Why did they limit the production of the 911 R?
10-16-2016, 04:21 PM
#46
In Porsche's eyes, the 911R isn't for everyone, they built it to beta test the manual transmission for the next GT3, and sell the cars to the 918 owners to test them.
918 owners won't bitch much if at all if there are any problems, they will just drive another car.
The markup on the car is insane simply because most people think of it wrong, they think it's a car they can flip. That's why they all want one to flip. And hence the inflated 2nd hand price.
Seriously, had Porsche didn't limit the production of the R, the price will not be above MSRP ever. It's just a beta car after all.
99% of the people who wants one wants it for the wrong reason, they just wanted one to flip, either immediately or down the road. If they are actually serious about what the car represent, they won't even buy the R and go straight ahead to the next GT3.
918 owners won't bitch much if at all if there are any problems, they will just drive another car.
The markup on the car is insane simply because most people think of it wrong, they think it's a car they can flip. That's why they all want one to flip. And hence the inflated 2nd hand price.
Seriously, had Porsche didn't limit the production of the R, the price will not be above MSRP ever. It's just a beta car after all.
99% of the people who wants one wants it for the wrong reason, they just wanted one to flip, either immediately or down the road. If they are actually serious about what the car represent, they won't even buy the R and go straight ahead to the next GT3.
Not so sure they built it for beta testing but completely agree that there are a lot of people buying modern GT/RS/r for the wrong reasons.
10-16-2016, 04:25 PM
#47
What do you make of Audi leaving LMP1? May signal a change in the direction of the Audi brand.
In some markets Volkswagen has moved down market, or at least some cars like the Jetta have. Probably partly to make room for cars like the Audi A3 and A4.
They need to avoid going down the route General Motors chose in the 1980s. Depending on how the emissions scandal impacts their finances they may end up going down that path without any choice in the matter.
In some markets Volkswagen has moved down market, or at least some cars like the Jetta have. Probably partly to make room for cars like the Audi A3 and A4.
They need to avoid going down the route General Motors chose in the 1980s. Depending on how the emissions scandal impacts their finances they may end up going down that path without any choice in the matter.
Passat is a very strong competitor for 5 series/ A6 in Europe. When it comes to the VW golf there is almost no competition . In the US VW is more like Seat or Skoda is in Europe.
10-16-2016, 08:32 PM
#49
[QUOTE=Stgrt;13679404]Certainly not the entire lineup but just the top of the line like what they did with the 997.2 GT3 RS to 991 GT3 RS. Then they could also raise the price of the GT3 somewhat and fit another 911 variant between the GTS and gt3
I've been speculating in the same direction. Don't think they will fit another variant between the GTS and gt3. But, the market can handle a more expensive and more CF rich 991.2gt3 with a 4.0l engine and MT option. Probably skip 991.2rs and go only 991gt2rs. Obviously with a very different price tag.
The big questions will be if they will make the 991.2gt3 even more street friendly. As of now the 991rs is more comfortable on the road and still faster on track than the 991.1gt3!
Will be interesting to see Porsches next GT move.
I've been speculating in the same direction. Don't think they will fit another variant between the GTS and gt3. But, the market can handle a more expensive and more CF rich 991.2gt3 with a 4.0l engine and MT option. Probably skip 991.2rs and go only 991gt2rs. Obviously with a very different price tag.
The big questions will be if they will make the 991.2gt3 even more street friendly. As of now the 991rs is more comfortable on the road and still faster on track than the 991.1gt3!
Will be interesting to see Porsches next GT move.
10-17-2016, 11:12 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Wishing I Was At The Track
Posts: 13,516
Received 1,727 Likes
on
914 Posts
In Porsche's eyes, the 911R isn't for everyone, they built it to beta test the manual transmission for the next GT3, and sell the cars to the 918 owners to test them.
918 owners won't bitch much if at all if there are any problems, they will just drive another car.
The markup on the car is insane simply because most people think of it wrong, they think it's a car they can flip. That's why they all want one to flip. And hence the inflated 2nd hand price.
Seriously, had Porsche didn't limit the production of the R, the price will not be above MSRP ever. It's just a beta car after all.
99% of the people who wants one wants it for the wrong reason, they just wanted one to flip, either immediately or down the road. If they are actually serious about what the car represent, they won't even buy the R and go straight ahead to the next GT3.
918 owners won't bitch much if at all if there are any problems, they will just drive another car.
The markup on the car is insane simply because most people think of it wrong, they think it's a car they can flip. That's why they all want one to flip. And hence the inflated 2nd hand price.
Seriously, had Porsche didn't limit the production of the R, the price will not be above MSRP ever. It's just a beta car after all.
99% of the people who wants one wants it for the wrong reason, they just wanted one to flip, either immediately or down the road. If they are actually serious about what the car represent, they won't even buy the R and go straight ahead to the next GT3.
Porsche is a conservative company but they're ever so slowly realizing that there's a market for cars that maximize driver engagement over HP and lap times. Not everyone wants a car that uses technology to hammer the road into submission instead of a scalpel to carve it up. PASM, PTV, PSM, PDCC, electric steering, RWS, centerlocks, turbos.....some of it works and some of it doesn't. But one need only look at BMW to see how easily chasing technology can go off track.
The irony is the concept of light, simple performance cars that delivered more than the sum of their parts is one Porsche have historically dominated, but for whatever reason seem bent on distancing themselves from more recently. Problem is every time they do a large contingent of their core customers make it clear that it's a mistake.
They tried going automatic only on the GT3 and were stunned by the backlash. They dipped a toe in the water with the GT4 and were again overwhelmed by the demand. The 911R was another experiment along this theme and I'm quite confident they're scratching their heads at the response.
Maybe if we're lucky in 10yrs time we'll get the Porsche-produced 2700lb, 500hp 911 GT with a full warranty many of us want. If not we can only hope our incomes rise enough to allow a re-imagined Singer or RUF 964.
10-18-2016, 12:09 AM
#52
Race Car
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
Posts: 4,445
Received 422 Likes
on
250 Posts
^go figure the R "value" if a re-imagined 964
10-18-2016, 12:23 AM
#53
Yes, it likely wouldn't trade above MSRP if they didn't limit production but I disagree that 99% want it for wrong reason. There are a lot of customers that have been begging for this type of car since the day Porsche announced the GT3 would be automatic-only, and in reality well before.
Porsche is a conservative company but they're ever so slowly realizing that there's a market for cars that maximize driver engagement over HP and lap times. Not everyone wants a car that uses technology to hammer the road into submission instead of a scalpel to carve it up. PASM, PTV, PSM, PDCC, electric steering, RWS, centerlocks, turbos.....some of it works and some of it doesn't. But one need only look at BMW to see how easily chasing technology can go off track.
The irony is the concept of light, simple performance cars that delivered more than the sum of their parts is one Porsche have historically dominated, but for whatever reason seem bent on distancing themselves from more recently. Problem is every time they do a large contingent of their core customers make it clear that it's a mistake.
They tried going automatic only on the GT3 and were stunned by the backlash. They dipped a toe in the water with the GT4 and were again overwhelmed by the demand. The 911R was another experiment along this theme and I'm quite confident they're scratching their heads at the response.
Maybe if we're lucky in 10yrs time we'll get the Porsche-produced 2700lb, 500hp 911 GT with a full warranty many of us want. If not we can only hope our incomes rise enough to allow a re-imagined Singer or RUF 964.
Porsche is a conservative company but they're ever so slowly realizing that there's a market for cars that maximize driver engagement over HP and lap times. Not everyone wants a car that uses technology to hammer the road into submission instead of a scalpel to carve it up. PASM, PTV, PSM, PDCC, electric steering, RWS, centerlocks, turbos.....some of it works and some of it doesn't. But one need only look at BMW to see how easily chasing technology can go off track.
The irony is the concept of light, simple performance cars that delivered more than the sum of their parts is one Porsche have historically dominated, but for whatever reason seem bent on distancing themselves from more recently. Problem is every time they do a large contingent of their core customers make it clear that it's a mistake.
They tried going automatic only on the GT3 and were stunned by the backlash. They dipped a toe in the water with the GT4 and were again overwhelmed by the demand. The 911R was another experiment along this theme and I'm quite confident they're scratching their heads at the response.
Maybe if we're lucky in 10yrs time we'll get the Porsche-produced 2700lb, 500hp 911 GT with a full warranty many of us want. If not we can only hope our incomes rise enough to allow a re-imagined Singer or RUF 964.
There is a lot of different reasons for the success of these later GT models. I think it's the sum of all theories that have created the hype or bubble we are seeing now.
Last N/A
Last MT
Last non hybrid
Financial market
Etc. etc
Porsche has taken full advantage of the situation with record sales. Understandable but IMO a bit sad. They still have the opportunity to move the RS model a lot closer to the cup/R!
It's takes more work to do it today then it did 20-30 years ago. But a true RS should in my mind feel like a barely street legal race car. That will sell way less RS but keep the heritage alive.
The R is a brilliant car but to name it R and play on the heritage of the original R is laughable IMO.
10-18-2016, 02:57 AM
#54
I agree with practically all of what Nizer has said - there is group of drivers waiting for a car that is engagement-focused, rather than numbers-focused. I do not care at all that there are many cars that will beat the R, or even the RS, around a track, but I do care about the driving experience that the car delivers.
Premiums? In Asia, we often start at TWICE the MSRP of the R's U.S. price, and in certain countries go to 3 or more times U.S. MSRP. And yet all the cars were spoken for just as quickly, these are much poorer countries than the U.S., and many of these cars will be driven. So yes, there is demand globally even at much higher prices than what our lucky friends in the U.S. have to pay.
Hopefully, with the GT3.2 manual, the market dynamics will change, and more drivers will be able to enjoy cars like the R at a lower price point.
Premiums? In Asia, we often start at TWICE the MSRP of the R's U.S. price, and in certain countries go to 3 or more times U.S. MSRP. And yet all the cars were spoken for just as quickly, these are much poorer countries than the U.S., and many of these cars will be driven. So yes, there is demand globally even at much higher prices than what our lucky friends in the U.S. have to pay.
Hopefully, with the GT3.2 manual, the market dynamics will change, and more drivers will be able to enjoy cars like the R at a lower price point.
10-18-2016, 03:20 AM
#56
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Maybe they've already made that concession, knowingly or not. The 991 GT2/RS will go a long way to answering that question.
10-18-2016, 03:37 AM
#57
They have a broader product line than Ferrari or McLaren, and the 918, RS, and GT3 have done a more than admirable job of going head to head with the competitor's respective cars. It is Ferrari and Mac that, for now, have no answer for the R.
Let us just hope that with so many variants, Porsche does not lose their edge.
Let us just hope that with so many variants, Porsche does not lose their edge.
10-18-2016, 09:22 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Wishing I Was At The Track
Posts: 13,516
Received 1,727 Likes
on
914 Posts
I agree with most of what you wrote but do you have a source regarding them being stunned by the reaction to PDK? I would be surprised if they were. Going PDK seems more like a calculated move that they knew would be controversial. But it allowed them to elevate PDK by associating it with the GT series cars. That would make it seem more like PDK was the standard for people who want an engaging driving experience rather than an alternative to manual.
10-18-2016, 04:31 PM
#60
Three Wheelin'
In Porsche's eyes, the 911R isn't for everyone, they built it to beta test the manual transmission for the next GT3, and sell the cars to the 918 owners to test them.
918 owners won't bitch much if at all if there are any problems, they will just drive another car.
The markup on the car is insane simply because most people think of it wrong, they think it's a car they can flip. That's why they all want one to flip. And hence the inflated 2nd hand price.
Seriously, had Porsche didn't limit the production of the R, the price will not be above MSRP ever. It's just a beta car after all.
99% of the people who wants one wants it for the wrong reason, they just wanted one to flip, either immediately or down the road. If they are actually serious about what the car represent, they won't even buy the R and go straight ahead to the next GT3.
918 owners won't bitch much if at all if there are any problems, they will just drive another car.
The markup on the car is insane simply because most people think of it wrong, they think it's a car they can flip. That's why they all want one to flip. And hence the inflated 2nd hand price.
Seriously, had Porsche didn't limit the production of the R, the price will not be above MSRP ever. It's just a beta car after all.
99% of the people who wants one wants it for the wrong reason, they just wanted one to flip, either immediately or down the road. If they are actually serious about what the car represent, they won't even buy the R and go straight ahead to the next GT3.