Needsdecaf

Guys:

Below is a post I wrote in the 991 forum after finally getting to drive a 991 GT3. Needless to say I loved it. In the end, I think for me right now I own the perfect 911 for my needs, as I have two kids who still fit in the back. Plus, in Houston, you can use the cab most of the year. However, it won't be long before they don't fit, and the loss of the back seats isn't a big deal.

Below are my thoughts. They are written from the perspective of a Carrera owner to other Carrera owners who might not have driven the GT3 as I had not. Obviously, y'all already know most of what I'm saying. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on when you moved from a normal Carrera to a GT3. Do you use it differently? Less or more often? What would your perfect 911 be? I'd appreciate your thoughts as GT3 owners. Thanks!

<<REPOST BELOW>>


So, with all the discussion about a manual returning to the 991.2 GT3, and the rumors (now squashed) of the touring option including a rear seat, my curiosity got piqued. What could be more perfect than a wingless GT3 with a rear seat! My perfect Porsche. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy my C2S Cab, but I'm always looking to the next car. I bought the Cab partly because I wanted my wife and kids to get enjoyment out of it. But My kids are 10 and 7 and only have a few more years before they won't fit in the rear anyway. And let's face it, a GT3 is mega.

Just watching all the release videos has got me salivating over the thought of that 4 liter engine screaming to 9k RPM, the race bred suspension, etc. etc. Every video review I've watched has just gotten me salivating over the thought of a GT3. Yesterday during our monthly North Side of Houston PCA cars and coffee event, one of the members rocked up in a GT4 and I really needed to scratch the itch!

There are a few for sale here in H-Town but most dealers treat them like unobtanium and you're lucky you get a seat in them, and heaven forbid you ask to drive one. Luckily, there are still some cool dealers in this town. I won't name names, but you can PM me if you want.

So I arrived yesterday for my appointment with no small measure of excitement. I honestly didn't know what to expect. Would I be finishing up the appointment asking for a trade in value of my car, and trying to convinve myself I could live with the loss of the rear seats? Or would I think that it would be a crazy beast, amazing but not really useful even as a weekend toy? I know that coming from a Cab, even an S, it was going to be a world of difference, but I didn't know just how different it would be? Of course, the exterior, to me, looks loads better. The wider body, the lowered stance, the more aggressive aero. The car looks super sinister and purposeful. Inside....looks like a 991. LOL. My car has full leather so this car was even a little lower grade looking than mine. I will say that this car had the 4 was sport seats, and I really liked them. I was afraid that I'd miss the extending thigh bolsters from my 14 way seats, but I didn't at all. They were far more comfortable, to my 6'2" and large framed self at least, than my 14 ways. I'd definitely get them in a future car. Otherwise, aside from the yellow needles, all looks similar to a PDK equipped, non-sunroof Carrera.

Oh, except for the 9,000 RPM redline.

The salesman and I got in for the drive. Starting it up, it sounded like a normal 911 or 5 seconds, and then all the cacaphony started. There's a lot of noise coming from the rear. Chuntering and small clunks. I understand that's normal. The engine sounds a bit angry and restless. Setting off at walking pace, the diff binds up a little bit. The ride quality is pretty flinty over small bumps and road cracks. Keep in mind, this is rolling out of the dealer parking lot over poorly maintained concrete access roads.

Once we rolled out onto some better roads and got some speed on, the suspension took a deep breath and relaxed. The ride at 30 MPH and above wasn't much worse than my C2S. In fact, even at normal commuting speeds, I could immediately feel that the car is far more tied down than any "normal" 991 Carrera I've driven (.1 and .2 both C2 and C2S). There's very little of the typical Porsche "nose bob" that you still even feel a bit in the 991's (certainly it's nothing like one of the air-cooled cars, or even the 997). The car feels otherworldly planted to the ground.

The car had a bit of heat in the oil, but not enough to cane it yet, so when we rolled onto the frontage road and up onto the highway, I left it in auto and let the car short shift. Well, short shifting for slightly warm GT3 is still about 4,500 RPM! The first thing I noticed was that the car felt much more responsive to the helm. The steering is much more communicative, plus the RWS must add some serious agility. I tried a few lane changes through moderate traffic and the car just moves all of a piece. It's effortless, like a shark gliding through a school of tuna. It's the boss, just waiting to pounce on it's prey. A highway cruise bores this car to tears.

Keep in mind, this is Houston. There are very, very few good roads to drive in a spirited manner. Unless you just want to do a straight drag on the highway. Very few twisty roads. I went a few miles up the highway, noting that the car's natural cruising speed seemed to be somewhere about 90....seriously. This car is so unstressed at that speed it's crazy. As I dropped down off the highway, I noticed the oil temp was finally climbing above 170. I popped it into manual as I pulled into the u-turn on the frontage road, and pulled up to the yield. The entrance ramp for the highway sat about 1/4 mile in front of me. Wait for the gap. Wait for it. And go.

I've driven a 911S PDK with Sport Chrono in Sport Plus mode. PDKS in a GT3 makes that car seem like a GM Hydro-matic 3 speed in terms of shifts. The speed at which the transmission swaps cogs is just otherworldly. 9k in first, then 9k in second and I'm up the ramp at speeds, well, let's just say that I was braking at the top of the ramp to blend into the highway traffic. The transmission, which was utterly smooth and non-offensive at slower speeds rips off WOT upshifts with a firm crack. The response to the pull of the paddle is immediate. Next to me the salesman says, "I never get tired of that, and neither will you". He's right.

I ran it down the highway a few miles, this time at a hotter pace than my first run. The car simply begged me to slice it through traffic. It was entertaining, but only for a moment. As I told the salesman, my days of passing cars with 30 MPH closing speed are long gone. There are just too many distracted drivers and even more lack of discipline than there was even 10 years ago. I popped it back into auto and sat back to collect my thoughts. I did want to check the car's responsiveness first, so I gave the throttle a good nudge while crusing in 7th at about 70 MPH. Instantly we were in 3rd and rocketing well into triple digits. I shut it down after about 3 seconds, or we may have doubled the speed limit.

I cruised back to the dealership and dropped off the salesman, and picked up my 10 year old. He was excited to not be waiting in the dealership any longer although he didn't seem too excited about driving in just a 911. LOL. I did a few hard pulls on the highway for him, but got off and headed for the one back road with a few turns in the area. This is in a fairly populated area, so there's no room for hooligan speeds, but there are a few turns where you can take them without braking in a high performance car. Time to get a feel for how this beastie handles.

It is, of course, otherworldly. This is a track bred weapon operating at under 50 on some back roads, so it's probably operating at, max, 4 tenths. And that's by taking a 25 MPH posted corner at 40 and not lifting. So not a true test for the car, but beginning to reveal it's nature. And that nature is just planted. The car is completely secure and tied down. I've driven this stretch of road in many, many cars. 911's, Panamera Turbo, M3 / M4, C63, Jag F type, you name it. It's the only decent road around and there are many car dealerships along the highway in the area. The GT3, as expected, is the most capable car I've driven on this road. That's to be expected, but it's the way the car feels that's just simply magical. The sense of control that the car exhibits must be felt to be understood. I've driven 993's, 997's and 991's and this car just doesn't feel like a 911. It feels, well, I don't want to use the "race car for the street" cliche, as it's not that raw. But the level of communication streaming back to you through the wheel and through the seat is simply next level. The super sticky front end combined with the RWS makes direction changes immediate, instant and rewarding. The lack of movement and flex from a standard 911 is palpable. Of course, I'm used to driving a Cab, but even vs. 997 and 991 coupes, the car is much more solid, planted and secure.

But somehow, even completely unstressed, the car isn't boring. It still feels like a 911. You can still feel the rear weight bias. The car is not working hard, but it's still talking to you. It's enjoying the workout, even if it's not breaking a sweat. You feel what the car is doing. The stiffer suspension is now flowing and the payoff for that low speed nuggety ride is a much more talkative experience at speed, even low speed. That chatty diff is now putting down power like a champ. Combined with the relatively weedy level of torque, you can slam the throttle home at the exit of a bend, even in second, and just ride that magical power curve all the way to the 9k RPM redline. Of course, 9k RPM in second is something like 70 MPH if I remember correctly, so you're not doing that too often.

The curvy section is broken up by a park, and some junctions, so it doesn't flow and all too soon I found myself merging back onto the frontage road to get back on the highway. As you can imagine a full throttle pull into traffic found me faster than the cars actually ON the highway, and I had to brake for traffic getting up the ramp. I did a quick run down to the exit below the dealership and cooled my jets as I exited and pulled a u-turn.

The salesman wanted to know my thoughts. My first statement was, "I'd lose my license in a week". That could be true, but I suspect after actually owning such a beast and having more access other than a test drive, I'd figure out the time and the place to properly exercise it. Be it through the hill country or on a track, there are a few places to take the car to stretch it's legs. My second thought was that it's just too much. Too much car to drive on the long, boring, straight roads where I live here in Houston. If it was in the North East where I grew up, in the Hudson Valley and the foothills of the Adirondack mountains, I'd have some places to exercise it more regularly. As it is around here, it really MIGHT be too much.

But just like I have a deep love for my daily driven VW GTI, I think I might quickly fall in love with the GT3, even if I didn't ever bring it on the track. And it's for the same reason, albeit at a different level. The GTi is just a hoot to drive. The car talks to you all the time, but it doesn't beat you up. Sure, full throttle gives you a bunch of turbo lag, torque steer, and a bit of front wheel burnout. But it's always poised and planted, and has a lithe feeling that makes it fun to commute to work in. Turn in is precise, you can feel the weight transfer at slow speeds. The car is your constant companion. The GT3 feels the same way. Even at speeds well, well below it's capability, it's always telling you what it's doing. It's confidence and capability is not coupled with aloofness. It's not inert. The M3 and M4, by comparison, give you a stoic shrug when driving at 5 tenths. They don't tell you much.

Hopping back into my C2S cab for the ride home gave me more to think about. Compared to the GT3, the suspension felt much less in control. There was a lot more movement from bumps. Reactions to steering revealed the lack of poise from the front end, and the absence of the RWS. Whereas before I rode in the GT3 the car felt super planted and controlled, now I could feel the compromise of the suspension. There was always an extra bit of movement from a bump or from an input that wasn't there in the GT3. The steering certainly lacks some of the communication that the GT3 has. The GT3 is closer to a 997 than a standard 991 Carrera in it's feel. And even in Sport Plus, ripping through the gears to redline in my S, despite only being down 75 HP, the car lacks that fanatical pull on the top end. 6k to 7,500 in the S is only half as thrilling as 7,500 to 9k in the GT3.

There is a bit more honesty to the standard Carrera though. Once I had about 10 minutes back in my car, could recall my appreciation for what it is. The standard 911 is a fantastic car. It's a joy to drive and a great experience. I didn't come off feeling like it was some poor relation to the GT3. it's still a sublime machine to drive. The suspension isn't as capable, but it's a little more honest feeling for it. A little more authentic 911, rather than super capable road racer.

So that lead to a little soul searching. What would my perfect 911 be? In all honesty, I really do enjoy the cab. Its a lot of fun to drive with the top down, and hear the car working (especially with the PSE). It's been 20 years since I owned a droptop and I forgot how the additional sensory input changes your experience of driving. Likewise, I can still put all four of us in the car to go to dinner. That won't last too much longer, but I'm enjoying it while I can.

The difference in powertrain is palpable. Even thought the standard Carrera S engine makes it's power up at the top of the rev range, it lacks the urge in the final 1500 RPM that the GT3's car has. I cannot even imagine how special the new 4 liter engine must be by all accounts. But, as you can see comparing power curves, in the lower revs, the Carrera S isn't too far off the mark. You really need to wring out the car to get the most of it. It's certainly rewarding to do so, but there are just not many opportunities to do it on the public roads. Plus, and I'm being brutally honest here as someone who owns a manual transmission 911, I don't know how you'd keep up with an engine that's even angrier than this one having to row your own. I'd love to drive one, or drive a 911R to see what you need to do to stay on top of an engine with this high of a powerband. You can see why the Porsche engineers are baffled that the buyers would prefer the manual to the PDK. The way the PDK changes gears and keeps you into the power has to be felt to be believed. It's just unreal.

I left thinking back to earlier in the day seeing that GT4 at the PCA meet. I imagine that in all honesty, the GT4 might be the perfect car for me from a driving standpoint. That incredible front end of the GT3 carries over wholesale, but it's got the S's engine so it's a little less frenetic. I'd just like the gearing to be shorter, same as I want it to be shorter in the Carrera S. Maybe the Boxster Spyder for the open top experience? Not sure.

As far as the perfect 911? I'm not sure. I love the GT3 chassis. You can certainly daily the thing, at least where I live. It's not super stiff. I love the increased communication, the poise and the alertness. And while I love the powertrain, it's just insane to think of how fast it is on the public road, and how you're constantly goaded into just wringing it's neck to get the most out of it. I'd want a little more low end torque, but don't think I'd want the compromises that come from turbocharging. And before you get on me as a turbo hater, two of my current 3 cars are turbo..one turbo petrol GTI and a turbo diesel Cayenne. And before that, my previous two daily drivers also had turbos. I've lived with them, understand them, and love their torque. What i don't love is the inherent lag, the heat soak, and the top end restrictions. Perhaps the new 4 liter engine solves all problems? I'm not sure.

I also lament the loss of rear seats in a Cayman, Boxster, or a GT 911. With kids, the practicality is just too much to be discounted.

Finally the transmission. I can't wait for the reviews of the manual 4.0 liter car. I know that the owners of 997 GT3 RS and RS 4.0 liter cars love the manual in it. But I've no seat time in those cars to see how they compare to the 3.8 GT3 engine or new 4.0 engines. Are they too frenetic?

I still think that a de-winged, manual, with rear seat 991.2 GT3 might be the perfect 911 in my mind. Perhaps one day down the road I might buy a Touring pack car (no rear wing, manual only) and add the rear seats from a coupe. I'm sure it can be done. Until then, I'll enjoy my Carrera S and keep dreaming about how awesome that run in the GT3 was. I'll remember it fondly.

roburado

I've never owned a Carrera. The only ones I have ever driven were at the Porsche Sport Driving School. Those were the 997.2 C2; 997.2 C2S; 991.2 C2S. The 997s were back in 2011 when I was used to driving manuals. PDK freaked me out a bit, because it was weird to hear the throttle blips on downshifts. I was wondering if I hit the brake and throttle at the same time. It was disorienting. The manuals felt more natural to me at the time. When I went back in September 2016 and March 2017, they had the 991.2. I hadn't driven a manual in a long time. So, I stuck mostly to PDK cars. Personally, I get the whole thing of Porsche engineers and instructors at the school being advocates for PDK. There's a lot of extra stuff that I as a crappy driver have to pay attention to without having to worry about rowing the gears. Still, it's fun to do so. Ideally, I'd have a manual transmission car and a PDK car.


In terms of comparison to GT3, well...I can only compare to the GT3RS. I'll just say that if I can swing it, there's really no option for me. GT3 or any Motorsport division car is going to be it for me. Carreras? Okay. I'll take one if that's all the budget will allow. The GT3, I can only imagine will be just like you said in your write-up. That's more or less the way the GT3RS felt to me.

brownan

I honestly think a conventional Carrera is probably a better choice for around town, DD duties and obviously the top goes down. Maybe try a Turbo? That could be an interesting change.

race7117

I have owned A Carrera, Carrera S, and Carrera S conv, GT3, and now GT3RS. For me steering feel and driving experience are paramount. I specced all the cars without PDCC. I found that option to really numb the feel of the car turning in corners and then unable to feel the transfer of weight between turns. Never knew if I was unsettling the car because the PDCC would always take of that for me. The GT3 is a great driver and I feel better for DD than my RS. I like my RS better but in general the GT3 is easier to manage on the street, not as wide smaller wing, sofa seats, etc. On the older 991s the PDK system was also reversed so using the gear lever to shift was opposite to what I normally do so just impossible to use (I would be downshifting every time I wanted to upshift). This is not the case with the new 991s I have been told. I did have a chance to drive a 50th Anniversary edition with Manual and x51 powerkit. Awesome car for the road and all you would ever need if you didn't hit the track. That being said I really enjoy how my RS feels to drive, although it's a bit much for the road, I like it and don't need the rear seats (single guy). For me the steering feel and road communication are what I look for in a performance machine.

KINGSRULE

"the suspension took a deep breath and relaxed".....um OK did u give it a belly rub?? LMAO.

Needsdecaf

Nope, I gave it a Milk Bone.

Sloopy

I'v driven both and felt the 991 series carreras to be a little too much like an Acura. Just a little too nice or civilized than the older 997 unless driven hard; then performance would shine through. I had a Boxster S and it was a great car but, like you said, only 2 seats. Older 997 GT3 was way too raw for me and rode worse on all but the best roads.

I bought the 991 GT3 figuring it would be better than the old one and not as boring as the CarreraS. Boy was I correct. Totally different car and find it rides great on all but bumpy pothole surface. You now know the feeling. Driven every day is very possible but I have another vehicle and find I use it for business and short days yet find I can't live without the GT3 for too long. It rarely sits for a whole week...

Also have a radar detector and found I can live with the car without going to jail. Note I do live in the hills though with great roads within a few miles.

sechsgang

I didn't end up liking my 991 gt3 at all and ended up with a GT4 then GTS and couldn't be happier in the GTS...it really does have the most ideal mix of everything you mentioned...the new one in particular chassis wise (minus the fact you said you don't want the turbo'd 911).

Surge74

Nice review. This is exactly what I'm going to do. GT3 Touring on order, and rear seats can definitely be added. (A few people here will say otherwise, but they don't know what they are talking about.)

Oldmxnut

Ive a 911 50th manual and a 997 GT3. Chalk and cheese, but the 997 is too raw for me as a daily and the 911 50th is very nice to drive daily or an enjoyable moutain drive destination. I really like the retro and standard carrera and not so racer look. You get a lot of compliments on the 911 50th from more motoring enthusiasts which appreciate it rather then the general public (and cops), who see the wing and think ""poser"".. So the gt3 touring I am hoping has the engagement of the GT3, can soften when driving less then 4/10ths, provide the 9/10ths thrill on the odd track day and the has looks of the 91150th.

991carreradriver

I guess that I am one of those Pcar enthusiasts who is in a fairly unique position to comment on this thread, as I currently drive both a 2016 C2 and GT3. Neither are my DD.

For me, the C2 is great car but having the constant comparison reminder of the differences between them, as I switch off is really eye opening. This comparison in almost real time is far different than a dealer demonstration ride comparison.

I have made the decision to sell the C2 and the deciding factor was not the power difference. The C2 is plenty powerful enough for the street and the track, IMO. The stark contrast between PDK and PDK-S is just too much to overcome. The lightening quick shifts (compared to PDK), no forward creep, a true clutch in the shifters and shorter gear ratio's is nothing short of amazing.

The OP commented on the difference in the suspension, I don't notice this much as the C2 has SPASM. Also, I have DSC controller in the GT3, so the GT3 rides a little softer (in normal) than the C2 on the street. As for cornering, there is no comparison. The GT3 (as one would expect) is far superior.

Comfort is a subjective type of thing. The GT3 feels like a sports car. The C2 feels more like a touring car, which is kind of funny as the GT is supposed to be the touring car.

As I reflect on these two cars, the real difference is the transmission. For those of you who love the PDK ( I am a convert), try to test drive a car with a PDK-S.

Gravs

I second that having driven both. PDK-S feels like a manual without a clutch. PDK feels like a slushmatic.

Dr.Bill

I've had several versions over the years - C2S, C4S, TTS, GT2, GT3, GT3RS.
I will never again own one that doesn't have 'GT' in the name, followed by a number. They are that much better.

ajag

This +1. I'm done with non GT 911s.

991carreradriver

^^^This, +1