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Thanks Jamie. I am just thinking about this from a strategy point of view. I imagine there will be baseline numbers so we can determine how much damage may have occurred before using the logger. If this data could be used to initiate a compression test, which then shows something is going on, it would be valuable in getting whatever work needs to be done under warranty.
The idea is to start with each owner doing a relative comparison over a relatively long time period (once a month, once an oil change etc...). We can absolutely compare among one another and we encourage it. Once we have it together I'll get a bunch of data as crank case vacuum varies with engine load, so we'll likely use two sets of data, warm idle, 3000rpm flat highway cruise and possible some full throttle pulls if they're indicative...
Originally Posted by qbix
Are those followers going to be tested in the engine and evaluated whether they do the job?
What company does make them?
My car is always the first one, it's why I kept my 2014 hand grenade...
Originally Posted by bronson7
Very interesting info. I'm not educated enough in this field so how does one attach this or does one need someone with specific knowledge to do it?
Kind of like oil analysis, you don't need to be a chemist to use the data, you need to look at the relative changes, and we'll be here to help!
Originally Posted by Waxer
What will be the cost of the Data logger and the "fix" as to materials and labor?
Still too early to say definitively. Once we have the logger all together and tested we'll be able to put the pricing together. The hardware with OBDII logging functions will be available, we'll also offer various firmware downloads; engine health monitor pack, track pack (will offer after the engine health monitor)
The finger follower/cam wear parts are still being finished and then we'll fit to my car documenting the entire process. If we can get it together in time I may try to bring the car to the smokies event.
Originally Posted by Waxer
Jamie: I'm a little unclear here. Is it remaining a hydraulic system or going solid?
It's definitely solid, hydraulic lifters are a big part of the issue due to the variable oil pressure in the GT3's
Originally Posted by robmypro
I found this photo, which appears to confirm my thoughts on the oil sprayer. Note how the far side does not have the brass fittings near the valves, while the near side does. Assuming those are the oil sprayers, my first question would be "why did Porsche not have oil sprayers on the intake side from day one?"
My second question is "why didn't they add this to future head versions once the problem was known?"
Is there a problem introducing oil to the intake side like they do the exhaust side?
The exhaust side is hotter, that is why Porsche only did sprayers on the exhaust side. Sprayers don't really help if there is no lash (space) between the finger follower and the cam for an oil film to form. This is where the issue originates. Our solution is to control the space (lash) between the cam and finger using a solid lash adjuster. To further ensure oil film stability we're adding an oiling path for the fingers to directly oil the cam/finger interface.
Originally Posted by Waxer
Was the lobe wear seen in past on the exhaust lobes or intake too?
I believe both intake and exhaust have been effected, I'll have to check the pictures I have...
The first use of the logger will be for crank case pressure (vacuum) monitoring to log the health of the 991 GT3/RS engines. As the cam/finger followers wear, the metal debris is circulated through the engine and piston ring/cylinder seal will be compromised far earlier than when the car throws a misfire code.
Curious if you've read the Bosch Motronic MED 17.1 technical manuals? And wondering if you could just extract the per cylinder roughness values and misfire counters prior to any CEL? Those should start showing statistically relevant deviations long before the crankcase pressure changes? The duration of ignition should start skewing almost immediately if the coating is wearing away?
Curious if you've read the Bosch Motronic MED 17.1 technical manuals? And wondering if you could just extract the per cylinder roughness values and misfire counters prior to any CEL? Those should start showing statistically relevant deviations long before the crankcase pressure changes? The duration of ignition should start skewing almost immediately if the coating is wearing away?
Absolutely. No limits on what can be read. If its transmitted I think it can be read. But it comes down to what data becomes meaningful if the engine was to fail.
From what I have been told, this is not so much a warning if the followers are wearing, but the condition of the engine due to the follower problem, either before or after the warranty ends.
Regardless of what data is recorded, its thought that Porsche will do nothing until the CEL light comes on. Then it seems they only replace the Cylinder head and Valve train parts. All of that trash is still in the engine. Some trash would have or could have damaged the Rings and bearings etc., and some will be removed with the oil change. Some may be trapped in the engine. This is fine metallic dust that can block oil galleys, wear away the ring seal, score the Piston skirts and cylinder walls, and sandwich itself between the Crankshaft journals and the bearings.
Hopefully nothing is damaged, but in the event that some internal part may have, if the engine was to fail after the warranty period ends the owner has some fall back data to use in demanding an engine rebuild on Porsche.
Presently, you have nothing to show the damage was caused and happening during the warranty period.
Simple and cheap insurance on an expensive engine.
Curious if you've read the Bosch Motronic MED 17.1 technical manuals? And wondering if you could just extract the per cylinder roughness values and misfire counters prior to any CEL? Those should start showing statistically relevant deviations long before the crankcase pressure changes? The duration of ignition should start skewing almost immediately if the coating is wearing away?
Can certainly add it, just will have to caution owners not to read too much into it until a large amount of data has been gathered for it. Is also useful and helpful data to have...
Does your fix alter the 9000k redline in any way? Where will the hotter cams
impact the power curve? Do you have any installation partners in the San Diego area? Very interested based the on going testing results. Thanks.
Jamie
I asked the guys that do my oil analysis if they could detect ceramic in the oil and they said no. Not sure if Blackstone can read it. I have had all of my oil analyzed since new so I have a track record. Just wish ceramic particles were on the list.
Does your fix alter the 9000k redline in any way? Where will the hotter cams
impact the power curve? Do you have any installation partners in the San Diego area? Very interested based the on going testing results. Thanks.
The cams with additional lift and duration will impact the curve just about everywhere, ideally we couple this with a tune to take the most advantage of them. The 9000RPM redline would remain unchanged. Once we have the parts installed and tested then we can start figuring out logistics. Ship the car to Gig Harbor and drive home?
Originally Posted by SmokinGTS
Jamie
I asked the guys that do my oil analysis if they could detect ceramic in the oil and they said no. Not sure if Blackstone can read it. I have had all of my oil analyzed since new so I have a track record. Just wish ceramic particles were on the list.
It's hard to see silicon carbide in a sea of silicon and carbon. This is why we wanted to get something together that gives additional data points.
Hi Fred, this is going to be some machine work in the head required, a pretty involved install, (timing cam shafts, inspecting the rest of the engine for wear etc...). In the short term will be North America only for testing, but we have friendly shops around the world that are competent to do this work and we'll be working with them!
Thanks Jamie and sorry for the slow response. I discovered I was quite seriously ill the day after I asked that question. Fortunately all fixed.
Understood on the machining. Hopefully we would be able to pick up on the monitoring system before then though.
Jamie
Is it possible to easily remove the valve cover and see the wear on the followers. What is involved in an inspection to see how much wear we have. Do you have an estimate on labor time. Thx
Thanks Jamie and sorry for the slow response. I discovered I was quite seriously ill the day after I asked that question. Fortunately all fixed.
Understood on the machining. Hopefully we would be able to pick up on the monitoring system before then though.
Thanks
Fred
Fred, glad you're feeling better!
We should be able to see it coming by monitoring the crank case pressure and the cylinder roughness/misfire counts as suggested. I just got the traces done and we're working on adding them early next week.
Originally Posted by SmokinGTS
Jamie
Is it possible to easily remove the valve cover and see the wear on the followers. What is involved in an inspection to see how much wear we have. Do you have an estimate on labor time. Thx
It is, it's a bit tricky, I'll ask Charles what his thoughts on other shops doing it and time estimates on it.
We should be able to see it coming by monitoring the crank case pressure and the cylinder roughness/misfire counts as suggested. I just got the traces done and we're working on adding them early next week.
Cheers Jamie, nothing like the C word to focus your attention on what is important! Health care has been brilliant though.
All sounds good, although we are at cross purposes, I meant hopefully in the UK we could pick up on the monitoring hardware too.
02-26-2017, 03:06 PM
