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Ferdinand Piech Rides Shotgun In First PTS 2018 Porsche 911 GT3???
Hey!! Why can't we get PTS matching calipers, steering wheel stripe, and Agatha Cognac finished interior? Guess you have to screw over the world with diesel-gate to qualify! http://www.carscoops.com/2017/04/fer...-in-first.html
Guess you have to screw over the world
with diesel-gate to qualify!
Ferdinand Karl Piëch is the most brilliant
member of the Porsche family since his
grandfather - Ferdinand Porsche. Nobody
got rich by selling this guy short. In the
article linked via 'CarScoops', it mentions
that:
"Despite Piech's fallout with key Volkswagen
executives and being pressured into selling
his 15 per cent stake in Porsche SE, the family
holding company that controls Volkswagen AG..."
The writers of this article have no clue
to the real story behind Piëch & the fallout.
This was the most profitable & greatest
'escape' trick ever pulled off in German
corporate history. In April 2015, Piëch
created a 'Crisis in Confidence' re: CEO
Winterkorn out of thin air, well before VW
admitted to the 'defeat device' to the US
authorities. He was then Chairman of the
Supervisory Board that overlooks the
Executive Board that actually runs the
VW Group. Piëch engineered his dramatic
exit on the condition that he would be
allowed to sell all of his shares (of both
Porsche SE & VW Group) at historical highs,
especially when you considered what
happened to the stock after September
of 2015.
Even today, after all the criminal investigations
in Germany & US since the scandal broke out,
Piëch has mostly avoided any serious legal
entaglements or liabilities. In the meantime,
his Porsche cousins (Wolfgang, etc) net worth
has declined by billions of Euros - and the family
is worth half what it had prior to Sept 2015.
This is the stuff of legends. And will be written
up in case histories to be taught at Harvard &
Wharton MBA schools in future years. And all
is proof positive that Ferdinand Karl Piëch simply
has no competition for smarts in that family...and
deserves his .2 991 gt3 in any color he would like,
blue-colored calipers et al.
Eduardo, do you have evidence that Piech sold his 14.7% of shares in Porsche SE for an above market valuation? The preferred shares are publicly traded and will largely go to his younger brother Hans at a market valuation close to $1.1 Billion. You are suggesting he has an agreement in place valuing those shares at the market value 2 years ago prior to the dieselgate sell off?
Are you further suggesting that Piech was directly involved in the diesel cheating activity, but managed thus far to avoid prosecutorial charges? And you are applauding this conduct and his profiting handsomely from it?
Eduardo, do you have evidence that Piech sold his 14.7%
of shares in Porsche SE for an above market valuation?
The preferred shares are publicly traded and will largely
go to his younger brother Hans at a market valuation
close to $1.1 Billion. You are suggesting he has an
agreement in place valuing those shares at the market
value 2 years ago prior to the dieselgate sell off?
Are you further suggesting that Piech was directly
involved in the diesel cheating activity, but managed
thus far to avoid prosecutorial charges?
That is not what I have posted. Take the time to read
the thread in full & all the linked articles from the German
press. It is a complicated subject & takes quite a bit of
time to digest every piece of evidence & news. And there
is more info that has come to light since I last posted on
this older thread. Remember, I am a fan of Piëch & not
a detractor. This post below might help you undertand
my thoughts on the matter:
***
Originally Posted by hfm
If he (Ferdinand Piëch) sold VW shares at the peak before (the)
over $23B VW market capitalization loss, I'd question if he did
this knowing what was about to take place.
Get in line, counselor! I have been asking that question since Oct 18th!
Originally Posted by hfm
As for Mr. Piëch, I simply don't know enough about him or what he
may or may not have done to form an opinion yet. The lawyer in me
questions the timing of his departure. Granted, he probably wasn't
expecting an ouster. But, it was rather convenient if he cashed out
when he did, wasn't it? Dan (holds Lutz in very low regard as you
may have guessed but, doesn't give Mr. Piëch a pass either)
Piëch not only expected his departure, he engineered it all with an
almost too perfect sense of timing!
Originally Posted by hfm
If that decision was based upon knowledge of the existence of defeat
device as opposed to wisdom, it begs the question, was this an insider
trade?
hfm: We don't yet what Ferdinand Piëch knew as fact back in April of
2015 when he resigned from the Supervisory Board where he served
as Chairman. But it strikes me suspicious that he left so unexpectedly
back then...which is the reason I started my original thread in May titled:
'More Information on the Resignation of Ferdinand Piëch from
the VW Supervisory Board!'
Not for one minute did I ever think he was outfoxed in April by CEO
Martin Winterkorn...or even his cousin Wolfgang Porsche. And it begs
the question as to what he was suspicious of that made him decide to
distance himself from the VW Group at that time.
Let me remind everyone of something that I have previously posted
here on Rennlist (Post #43 on page 3 of this thread) which I find...
interesting! It could also hold the key to the mystery of Ferdinand
Piëch's desire to leave his post back in April:
"One quote from Piëch during his last days has intrigued me from
the moment I read it in the fascinating account reported in 'Spiegel
Online' back in the Spring, which I posted on my original thread back
in May:
"Do you want my resignation? If you would like that,
then I will resign today. But I have to say, if that's the
case I will sell my shares."Ferdinand Piëch as quoted in
article found below:
Today, in retrospect, we might be looking at another brilliant move
from the most intellectually gifted of all the descendants of Ferdinand
Porsche Sr. If Piëch after his resignation in April was able to sell most,
if not all, of his personal VW shares ahead of the 'Dieselgate' scandal
when the stock price was at its yearly 'high', he might be the wealthiest
citizen of Germany, far richer than his cousin Wolfgang that took sides
against him & remained on the VW Supervisory Board. And that perhaps
why he was able to drive 'triumphantly' into Wolfsburg recently. Moral
of the story, don't ever bet against Ferdinand Piëch
As to insider trading...that is a thorny question to which we don't yet
have answers. But one thing is for sure, before he left his post, Piëch
told his Board he would sell his stock after he his departure. And if he
executed on that threat, that surely was a wise financial move on his
part! And sell is something he probably would NOT have been able to
do if he had remained on the VW Group's Supervisory Board! And if
he sold before Sept 18th, it might be hard to prove he had inside
knowledge of what a group of 'rogue' engineers were up to (if we
are to believe the VW company line).
But let me turn things around & ask you to imagine a different scenario
from what Cars Technica, Lutz and Slate have suggested, which paints
Ferdinand Piëch as the villain of the story. We heard initially that the
reason Piëch told Der Spiegel as to why he had lost confidence in
Winterkorn was related to the later handling of VW's problems in the
American market. For example, see this report dated 4/23/2015:
It was never truly made exactly clear as to what problems Piëch
was specifically referring to, but it opens up this possibility:
What if Ferdinand Piëch was upset because Martin Winterkorn
had not sufficiently informed the Supervisory Board of the issues
the EPA had been raising with VW since early in 2014? What if
Piëch was insisting that Winterkorn & VW take a pro-active role
in correcting whatever the technical issues were, and if necessary
do a total recall & stop sale of diesel engine cars, and solve the
'problem' before it could become a crisis of huge proportion for
VW, with also dire consequences for the fortunes of the Porsche/
Piëch family itself? What if his warnings & concerns were ignored
by Winterkorn and/or the other members of the Supervisory Board?*
Who is the villain now?
We will know soon enough what he knew & when. This is
now a full-blown criminal investigation in the US, Europe &
other parts of the world. We will have as evidence all the
minutes & discussions that the Supervisory Board had before,
& after, Ferdinand Piëch (with seemingly impeccable timing)
removed himself from the chairmanship of the body.
Keep tune to this story...it will get more interesting with
time, not less!
***
As to what Ferdinand Piëch did with his shares of VW & Porsche
Automobil Holding SE after his resignation in April, we really don't
yet know. But here is what was reported at the time back in May:
"The fact that Piëch has stepped down in no way means that he
will no longer have influence. Indeed, his threat to sell his shares
is already creating turbulence. But his shares are worth less than
many speculate. Piëch currently holds 13 percent of the common
shares in Porsche Automobile Holding. The mass-circulation daily
Bild recently estimated he could raise €21 billion by selling them,
but the real figure is only about €1.8 billion.
That relatively low price may not keep Piëch from selling. He's
more likely to be bothered by having to first offer his shares to
the rest of the family -- to whom he would reportedly be required
to sell them at a 25 percent discount compared to market prices.
That would require him to not hold a grudge, which, of course,
is something he's not very good at."
*This is not so far-fetched. I am still curious as to why
a veteran high official of Vokswagen, Winfried Vahland,
would resign his post just two weeks after his appointment
as head of the combined North American operation of
VW! And one possibility is that he didn't agree with the
manner in which the present Supervisory Board and
Management Board wanted to deal with the 'problem'.
And you are applauding this conduct and
his profiting handsomely from it?
I am applauding his intellect. Neither of us
know for a fact if he is in any way complicit
in 'Diesel-gate' as we know it. So far & to
my knowledge, he has not been charged with
any wrongdoing. I find the timing of his exit
simply brilliant. He sensed something was
wrong & made his move. And in the process
he protected all the net worth he had accumulated
over years of his involvement & hard work building
up the VW Group, which started after he was pushed
out of PAG in the mid-1970's.
In addition, he might have cashed out of his portion
of family shares in Porsche SE. Porsche SE was not
exactly in best of shape even back in early 2015
before Diesel-gate. As outsiders, we really don't
have the full story how the Porsche family weathered
the financial disaster of the Wiedeking attempted take-
over of VW years earlier. Billions of Euros were lost,
but who took the hit in the Porsche family? Yes, we
see the family's % ownership in VW Group via Porsche
SE after the 'merger'. But to do that, the Porsche family
had to give up all of their previous private wealth
(Salzburg Holding, etc) which was the basis for one
of the largest fortunes in Europe accumulated since
WWII. And that wealth now took anothe big hit after
Diesel-gate.
I would say that we know less than meets the eye
on all of these subjects. So, mcsmcs1, cast judgement
at your own risk...and please leave me out of the
judgemental game. We basically need to have much
more information before we even begin that 'trial'.
In the meantime, I am impressed by how Ferdinand
Piëch managed to extricate himself from the mess
before the s**t hit the fan!
Eduardo, lets try again shall we? On what do you base your claim that Piech sold his 14.7% of shares in Porsche SE for an above market valuation or as you stated, "at historic highs"?
On what do you base your claim
that Piech sold his 14.7% of shares
in Porsche SE for an above market
valuation or as you stated, "at historic
highs?"
I have not stated that he sold 'above market valuation'.
I used the term 'historic highs' as compared to 'historic
lows', meaning after the Diesel-Gate exploded in the news.
Here is what I posted:
"Piëch engineered his dramatic exit
on the condition that he would be
allowed to sell all of his shares (of both
Porsche SE & VW Group) at historical highs,
especially when you considered what
happened to the stock after September
of 2015."
If you need any further clarification, please contact my
lawyers at Dewey, Cheatem & Howe in Boston. I got
them on retainer.
Originally Posted by mcsmcs1
Eduardo, lets try again shall we?
We can go all day & all night.
I think I can outlast you. But
that is only a guess.
You are aware that his Porsche SE shares were sold to Hans Piech and other family members in April of 2017? The market value of $1.1 Billion is nowhere close to the historic high, and that's why what you wrote confuses me. You are making it sound as though he inked an agreement to sell the shares at a valuation consistent with the price in early 2015 ( prior to the diesel-gate fallout), but the transfer was deferred until 2 years later. I have followed this closely and can find no evidence to support your claim.
You are making it sound as though he inked an agreement
to sell the shares at a valuation consistent with the price in
early 2015 ( prior to the diesel-gate fallout), but the transfer
was deferred until 2 years later. I have followed this closely
and can find no evidence to support your claim.
You are interpreting what I wrote incorrectly. Furthermore,
in my old thread I wrote the following:
As to what Ferdinand Piëch did with his shares of VW & Porsche
Automobil Holding SE after his resignation in April, we really don't
yet know.
And I went on to link the source for that statement:
But here is what was reported at the time back in May:
"The fact that Piëch has stepped down in no way means that he
will no longer have influence. Indeed, his threat to sell his shares
is already creating turbulence. But his shares are worth less than
many speculate. Piëch currently holds 13 percent of the common
shares in Porsche Automobile Holding. The mass-circulation daily
Bild recently estimated he could raise €21 billion by selling them,
but the real figure is only about €1.8 billion.
That relatively low price may not keep Piëch from selling. He's
more likely to be bothered by having to first offer his shares to
the rest of the family -- to whom he would reportedly be required
to sell them at a 25 percent discount compared to market prices.
That would require him to not hold a grudge, which, of course,
is something he's not very good at."
So unlike you, I usually back my statements with sources.
Why don't you do all us favor (rather than posture, which
frankly doesn't help any of us) & tell us all you know about
the sale of Piech's VW shares (which you don't talk about),
as well as his Porsche SE shares, which you seem to know
something about. We are here to learn from each other.
And name your sources.
I don't think I am misinterpreting you at all nor am I trying to posture.
You posted, "Piëch engineered his dramatic exit
on the condition that he would be
allowed to sell all of his shares (of both
Porsche SE & VW Group) at historical highs..."
Ferdinand Piech sold his Porsche SE stake last month ( not when he exited the VW Chairman role in 2015) and you can read about it here:
He didn't sell at the historical highs. You actually cited a source which claimed that the family right of first refusal on Porsche SE shares required a 25% discount to market value. Either way, he didn't get out preceding the sell off nor anywhere near the top. I don't believe this was the brilliantly deft financial strategy you think it was.
I am not aware of a significant Piech direct stake in VW at the time he was removed from his Chairman role. I am happy to look into that and determine via public filings what the disposition timing and terms were.
I agree with Eduardo here. Pieech is the most brilliant member of the Porsche/Pieech clan since his grandfather.
This is also total speculation, but I bet he knew of the emissions software chicanery (but not necessarily authorized it), and realized the EPA was onto it and that VW neglected to rectify it, so he orchestrated his own ouster.
I don't think I am misinterpreting you at all
nor am I trying to posture.
You posted, "Piëch engineered his dramatic
exit on the condition that he would be
allowed to sell all of his shares (of both
Porsche SE & VW Group) at historical highs..."
Ferdinand Piech sold his Porsche SE stake last
month ( not when he exited the VW Chairman
role in 2015) and you can read about it here:
He didn't sell at the historical highs. You actually
cited a source which claimed that the family right
of first refusal on Porsche SE shares required a 25%
discount to market value. Either way, he didn't get
out preceding the sell off nor anywhere near the top.
I don't believe this was the brilliantly deft financial
strategy you think it was.
I am not aware of a significant Piech direct stake in
VW at the time he was removed from his Chairman
role. I am happy to look into that and determine via
public filings what the disposition timing and terms
were.
I see now what you are hung up with. When I wrote:
"Piëch engineered his dramatic exit on the condition
that he would be allowed to sell all of his shares (of
both Porsche SE & VW Group) at historical highs..."
I should have put period after (of both Porsche SE &
VW Group). Then continued with. 'I believe those
sales might have been at 'historical highs' in relationship
to what happened to those prices after Diesel-gate became
public. Sorry couselor if I confused you to the point you
had this hissy-fit in public over my imprecise language.
As for your grand statement that:
"I am not aware of a significant Piech direct stake in VW
at the time he was removed from his Chairman role. I
am happy to look into that and determine via public filings
what the disposition timing and terms were.',
Yes, please follow up on that. And then come back to us here
with your findings, Sherlock! If an executive like Piëch, who has
has worked for the VW Group in significant management positions
(starting at Audi) since the early 1970's, rising to CEO & then
Chairman of the Supervisory Board, doesn't have a significant
stake in the shares of that company at the time of his resignation
in April of 2015, well let us say that would 'unusual' in our
capitalist world. And when Piëch told the VW Group board
the following, as quoted in Spiegel:
I bet he was mostly referring to HIS VW Group stock shares.
The VW Board could care less if Ferdinand or his brother own
that 14.7% of Porsche SE. It's a zero-sum game for the VW
Board. Because of the VW Act, neither Porsche SE nor the
Porsche Piëch family 'controls' the VW Group, regardless of
their 50+% hold in stock, due to the State of Lower Saxony's
20.2% ownership & its special voting rights. So that is not,
in my opinion, what Ferdinand Piëch was talking about when
he told the Board:
"Do you want my resignation? If you would like that, then I
will resign today. But I have to say, if that's the case I will
sell my shares."
And if Piëch sold the VW Group shares that he owned at the
time he gave up his role as Chairman of the Supervisory Board
prior to September 2015, he might have indeed hit one of the
biggest financial home runs in German history! But you, mcsmcs1,
might start a new path of verbal litigation here at Rennlist claiming
that baseball is not played in Germany so a 'home run' is meaningless
in das vaterland. So I look forward to that debate next!
Yes, there has been many articles critical of Ferdinand Piëch tenure at
the VW Group. And whether he was the spiritual father, for lack of a
better term, of Diesel-gate. Back in the fall of 2015 in my original thread,
we in fact discussed Mr. Lutz statements. And you will read my response
to what he wrote highlighted in 'Green' below:
Originally Posted by Z356
...For the sake of making it easy on our readers, let me post here the
contents of Bob Lutz 'opinion' from his regular column on Road & Track:
"Ferdinand Piëch, the immensely powerful former chief of Volkswagen's supervisory board,
is more than likely the root cause of the VW diesel-emissions scandal. Whether he specifically
asked for, tacitly approved, or was even aware of the company's use of software to deliberately
fudge EPA emissions testing is immaterial.
I sat next to him at an industry dinner in the Nineties, just after the fourth-generation Golf had
debuted at the Frankfurt show. I told him, "I'd like to congratulate you on the new Golf. First of
all, it's a nice-looking car, but God, those body fits!"
"Yeah. I wish we could get close to that at Chrysler."
"I'll give you the recipe. I called all the body engineers, stamping people, manufacturing, and
executives into my conference room. And I said, 'I am tired of all these lousy body fits. You
have six weeks to achieve world-class body fits. I have all your names. If we do not have
good body fits in six weeks, I will replace all of you. Thank you for your time today.' "
"That's how you did it?"
"Yes. And it worked."
That's the way he ran everything. It's what I call a reign of terror and a culture where performance
was driven by fear and intimidation. He just says, "You will sell diesels in the U.S., and you will not
fail. Do it, or I'll find somebody who will." The guy was absolutely brutal.
I imagine that at some point, the VW engineering team said to Piëch, "We don't know how to pass
the emissions test with the hardware we have." The reply, in that culture, most likely was, "You will
pass! I demand it! Or I'll find someone who can do it!"
In these situations, your choice was immediate dismissal or find a way to pass the test and pay the
consequences later. Human nature being what it is—if it's lose your job today for sure or lose your
job maybe a year from now, we always pick maybe a year from now.
That management style gets short-term results, but it's a culture that's extremely dangerous. Look
at dictators. Dictators invariably wind up destroying the very countries they thought their omniscience
and omnipotence would make great. It's fast and it's efficient, but at huge risk.
This diesel fiasco is immeasurable in terms of damages—so much worse than Toyota acceleration,
Ford Firestone tires, or GM ignition switches. In all those cases, tragically, people died, but it wasn't
premeditated. You settle with the victims' families, pay the fine, put in the new parts, and for $1.5
billion, it can all be contained. But this Volkswagen mess is like the disaster that keeps on giving.
To make the cars legal in the U.S., VW will need to program them with the software that passes the
test, in which case, performance is down and fuel consumption is up, and every VW TDI owner is part
of a class-action suit against Volkswagen. To retrofit a urea system is basically a nonstarter, as it would
require far too much change.
There is no easy fix. But you can probably rely on the German government to do what is necessary to
pull Volkswagen out of this crisis. In terms of marketing cars in the U.S., Volkswagen will need a radically
new array of products that are much closer to mainstream American tastes than what it has. The whole
Clean Diesel campaign, as the foundation of the VW brand, cannot be resurrected. It's history.
*
Bob Lutz has been The Man at several car companies, so your problems are cake. Bring 'em on.
*
MY comment: We really don't know enough of Piëch role in 'Dieselgate' to make this kind of accusation.
This is a cheap shot by someone that should know better than be this reckless with his words. And he
should be reprimanded for making this dramatic conjecture from rather flimsy evidence - an innocuous
dinner conversation with Ferdinand Piëch back when the latter was in active management at the VW
Group - way before he became the Chairman of the Supervisory Board and quite a distance from what
the diesel engineers were up to in recent years! I hope this libelous 'piece of cake' smacks him in the face
at some future point in time!
*
This is not the first attempt to tar the image of Ferdinand Piëch and assign blame directly to him
in the press in recent weeks!
*
And it is going to get worse. The liberal press thinks of the 'Conservative Right' as modern day '*****'.
But in their bias, they forget that they latter's actual name was 'Nationalist Socialists' & they considered
themselves back then progressive Socialists. Unfortunately for Volkswagen, 'Dieselgate' affords the left
a fat, juicy target - a story of pollution, corporate cheating & of majority shareholders that indeed had
a past history with the '*****'. And the 'drive-by' will find it impossible to resist making hay of these
'facts' because they combine all the elements the Left love to demonize today - 'bad actors' polluting
our environment, corporate malfeasance, the undeserving 1% super-rich and a connection to the only
evil person they acknowledge has ever existed - Adolph Hitler. And what do you know? He was Austrian
too! Picture perfect for a docudrama on MSNBC hosted by John Harwood!
Saludos,
Eduardo (thank you for that concession and may your mind explore other interesting aspects of this
extraordinary story which is unraveling right before our eyes as we live through its early history!)
Of particular importance, I think, is that I began this thread PRIOR
to the public announcements of Diesel-gate which came later, in
September of 2015. Upon reading the details of Ferdinand Piëch
resignation from Chairman of the Supervisory Board in April 2015,
I was frankly shocked. This was not the Ferdinand Piëch I knew....
the unbeatable businessman that never gave up. So it sparked
an interest as to why Piëch would do what he did (& how he did
it) in the Spring of 2015. Upon the explosion of Diesel-gate in
September of that year, I revived the thread & started trying to
connect the dots.
I have not dwelled on the matter in recent years. As soon as I have
time, I will investigate further what has happened in the intervening
1 1/2 years. Right now I am just back from a trip to Europe, plus
I am in the middle of negotiating the purchase of my first Ferrari.
But as soon as I can make time, I'll investigate further...and from
my own perspective, which still believes Ferdinand Piëch will have
the last laugh in this whole saga!
I still think that the definitive book on both the Wiedeking-led
attempted take-over of the VW Group by Porsche has not been
written. And that also applies to Ferdinand Piëch exit strategy
from the VW Group in April of 2015. I have urged folks like
Pete Stout (presently at 000) & Dieter Landenberger (Leiter
Historisches Archiv/PAG) to write these stories. Pete for sure
has the independence to do it. And I believe Dieter will have
the ability to also write that story if/when he retires from the
VW Group.
Saludos,
Eduardo
Scottsdale, AZ
Last edited by Z356; 05-03-2017 at 01:22 PM.
Reason: spelling / past tense re: 'dwell'
05-02-2017, 11:28 AM
Ferdinand Piech Rides Shotgun In First PTS 2018 Porsche 911 GT3???
- I agree spill the beans mcsmcs1
