McLaren Success
05-08-2017, 02:41 PM
#886
What do people call the current Porsche Turbo models? Oh yeah, an appliance
The quest from automakers to provide added speed with increased detachment from the road (electric steering, magnetic ride control, active steering, double clutch automatics, etc) is not making for more enjoyable cars...
The best "modern" car I've driven recently is a Ferrari Scuderia....because of the exposure to the elements and the bang-bang of the single clutch. You felt like you were doing 120 mph instead of 60.
05-08-2017, 07:04 PM
#887
Drifting
Surprising that within VAG there aren't group-wide rules against shenanigans if what you say is accurate. Doesn't lambo's little trick have the potential to affect Porsche image?... or maybe (getting real conspiratorial here) as the 918 was already sold, VAG gave lambo a chance to prop up its SV image with that record time in order to boost sales there?
There are no rules when it comes to Ring lap times. There is no governing body regulating on what the manufacturers can or cannot do. So that's why when you see a manufacturer's claimed ring lap times, you need to do more analysis and see if it makes sense. If you look at Huracan's lap record, Jim G made some direct comments about that. Lamborghini did release a full telemetry, indicating the video was not doctored and the lap time is real. Of course it's real! But what Lamborghini and Pirelli refuse to disclose is that the Huracan was running "special" tires.
For example, Porsche has been very honest (and often, very conservative) when it comes ring lap times and performance. So when Porsche makes an attempt at the Ring, it's well respected among the various manufacturers within the industry, because everyone know Porsche doesn't f*ck around. Of course, when various magazines do their own instrumented tests (both against the clock and against other competitions), people eventually will find out if Porsche's own claim is true or not. (eg. Aventador SV lap times outside of the Ring never stacked up against the P1/918 anywhere else).
I was at Geneva Auto Show this year and I asked Dr. Walliser what his opinion of the Huracan Performante's lap record was, he just shrugged and said "I would like to have my lap record back!" Andy, who was standing next to him, made the smirk remark "Looks like Lamborghini pulled a Pagani!"
05-08-2017, 08:26 PM
#888
Race Director
Originally Posted by Shark
LOL.....cars like the Miura, Countach, or Diablo are every bit as iconic as Ferrari offerings over the same time period with only the F40 as an exception.....sure seems like a first tier competitor
Now, with new huracan putting up a serious number, lambo is upping it's performance cred instead of its Versace cred.. could start attracting the track day crowd over the nose-skiing crowd.
No doubt the Miura and countach were iconic... but never on a racetrack.
05-08-2017, 08:34 PM
#889
Race Director
So true. My GT3 on the street is just scratching the surface. I love driving it, but it is more of a sense of occasion. On the track the sum of all those capabilities come together, and only then do you truly understand what you own. You just can't see how it all comes together on the street. And even if you only did it once...bucket list!
05-08-2017, 08:46 PM
#890
I had a 570 for a while and it was pretty unexciting in normal mode, but hyperactive in track. Huracan (test-drive only) was the same. When you are driving round normally, you could be in any car, but the track mode is over the top for the road. Porsches don't generally have that trait to such an extent, and are more engaging at all speeds, IMO.
I ultimately felt like there was a more synthetic layer between my inputs and the Mac, than there normally is in a Porsche.
I've also been in 675LTs been driven by others, and there's no doubt the car helps even out the inputs and correct mistakes without losing the time that you would in an RS. (Obviously all modern cars have electronic inputs to an extent, even when systems are supposedly 'off').
I ultimately felt like there was a more synthetic layer between my inputs and the Mac, than there normally is in a Porsche.
I've also been in 675LTs been driven by others, and there's no doubt the car helps even out the inputs and correct mistakes without losing the time that you would in an RS. (Obviously all modern cars have electronic inputs to an extent, even when systems are supposedly 'off').
05-09-2017, 12:19 AM
#891
Yea, so we aren't discussing "iconic" or anything nostalgic.. just pure performance and sales numbers. 458 and Ferrari v8 predecessors outsold lambo's, lambo's had $$$ off sticker, same goes for v12's. Reason usually revolved around performance and technology perception built into Ferrari. Lambo's seen as south beach cruisers more than true performance.. drive a Murcielago on track, or even an aventador before the new S with rear wheel steering and you'll see what I mean.
No doubt the Miura and countach were iconic... but never on a racetrack.
No doubt the Miura and countach were iconic... but never on a racetrack.
Just because a Lamborghini has a different focus from a Ferrari, doesn't make Lamborghini anything but a world class manufacturer of exclusive sportscars.
05-09-2017, 01:32 AM
#892
Race Director
Originally Posted by Shark
Well performance-wise, the pre-Audi V-12s were more than a match for the Ferraris of the period. Yes, sales wise Ferraris are much more common....which has nothing to do with designating a manufacturer as FIRST tier....or then the Corvette would be a first tier sportscar which is better than a Ferrari because they sell more.
Just because a Lamborghini has a different focus from a Ferrari, doesn't make Lamborghini anything but a world class manufacturer of exclusive sportscars.
Just because a Lamborghini has a different focus from a Ferrari, doesn't make Lamborghini anything but a world class manufacturer of exclusive sportscars.
05-09-2017, 03:09 AM
#893
True, except I think one of the appeals of cars like the Speciale and LT are that they offer some drama, even at normal road speeds. This whole debate is making me wonder whether exotic supercars are becoming too soft in the quest for daily driveability. They are, after all, weekend toys for most owners.
But I do have a roof scoop that brings in a lot more induction noise, turbo nosie, and exhaust noises than the normal LT.
05-09-2017, 03:12 AM
#894
Go into the gutter? Unfortunately, I made a mistake on the name of the track. But it doesn't change the fact that his DRS failed on a track and if weren't for his excellent driving skills, the car would have crashed. Why would I know this? A friend of mine was riding shotgun with him when this happened.
Look, the car industry/community is quite small. I build cars with SEMA and have a lot of friends within Mclaren/Porsche and VAG. Mclaren has reliability issues with the P1, but this doesn't mean Porsche and LaF is problem free either with their 918/LaF. But the reason why I called CJ out on is because most P1 owners have never admitted these issues publicly and I always found that fascinating. The 918 certainly had their issues as well, but Porsche and their owners had always been very up front about it.
When you pull stunts like running "special tires" on the Aventador SV, for example, people in the industry will know and talk about it. Anybody who has any experience with the SV on the track will know it was a marketing stunt and the SV is no where near anywhere as fast a P1 or the 918 on any other track in the world, without Lambo's "special tires."
Look, the car industry/community is quite small. I build cars with SEMA and have a lot of friends within Mclaren/Porsche and VAG. Mclaren has reliability issues with the P1, but this doesn't mean Porsche and LaF is problem free either with their 918/LaF. But the reason why I called CJ out on is because most P1 owners have never admitted these issues publicly and I always found that fascinating. The 918 certainly had their issues as well, but Porsche and their owners had always been very up front about it.
When you pull stunts like running "special tires" on the Aventador SV, for example, people in the industry will know and talk about it. Anybody who has any experience with the SV on the track will know it was a marketing stunt and the SV is no where near anywhere as fast a P1 or the 918 on any other track in the world, without Lambo's "special tires."
I had a complaint, as well as a few owners.. what did McLaren do? They held a dinner for a group of us with the NA President to address our concerns. They were also pretty up front with the issues surrounding their cars.
05-09-2017, 03:18 AM
#895
Platinum Dealership
Rennlist
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I'm not sure how we are comparing the diablo to a 550 maranello to a mclaren 720S now but here is something topical-
Vintage cars are more fun under 80mph than almost anything.
Don't believe me? Go slam on the brakes in a 356. Count! Then let me know how many times you said "oh crap I'm dead" before the car slowed.
New supercars, (this is an opinion) are largely miserable to city drive. This is the one key to McLaren's different modes. They're more liveable because of the suspension tech than any car up or down price wise.
Driving a GT3 is awesome. On a windy road. On a nice highway. On a track. On PCH. But it's not as nice through downtown.
The McLaren's just barely allow you to survive the urban assault in comfort mode, and you keep all your teeth to smile through the hills or the fun drives.
Either way- almost every car is compromised. The 720S will have some just like any other car. I know we are on a porsche forum but for those of us who have driven over rail road tracks in a 458 and a 650S...there is NO WAY you can tell me that a 458 feels more solid. They feel like their chassis is about to disintegrate.
Vintage cars are more fun under 80mph than almost anything.
Don't believe me? Go slam on the brakes in a 356. Count! Then let me know how many times you said "oh crap I'm dead" before the car slowed.
New supercars, (this is an opinion) are largely miserable to city drive. This is the one key to McLaren's different modes. They're more liveable because of the suspension tech than any car up or down price wise.
Driving a GT3 is awesome. On a windy road. On a nice highway. On a track. On PCH. But it's not as nice through downtown.
The McLaren's just barely allow you to survive the urban assault in comfort mode, and you keep all your teeth to smile through the hills or the fun drives.
Either way- almost every car is compromised. The 720S will have some just like any other car. I know we are on a porsche forum but for those of us who have driven over rail road tracks in a 458 and a 650S...there is NO WAY you can tell me that a 458 feels more solid. They feel like their chassis is about to disintegrate.
05-09-2017, 09:25 AM
#896
On McLarenLife... people are pretty up front about the problems. And their complaints.
I had a complaint, as well as a few owners.. what did McLaren do? They held a dinner for a group of us with the NA President to address our concerns. They were also pretty up front with the issues surrounding their cars.
I had a complaint, as well as a few owners.. what did McLaren do? They held a dinner for a group of us with the NA President to address our concerns. They were also pretty up front with the issues surrounding their cars.
The only automatic, turbo car I'd consider is the LT w/ the roof scoop. A nod to the grand-daddy F1....it's a win in my book
if prices of the LT/roof scoop drop to 300-200K range--I might bite
05-09-2017, 10:55 AM
#897
Drifting
First of all, you are absolutely correct. The 918 program was a success and they were all sold. The 918 VIP program, despite all the hatred here on Rennlist, is a major success in the eyes of the Porsche board. Because of the VIP program, the 918 owners are not just buying all the new models, but they are also spending a ton of $$$ on PTS and CXX options.
There are no rules when it comes to Ring lap times. There is no governing body regulating on what the manufacturers can or cannot do. So that's why when you see a manufacturer's claimed ring lap times, you need to do more analysis and see if it makes sense. If you look at Huracan's lap record, Jim G made some direct comments about that. Lamborghini did release a full telemetry, indicating the video was not doctored and the lap time is real. Of course it's real! But what Lamborghini and Pirelli refuse to disclose is that the Huracan was running "special" tires.
For example, Porsche has been very honest (and often, very conservative) when it comes ring lap times and performance. So when Porsche makes an attempt at the Ring, it's well respected among the various manufacturers within the industry, because everyone know Porsche doesn't f*ck around. Of course, when various magazines do their own instrumented tests (both against the clock and against other competitions), people eventually will find out if Porsche's own claim is true or not. (eg. Aventador SV lap times outside of the Ring never stacked up against the P1/918 anywhere else).
I was at Geneva Auto Show this year and I asked Dr. Walliser what his opinion of the Huracan Performante's lap record was, he just shrugged and said "I would like to have my lap record back!" Andy, who was standing next to him, made the smirk remark "Looks like Lamborghini pulled a Pagani!"
There are no rules when it comes to Ring lap times. There is no governing body regulating on what the manufacturers can or cannot do. So that's why when you see a manufacturer's claimed ring lap times, you need to do more analysis and see if it makes sense. If you look at Huracan's lap record, Jim G made some direct comments about that. Lamborghini did release a full telemetry, indicating the video was not doctored and the lap time is real. Of course it's real! But what Lamborghini and Pirelli refuse to disclose is that the Huracan was running "special" tires.
For example, Porsche has been very honest (and often, very conservative) when it comes ring lap times and performance. So when Porsche makes an attempt at the Ring, it's well respected among the various manufacturers within the industry, because everyone know Porsche doesn't f*ck around. Of course, when various magazines do their own instrumented tests (both against the clock and against other competitions), people eventually will find out if Porsche's own claim is true or not. (eg. Aventador SV lap times outside of the Ring never stacked up against the P1/918 anywhere else).
I was at Geneva Auto Show this year and I asked Dr. Walliser what his opinion of the Huracan Performante's lap record was, he just shrugged and said "I would like to have my lap record back!" Andy, who was standing next to him, made the smirk remark "Looks like Lamborghini pulled a Pagani!"
Explain the stack of computers in the 918 seat - asked in several threads forums yet no response oh and how many race techs cars were there at the ring that day. 918 was fast at the track Viper is faster as is the Huracan and SV with Trofeo's those are all facts. Anytime you would like to meet me with my SV against your 918 let me know I can also bring the Viper
SV - was not doctored one car a few guys in fact it could have it run faster and they were told to ho go home before they beat the 918 and with Trofeo's could have really beat the 918 but they weren't ready yet.
The Huracan and or Jim G the highest human seeking attention on the internet backed off his Huarcan statement as Lambo HQ showed everyone they will receive the same car that ran at the ring. Jim actually made himself look silly which seemed just slightly opportunistic.
Get over your 918 energizer bunny - it was a failure so they offered all the next new models to help sell and added lease programs if you see that as a success because Porsche and every other luxury factory are doing well that's just a sign of the times. I don't hate the 918 inasmuch the private owners group to hide the good bad ugly of the 918 even more so the fake stories - it's no longer first let's move on!
McLaren thread - at least the owner and experiences are honest.
McLaren P1 sells for over 2M
La Ferrari 4 - 5m
918 1.2 - 1.6
Bottom of the hyper car food chain - for good reason.
Back to McLaren
05-09-2017, 11:09 AM
#898
Drifting
Go into the gutter? Unfortunately, I made a mistake on the name of the track. But it doesn't change the fact that his DRS failed on a track and if weren't for his excellent driving skills, the car would have crashed. Why would I know this? A friend of mine was riding shotgun with him when this happened.
Look, the car industry/community is quite small. I build cars with SEMA and have a lot of friends within Mclaren/Porsche and VAG. Mclaren has reliability issues with the P1, but this doesn't mean Porsche and LaF is problem free either with their 918/LaF. But the reason why I called CJ out on is because most P1 owners have never admitted these issues publicly and I always found that fascinating. The 918 certainly had their issues as well, but Porsche and their owners had always been very up front about it.
When you pull stunts like running "special tires" on the Aventador SV, for example, people in the industry will know and talk about it. Anybody who has any experience with the SV on the track will know it was a marketing stunt and the SV is no where near anywhere as fast a P1 or the 918 on any other track in the world, without Lambo's "special tires."
Look, the car industry/community is quite small. I build cars with SEMA and have a lot of friends within Mclaren/Porsche and VAG. Mclaren has reliability issues with the P1, but this doesn't mean Porsche and LaF is problem free either with their 918/LaF. But the reason why I called CJ out on is because most P1 owners have never admitted these issues publicly and I always found that fascinating. The 918 certainly had their issues as well, but Porsche and their owners had always been very up front about it.
When you pull stunts like running "special tires" on the Aventador SV, for example, people in the industry will know and talk about it. Anybody who has any experience with the SV on the track will know it was a marketing stunt and the SV is no where near anywhere as fast a P1 or the 918 on any other track in the world, without Lambo's "special tires."
As far as CJ with McLaren could say the same but in multiples with the 918 owners.
Track times SV stunts - look I met and spoke with the guys at Lamborghini and what you state is just not true. One of their top guys is from Ferrari if you want stories then listen to Ferrari's times - difference is Ferrari does not need to boast about ring times to sell cars. Lamborghini is faster than Porsche all day every day it's a fact and there are now two models that proved it. Lamborghini will get faster there will be more models in both the Huracan and Aventador also expect new tires to again bury the 918 even further in the books just like the Viper did on 10+ tracks.
The 918 is what it is - old news.
05-09-2017, 12:00 PM
#899
Burning Brakes
The 918 launch was not a success it was the 918 VIP program which made it work. I and a few colleagues have been offered 918s in the last few weeks with delivery miles, but since the VIP program does not transfer they are not selling.
The LaF and P1 did not need any VIP program.
The LaF and P1 did not need any VIP program.
05-09-2017, 12:54 PM
#900
I'm not sure how we are comparing the diablo to a 550 maranello to a mclaren 720S now but here is something topical-
Vintage cars are more fun under 80mph than almost anything.
Don't believe me? Go slam on the brakes in a 356. Count! Then let me know how many times you said "oh crap I'm dead" before the car slowed.
.
Vintage cars are more fun under 80mph than almost anything.
Don't believe me? Go slam on the brakes in a 356. Count! Then let me know how many times you said "oh crap I'm dead" before the car slowed.
.
Cars like the Diablo, 355, and 550 Maranello are certainly not the woefully compromised 356 that you mention (as some of us know of a fatal accident from earlier this year) that is not well suited for modern traffic. These cars are fun at any speed, and are in no danger of being overtaken by a Honda Odyssey.
Modern supercars are turning into high speed, high tech, and high comfort appliances, isolating the drivers as much as possible. This is why the 570S was so well reviewed, it added a little old school back. The same way the 991.2 GT3 will be a hit, by giving back the transmission choice that will help with driver involvement.