GT car scams
09-24-2018, 11:43 AM
#166
Drifting
09-24-2018, 12:09 PM
#167
09-24-2018, 12:21 PM
#168
Burning Brakes
I believe Michael Jordan should do something when kids shoot each other at shoe stores. I believe Porsche should take a stand in some fashion. Just like they punish those who used to ship Cayennes out of the US. There are ways to control the market and push out the corruption,
I understand your opinion, however, we fundamentally disagree and I'm not in the habit of changing anyone's, let alone a stranger on some car forum.
09-24-2018, 01:13 PM
#170
The reason Ferrari can compel their dealers to sell at MSRP is because US law allows them to do that. Provided their auto production remains below 10,000 cars a year. Once over the 10,000 car annual production, auto manufacturers are exposed to a whole bunch of new laws. https://www.businessinsider.com/ferr...a-year-2015-10
09-24-2018, 01:50 PM
#171
The reason Ferrari can compel their dealers to sell at MSRP is because US law allows them to do that. Provided their auto production remains below 10,000 cars a year. Once over the 10,000 car annual production, auto manufacturers are exposed to a whole bunch of new laws. https://www.businessinsider.com/ferr...a-year-2015-10
09-24-2018, 02:28 PM
#172
The governing law is the Sherman Act, which used to say manufacturer-dealer/retailer price requirements was per se illegal vertical price fixing. But that was relaxed by the Supreme Court about 15 years ago to only hold when there was market power involved. A manufacturer can legally tell a dealer how to price their products. And that dealer can refuse and risk losing their dealer relationship (subject to agreements already in place obviously). Note, however, all this is related to pricing in the opposite direction though, i.e., it's to prevent manufacturers from forcing retailers to price artificially high, not to force them to price lower. There is no case for arguing that a manufacturer is violating the law by forcing a dealer to price lower, as there is no damage to the public by said action. The law is basically irrelevant to this entire debate. All that matters are the terms of the actual franchise agreements in place between the manufacturer and the dealers.
09-25-2018, 02:28 AM
#173
Track Day
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09-25-2018, 03:01 AM
#175
Track Day
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Disappointing elitist attitude for a car enthusiast forum, I could easily afford more, but I don't spend money needlessly. Usually people who earn their money know this. I don't advocate regulation, I advocate for sanity and an end to this chaos. If you are a broker or flipper or use them, you are part of a "black market" you justify your position by saying its capitalism. Just like the coyote who smuggles people across the border instead of being legit and sometimes it all goes wrong like it did for customers of SS. I own rental property and businesses and I don't punch a time clock, that means I work for a living, and I believe in capitalism. I believe Michael Jordan should do something when kids shoot each other at shoe stores. I believe Porsche should take a stand in some fashion. Just like they punish those who used to ship Cayennes out of the US. There are ways to control the market and push out the corruption, They already manipulate dealers with allocations. Customers and the market need to be nurtured and grown, these games interfere with that relationship. Non Porsche Dealers should not be profiting from scarcity, period. That can be made to happen, non refundable deposits scared away brokers and flippers, requiring purchasers to offer first right of refusal for resale in the first year stops this game. AP made it clear, these cars are not a hedge fund.
Great conversations.... enthusiast vs. flippers/dealer reps (hahaha.... kidding, but why would anybody would defend dealers if they can get more realistic prices?)
I think most of us believe in free market and capitalism.... but, like anything, it has to be in a controlled free market, if not, it would be easy for someone to get taken advantage of. Example some of us lucky enough in getting MSRP, others not so much, because dealers or flippers have been playing this game for a while, and holding out information from buyers. If all buyers know where to get cheaper prices, there will be no ADM. This is not about Porsche or PCNA, but about dealers taking advantage of their customers. Look at stock market, information is key, so 40-50 years ago, when brokers can withhold info to buyers, they can manipulate and make money from retail buyers. Now, not so much, because of internet and better regulations. Another example is drug companies, a decade ago, negotiation was eliminated, and drug companies can demand medicare, or other health plans any prices they want, as long as there is no competition. That results in $800 for epipen.... Do you think that is right? Is that how free market should work, just because there is no competition, they can rip off patients?
I know this is about hundreds of thousand dollars worth of luxury goods, but I think Porsche also wants to get most of their cars to enthusiasts that appreciate and enjoy the brand, but now it seems like most people who get a hold of the products are the opportunists (dealers and flippers). If the demand is higher than the supply, then increase the price or produce more like you guys said, but I don't think it is the case. It, to me, looks more like lucrative situation for flippers and dealers to take advantage of, that's why you see uneven prices people pay....
I don't expect everyone to agree with my conclusion, but for those who agree, and would like to do something about it, write to PCNA, we may be able to go somewhere. There is no guarantee, but won't hurt.... Regulations, laws or what ever, there is always an exceptions, or you can write new laws....
09-25-2018, 12:15 PM
#176
Rennlist Member
All these dynamics with GT allocations and ADM lead to higher prices and also a financially strong dealer network ....end result is profitability throughout the entire channel with VW group the winner in the end after all the dynamics of the current situation....they make more per Car!! That's all this is about really crystallized to its most basic result and we all know that.
The emotional connection to the marque is strong enough to both new and existing Porsche buyers to withstand all this crap, and VW knows it....
The emotional connection to the marque is strong enough to both new and existing Porsche buyers to withstand all this crap, and VW knows it....
09-25-2018, 12:28 PM
#177
Aside from this thread being full of some of the worst analogies imaginable (ADMs are the equivalent of human trafficking? 
), unworkable solutions that would violate state laws, and a lot of whining, it’s also full of simple errors in logic. Again, how many of you pay MSRP for every car you buy and if you’re okay with market forces getting you cars below MSRP, how can you with a straight face act like it’s highway robbery when the price is above MSRP?
Whining about pricing is the epitome of self entitlement, which certainly isn’t in short supply on Rennlist. ‘But Daddy, Porsche owwwweeeesss me a GT3 at sticker! And I want it nowwwww!’ Settle down Veruca.
), unworkable solutions that would violate state laws, and a lot of whining, it’s also full of simple errors in logic. Again, how many of you pay MSRP for every car you buy and if you’re okay with market forces getting you cars below MSRP, how can you with a straight face act like it’s highway robbery when the price is above MSRP?Whining about pricing is the epitome of self entitlement, which certainly isn’t in short supply on Rennlist. ‘But Daddy, Porsche owwwweeeesss me a GT3 at sticker! And I want it nowwwww!’ Settle down Veruca.
09-25-2018, 12:31 PM
#178
Banned
I don't see how VW is benefitting one bit from the flipper/ADM game.
09-25-2018, 12:37 PM
#179
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
How do you figure VW is the winner? They sell the cars to the dealer for a fixed cost, let's say MSRP minus 10% (hypothetically I have no idea but for argument sake). When dealers and flippers mark them up with these ADM's, they (VW) do not get a dime of that. VW would actually make more money by doing 2 things; keep the production numbers the same but increase the price to dealers thus then dealers MAY not be able to make the same ADM's therefore VW sharing in the increased price OR keeping the price to the dealers the same but crank up production and sell them more cars.
I don't see how VW is benefitting one bit from the flipper/ADM game.
I don't see how VW is benefitting one bit from the flipper/ADM game.
09-25-2018, 12:43 PM
#180
Three Wheelin'
Just checking back in after few days....
Great conversations.... enthusiast vs. flippers/dealer reps (hahaha.... kidding, but why would anybody would defend dealers if they can get more realistic prices?)
I think most of us believe in free market and capitalism.... but, like anything, it has to be in a controlled free market, if not, it would be easy for someone to get taken advantage of. Example some of us lucky enough in getting MSRP, others not so much, because dealers or flippers have been playing this game for a while, and holding out information from buyers. If all buyers know where to get cheaper prices, there will be no ADM. This is not about Porsche or PCNA, but about dealers taking advantage of their customers. Look at stock market, information is key, so 40-50 years ago, when brokers can withhold info to buyers, they can manipulate and make money from retail buyers. Now, not so much, because of internet and better regulations. Another example is drug companies, a decade ago, negotiation was eliminated, and drug companies can demand medicare, or other health plans any prices they want, as long as there is no competition. That results in $800 for epipen.... Do you think that is right? Is that how free market should work, just because there is no competition, they can rip off patients?
I know this is about hundreds of thousand dollars worth of luxury goods, but I think Porsche also wants to get most of their cars to enthusiasts that appreciate and enjoy the brand, but now it seems like most people who get a hold of the products are the opportunists (dealers and flippers). If the demand is higher than the supply, then increase the price or produce more like you guys said, but I don't think it is the case. It, to me, looks more like lucrative situation for flippers and dealers to take advantage of, that's why you see uneven prices people pay....
I don't expect everyone to agree with my conclusion, but for those who agree, and would like to do something about it, write to PCNA, we may be able to go somewhere. There is no guarantee, but won't hurt.... Regulations, laws or what ever, there is always an exceptions, or you can write new laws....
Great conversations.... enthusiast vs. flippers/dealer reps (hahaha.... kidding, but why would anybody would defend dealers if they can get more realistic prices?)
I think most of us believe in free market and capitalism.... but, like anything, it has to be in a controlled free market, if not, it would be easy for someone to get taken advantage of. Example some of us lucky enough in getting MSRP, others not so much, because dealers or flippers have been playing this game for a while, and holding out information from buyers. If all buyers know where to get cheaper prices, there will be no ADM. This is not about Porsche or PCNA, but about dealers taking advantage of their customers. Look at stock market, information is key, so 40-50 years ago, when brokers can withhold info to buyers, they can manipulate and make money from retail buyers. Now, not so much, because of internet and better regulations. Another example is drug companies, a decade ago, negotiation was eliminated, and drug companies can demand medicare, or other health plans any prices they want, as long as there is no competition. That results in $800 for epipen.... Do you think that is right? Is that how free market should work, just because there is no competition, they can rip off patients?
I know this is about hundreds of thousand dollars worth of luxury goods, but I think Porsche also wants to get most of their cars to enthusiasts that appreciate and enjoy the brand, but now it seems like most people who get a hold of the products are the opportunists (dealers and flippers). If the demand is higher than the supply, then increase the price or produce more like you guys said, but I don't think it is the case. It, to me, looks more like lucrative situation for flippers and dealers to take advantage of, that's why you see uneven prices people pay....
I don't expect everyone to agree with my conclusion, but for those who agree, and would like to do something about it, write to PCNA, we may be able to go somewhere. There is no guarantee, but won't hurt.... Regulations, laws or what ever, there is always an exceptions, or you can write new laws....
The Mylan issue is an example of where the free market is adversely impacted by government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescr..._United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Govern...anted_monopoly
No, it's not right. And, it's a problem created by pharmaceutical companies and their lobbyists that worked to restrict the free market to the benefit of specific private businesses. And, it's a very different issue involving a sell-out congress and, not comparable to dealer ADMs when you have multiple dealers to choose from versus a single monopoly manufacturer of a prescription drug.
Writing to Porsche about dealer pricing is best put in the form of "please increase inventory" rather than "make my dealer charge me less" if you'd like any kind of useful reception. Your feet are the best solution to ADMs. Walk to a dealer that charges MSRP. If you can't find one because they're all charging an ADM, wait until next year or, cough up the money because you think it's worth it to have the car now.
Dan (laughs at flippers as he heads to 30k miles)