles occasional light braking (when I'm doing it correctly). At Watkins Glen, there are FIVE of those heavy braking zones in every lap on a track which is only twice as long. Mystery solved, that's why I wear through brake pads twice as fast at the Glen. You're tracks are different, your driving/braking style may be different. The data I'm presenting at least offers a factual look at longevity of these components under what I'd categorize as closer to 'worst case scenario' than to best case scenario (b/c I know I beat on the brakes).
One last bit of important info. I've read in other posts that engaging 'traction control' can increase brake wear (rotors and pads). There's no doubt it can. I very rarely engage 'traction control', I rarely engage Stability Control or ABS. But what does engage...constantly and w/o me knowing...is PTV. My car has Porsche Torque Vectoring (PTV). It automatically adds braking to the inside rear wheel to help the car turn. There's a LOT of turning at tracks in the northeast....Club Motorsports has 15 turns in 2.5 miles, Palmer has 14 in 2.3 miles, NYST has 18 turns in 2 miles. The list goes on. There's no button to defeat it (unless it shuts off when either Traction Control or Stability Control are turned off?). I can tell you for a fact that it adds significant brake wear....just look at how much more rear brake wear there is than front brake wear (chart below). It's almost double the wear. Again, maybe it's my driving style, or the tracks I go to., but for sure I have to replace rear pads more often than fronts.
Well, anyway, this is probably a lot more info than anyone wanted, but there it is. FWIW: I was one of those people reading these threads, researching different CCB options, possible refurbishing of my existing rotors (eventually) vs Girodisc or Hinz discs, etc... So I hope this info helps people make rational decisions about their brake systems. I'd love to get data on how the other systems wear...how long they last....in a format like this. Y'know w/ recorded actual data.
Question - were these carbon content measurements made with the rotors off the car (my understanding is that this is necessary to get an accurate measurement)?
Nice job! I too have noticed the rear pads wearing slightly faster than the fronts which I suspected was due to PTV. Your report helps to confirm my conclusion that 90% of us out there doing track days are just not going to heat PCCB rotors past the point where you cause serious rotor degradation. That along with changing the pads at 5mm and there is not much to worry about IMHO.
So to answer both questions/comments. I'm also amazed at how inconsistent the measurements are. Both used the same brand of tool. It just so happened that the Porsche tech I go to has his own Carboteq measuring tool (an $8,000 tool). He moved to a different Porsche facility and the new facility had their own tool so we were able to do readings with two tools in the same visit.
Re: measurements on vs off the car...please read the column headings for specifics on how and when measurements were taken and with which tool. Some measurements were taken w/ rotors on the car (first & third columns of data), later readings with rotors off (4th and 5th columns of data). More specifically, once I learned that with rotors on the car the measurements could be off, I decided to get the data on that, too (see last 3 data columns). When I brought my car back for an end-of-track-season brake wear check, I asked my tech to measure the rotors while ON the car, then take them off and measure them again on a wood bench (with the same tool...his), then measure them a 3rd time (also on the wood bench) but this time with the shop's tool. Everyone but the tech thought I was nuts, but you now understand why I asked for that info. On 3 rotors, the readings taken w/ rotors on the car indicated nearly twice the amount of wear vs the same rotors measured when on the wood bench. So, yes, measuring rotors while on the car results in highly inaccurate readings. Now, why the LF rotor's readings weren't dramatically skewed like the others...who the heck knows? I've heard that nearby steel is what throws off the reading...so maybe there's less steel near the LF rotor than there is near the RF? Doesn't look like it to me, but what do I know? I could see both back readings being thrown off by the brake heat shields, but those don't exist on the front.
Anyway, once I got these readings, I knew I could kick the 'rotor swap' can down the road for another year. Well, that year is now up. In the spring, I'll get my new readings to see how much more rotor life I burned through in 2022. All things being equal, the fronts should be 20-30% used up and the rears will probably be more like 40% used up. I plan do do a little less track time in 2023....I need to work more :-(.....so I can probably kick the can down the road for a couple more years before I need to make a decision about what to do. Based on what I know now, I'd probably just buy a replacement set of OEM PCCB's for the rear and call it a day. I love the feel of these brakes on the track and no matter how hard I brake, they never fade or overheat.
Hard to get great info out of this but I'll mention it anyway...on my 981 Cayman S w/ steel brakes, I measured rotor temps consistently just under 700 degrees during an August DE at Watkins Glen. I had to bleed my brakes after every session b/c the pedal was going soft...and I was running RBF660. Running the same track under the same conditions, but now my speeds are higher and my Spyder weighs a little more than the Cayman did, so the brakes are doing significantly more work, my PCCB rotor temps are around 300 degrees F and the pedal never goes soft...not even a little bit.
And you could also talk about the advantages of less unsprung weight and no brake dust on my silver wheels after just a 10-mile trip to fuel up. Look, someone said it earlier, better performance comes at a price. What do you feel comfortable paying?
Last edited by modernyankee; 11-04-2022 at 02:32 PM.
Question - were these carbon content measurements made with the rotors off the car (my understanding is that this is necessary to get an accurate measurement)?
02-11-2022, 07:53 PM
