Why did they limit the production of the 911 R?
10-12-2016, 08:22 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Grammar and punctuations buddy. Did you not learn properly how to write sentences in school? Or you are not there yet?
10-12-2016, 08:41 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
How likely is it that, if the 960 is being designed right now, it ends up sharing the V10 Lamborghini/Audi platform? Would the rumored flat 8 fit on that platform?
The Audi and Porsche would likely have some customer overlap, not sure the same can be said about the Lamborghini.
What would you expect for the 960's base MSRP? Porsche has a lot of room to maneuver as far as pricing goes for their own cars.
You would think in this case the Porsche would be much more profitable than the Audi and would therefore take precedent in the event only one of the two cars is financially viable.
Volkswagen AG needs to be very careful when it comes to platform sharing, particularly on their higher end cars. So far they have been able to maintain brand distinction for the most part but I think platform sharing makes it very easy to lose that if done incorrectly enough times. Though, given Porsche's close relationship with Audi and Volkswagen in the past, perhaps it does not matter as long as they leave the 911 alone.
The Audi and Porsche would likely have some customer overlap, not sure the same can be said about the Lamborghini.
What would you expect for the 960's base MSRP? Porsche has a lot of room to maneuver as far as pricing goes for their own cars.
You would think in this case the Porsche would be much more profitable than the Audi and would therefore take precedent in the event only one of the two cars is financially viable.
Volkswagen AG needs to be very careful when it comes to platform sharing, particularly on their higher end cars. So far they have been able to maintain brand distinction for the most part but I think platform sharing makes it very easy to lose that if done incorrectly enough times. Though, given Porsche's close relationship with Audi and Volkswagen in the past, perhaps it does not matter as long as they leave the 911 alone.
Porsche clan of course are in the Porsche brand camp, while the Piechs are in the Audi camp. With such a powerful ally behind it's back, Audi is almost impossible to be asked to give way willingly.
It was better when Dr. Piech was forced out, but now with Winterkorn gone he is gradually gaining back power to protect his baby again.
IF a 960 is being designed right now, it will be extremely unlikely that Porsche will use the Lamborghini/Audi V10. For lower entry level cars yes, a V6 or a V8 here and there from Audi is fine, but for top end performance Porsche would want their own engine design. So the platform will support both the V10 and the unnamed engine Porsche wants to use. Perhaps the rumoured flat 8.
But if I were a betting man, I might even put money on a 918-lite.
So for the next series, Audi might have to do with only a V8TT, no more V10 R8s, the V10s will be for Lamborghini only. Porsche will also have a V8TT, but with hybrid support. Not the full blown trick system in the 918, but one that's only driving the rear wheels. It will fits their Porsche Intelligent Performance slogan, and matches with their toppling racing car 919 Hybrid, and the top line halo car 918 Hybrid. The up coming Panamera Turbo S will already be a PHEV. So for 960 it might be 2 models, a regular 960 with just the V8TT, and a S model with the hybrid system.
With the diesel gate scandal, VAG needs to project itself as green again, and responsible, so a performance hybrid is likely, all the performance one wants in the open road yet clean when inside the city.
10-12-2016, 11:34 PM
#34
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10-12-2016, 11:50 PM
#35
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10-13-2016, 11:19 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
Very interesting. The politics behind the scenes at VW, and Porsche when they were independent, have always seemed more public than other car companies, even ones with similar family involvement.
Was there any relation to Piech's departure and the emissions scandal? Or was it completely coincidental that he gave in and resigned just a few months before the EPA released a statement regarding the violation?
Would be interesting to know the ownership structure of Porsche SE. Does Ferdinand Piech have a lot of supporters simply due to decades of success? Or does his influence also have to do with how Porsche SE is structured?
Now that you mention it, a hybrid system like the second generation NSX would make sense for the reasons you stated. A flat 8 would make it stand out against its V engine competitors. Though, with a rumored 911 hybrid the main concern may be differentiating it from Porsche's other offerings.
I just wonder if there is enough room in that segment for all of Volkswagen AG's cars, assuming Audi continues to develop the R8. It does not seem sensible to have an Audi competing with a Porsche in that market sector. Perhaps if they share a platform they can justify it, but then it comes down to how will such a decision affect Porsche's brand image.
According to this article they have quite a bit on their hands:
http://www.autonews.com/article/2016...g-in-to-fix-vw
Was there any relation to Piech's departure and the emissions scandal? Or was it completely coincidental that he gave in and resigned just a few months before the EPA released a statement regarding the violation?
Would be interesting to know the ownership structure of Porsche SE. Does Ferdinand Piech have a lot of supporters simply due to decades of success? Or does his influence also have to do with how Porsche SE is structured?
Now that you mention it, a hybrid system like the second generation NSX would make sense for the reasons you stated. A flat 8 would make it stand out against its V engine competitors. Though, with a rumored 911 hybrid the main concern may be differentiating it from Porsche's other offerings.
I just wonder if there is enough room in that segment for all of Volkswagen AG's cars, assuming Audi continues to develop the R8. It does not seem sensible to have an Audi competing with a Porsche in that market sector. Perhaps if they share a platform they can justify it, but then it comes down to how will such a decision affect Porsche's brand image.
According to this article they have quite a bit on their hands:
http://www.autonews.com/article/2016...g-in-to-fix-vw
Of course Piech knew a lot about the diesel gate, when Winterkorn also knew long beforehand.
The Porsche clan has always been very passive while Piech is more outspoken and active and aggressive, and with that he is a very seasoned in office politics. He does not get outmaneuvered at all.
The infighting is very well publicized, many articles has been written. Initially it was 50-50 for share structures between the Porsche clan and the Piechs, but when Piech stole one of the wives from his Porsche cousin, the Piech side gained a tiny bit of an edge in share count from the initial divorce and subsequent marriage.
10-15-2016, 08:03 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
They very well could have if not for Piech's ego. His ego to build his baby Audi up to be superior to Porsche is what sink the company.
Audi cars are all over the map, almost overlapping everything VAG offers, jeopardizing sales of the whole group. Pushing VW the brand up market was another mistake.
Had Porsche been successful in taking over the VAG group, VAG might have the chance to be the biggest car company, Porsche management know what they are doing when they build the Porsche brand up from almost bankruptcy in the 80s. Oh well.
Audi cars are all over the map, almost overlapping everything VAG offers, jeopardizing sales of the whole group. Pushing VW the brand up market was another mistake.
Had Porsche been successful in taking over the VAG group, VAG might have the chance to be the biggest car company, Porsche management know what they are doing when they build the Porsche brand up from almost bankruptcy in the 80s. Oh well.
10-15-2016, 09:09 PM
#42
I was bummed to see the limited production of the 911 R as I had many clients wanting one....including myself! The mark ups on these 911 R's is nuts but it will probably go down as one of the most desirable 911's of all time and will be a 2 million dollar car down the road....especially once everything we have has batteries and hybrid etc...There is only 1 911 R left in the country that can still be built as far as I can see....that will be $$$$$ for the owner for sure.... 
10-16-2016, 12:54 AM
#43
Rennlist Member
In Porsche's eyes, the 911R isn't for everyone, they built it to beta test the manual transmission for the next GT3, and sell the cars to the 918 owners to test them.
918 owners won't bitch much if at all if there are any problems, they will just drive another car.
The markup on the car is insane simply because most people think of it wrong, they think it's a car they can flip. That's why they all want one to flip. And hence the inflated 2nd hand price.
Seriously, had Porsche didn't limit the production of the R, the price will not be above MSRP ever. It's just a beta car after all.
99% of the people who wants one wants it for the wrong reason, they just wanted one to flip, either immediately or down the road. If they are actually serious about what the car represent, they won't even buy the R and go straight ahead to the next GT3.
918 owners won't bitch much if at all if there are any problems, they will just drive another car.
The markup on the car is insane simply because most people think of it wrong, they think it's a car they can flip. That's why they all want one to flip. And hence the inflated 2nd hand price.
Seriously, had Porsche didn't limit the production of the R, the price will not be above MSRP ever. It's just a beta car after all.
99% of the people who wants one wants it for the wrong reason, they just wanted one to flip, either immediately or down the road. If they are actually serious about what the car represent, they won't even buy the R and go straight ahead to the next GT3.
Last edited by Whoopsy; 10-16-2016 at 01:24 AM.
10-16-2016, 09:58 AM
#45
Nordschleife Master
Assuming the next 911R is another LE. I don't believe it translates to a 30% markup in future 911 models.
