'17 RSR testing video
07-05-2016, 06:27 PM
#31
Drifting
Guest89: I am not clear on all this. Seriously. Trying to learn. Why didn't PAG use the 9a1? Why were they using the old Metzger in the RSR and R? If Ford got waivers for the FGT in a car that is only allowed to race without being homologated based on waivers WHY didn't PAG develope a more advanced race platform for the GT3 and get waivers? They saw it coming for over a year now. The current 991 is nearly mid engined as it is, isn't it? That still makes it very competitive I would think.
Also, What is the weight difference in FGT, 488, Aston, Vette and Porsche? Can't be that much difference that a BOP can level out as far as weight and power differences. An NA motor can't compete against a turbo motor of near displacement. I get it. Seems like DOT, EPA and CAFE standards are driving whats going to be raced in the future and the NA is to be a relic I'm afraid.
I never understood why more money isn't spent on GT, GTE racing than LMP. Maybe I am missing something but I have way more interest in cars I can buy then those I can't in competition. The LMPs are cool but they have no relevance to me. I can't buy an LMP. I know they are test beds and show case what a manufacturer can do though.
I was really disappointed in PAG's failure to put any real effort into GT and GTE this year. Its almost like they conceded to Ford and Ferrari without firing a shot. It's like they sent up yesterdays technology against cutting edge technology knowing they would not win.
I watched part of the 6 Hours at the Glen. BMW M6 ran a respectable 3rd in GTE Pro and was challenging the FGT for the lead. It seem to me that PAG could have have put in enough mods and effort to the 991 RSR with a 9a1 to have run up front. Is the RSR not able of being made competitive with the M6, Audi or any of the rest? Really? I don't believe that for one minute. The GT3RS is in the top 5 fastest lap times at Laguna Seca as a road car.
The FGT is a race car that was developed to win at LeMans and in GTE. It is a street car 2nd and is to be made in very small numbers just enough to get homologated. To me its a "ringer" that should be in DP at this point. Not one single car ordered or produced for the public even today.
The GT3, 488, Aston, Audi and Corvette are truly production vehicles built to target a price budget and production figures that makes the car attainable to the guy who buys on Monday after watching racing on Sunday. FGT not so much. It was a special thrown into a class of street cars that were modified for racing as opposed to cars built specifically for racing.
Again, seems more fair to put the FGT in DP than GTE unless there was some serous BOP handed down to Ford. Am I wrong here????
Seems to me the 9a1 would be the better motor to run in GT, GTE. Makes more power than the Metzger and is lighter and revs higher.
I am trying to understand this sport and it is still a little confusing so pardon me if I sound dense.
Also, What is the weight difference in FGT, 488, Aston, Vette and Porsche? Can't be that much difference that a BOP can level out as far as weight and power differences. An NA motor can't compete against a turbo motor of near displacement. I get it. Seems like DOT, EPA and CAFE standards are driving whats going to be raced in the future and the NA is to be a relic I'm afraid.
I never understood why more money isn't spent on GT, GTE racing than LMP. Maybe I am missing something but I have way more interest in cars I can buy then those I can't in competition. The LMPs are cool but they have no relevance to me. I can't buy an LMP. I know they are test beds and show case what a manufacturer can do though.
I was really disappointed in PAG's failure to put any real effort into GT and GTE this year. Its almost like they conceded to Ford and Ferrari without firing a shot. It's like they sent up yesterdays technology against cutting edge technology knowing they would not win.
I watched part of the 6 Hours at the Glen. BMW M6 ran a respectable 3rd in GTE Pro and was challenging the FGT for the lead. It seem to me that PAG could have have put in enough mods and effort to the 991 RSR with a 9a1 to have run up front. Is the RSR not able of being made competitive with the M6, Audi or any of the rest? Really? I don't believe that for one minute. The GT3RS is in the top 5 fastest lap times at Laguna Seca as a road car.
The FGT is a race car that was developed to win at LeMans and in GTE. It is a street car 2nd and is to be made in very small numbers just enough to get homologated. To me its a "ringer" that should be in DP at this point. Not one single car ordered or produced for the public even today.
The GT3, 488, Aston, Audi and Corvette are truly production vehicles built to target a price budget and production figures that makes the car attainable to the guy who buys on Monday after watching racing on Sunday. FGT not so much. It was a special thrown into a class of street cars that were modified for racing as opposed to cars built specifically for racing.
Again, seems more fair to put the FGT in DP than GTE unless there was some serous BOP handed down to Ford. Am I wrong here????
Seems to me the 9a1 would be the better motor to run in GT, GTE. Makes more power than the Metzger and is lighter and revs higher.
I am trying to understand this sport and it is still a little confusing so pardon me if I sound dense.
Meanwhile, they chose to use the 9A1 engine in the customer-oriented GT3 R which races in IMSA's GTD, as well as Pirelli World Challenge (and other series).
The ultimate street car iterations of both engines - 997 GT3 RS 4.0 and 991 GT3 RS - displaced 4.0 liters and were rated at 500 bhp; I have no idea - not even a good guess - as to what the practical differences between the two powerplants are in a post-BOP racing context. I'm not sure if customer GT3 R teams are rebuilding engines or installing new ones, and we're already well beyond 40 hours of run time this season in IMSA (much more if you count practice sessions, quali, etc.). Like for like, the 9A1 is lighter, simpler (fewer parts), physically smaller (irrespective of relative displacement), and more fuel efficient (DFI vs. non-DFI).
The IMSA displacement limits are 4.0L for turbo and 5.5L for NA. Ford is 3.5L turbo, Ferrari is 3.9L turbo, Porsche is 4.0L NA, Corvette is 5.5L NA (so different from the road car engine at 6.2L). BMW runs a 4.4L turbo in GTLM, and Viper ran an 8.4L V10 when they competed in GTLM; both cars received waivers to do so. IMO BMW is historically the most egregious in terms of waiver reliance; they raced an E46 M3 with a bespoke V8 back in the day, and the previous years' Z4 M Coupe bore zero resemblance to any street car they sold (they used a V8 in that race car too). The current M6 GTLM is not even legal at Le Mans, so they couldn't race there.
Porsche is the only manufacturer racing in both Prototype and Production-based classes in WEC; I think their resource allocation is logical, as throwing money and personnel at LMP1 gives them a higher likelihood of winning, which is invaluable from a global marketing standpoint. Winning in a lesser class is still worthwhile from a marketing POV, as Ford have illustrated, but why throw precious resources at a GTE/GTLM effort if you can deploy those resources more effectively elsewhere and have confidence you'll be competitive through skillful BOP lobbying? Or why waste any resources there if you're confident that someone else (Ford) has the package (and tacit support of the sanctioning body) to walk away with things in a given year? Especially when Porsche could "save face" by potentially winning overall at Le Mans?
In the latest Double Stint Podcast, John Dagys fields a question about Porsche and Corvette using forced induction next year; Doug Fehan told him that Corvette's package is "fully confirmed" for 2017 (i.e., non-turbo), and Dagys says "it looks like the Porsche car for next year is actually going to remain naturally aspirated."
Key portion highlighted. Ford has delivered ZERO road legal GTs to customers, yet they've been racing the car for nearly 6 months. As long as a manufacturer builds and delivers enough units to satisfy the homologation criteria before the car goes racing there should be no issue.
07-05-2016, 06:45 PM
#32
Nordschleife Master
Still a little confusing but to me bottom line it appears Porsche threw in the towel on GT/GTE LLM/pro without much of a try.
At Thermal the GT3RS was within a 10th of a second of the 675LT with pro driver wheeling both cars.
The 675LT is likely to be on par with the new FGT. To me, maybe I just don't get it, I don't understand why Porsche can't field a more competitive team in GT/GTELM/pro especially with BOP.
At Thermal the GT3RS was within a 10th of a second of the 675LT with pro driver wheeling both cars.
The 675LT is likely to be on par with the new FGT. To me, maybe I just don't get it, I don't understand why Porsche can't field a more competitive team in GT/GTELM/pro especially with BOP.
07-05-2016, 07:51 PM
#33
Platinum Dealership
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Still a little confusing but to me bottom line it appears Porsche threw in the towel on GT/GTE LLM/pro without much of a try. At Thermal the GT3RS was within a 10th of a second of the 675LT with pro driver wheeling both cars. The 675LT is likely to be on par with the new FGT. To me, maybe I just don't get it, I don't understand why Porsche can't field a more competitive team in GT/GTELM/pro especially with BOP.
At a longer more sinewy European course like LaSarthe or Spa the GT3RS would get obliterated (by 3-5 seconds) versus the Viper ACR and 675LT. Or at a faster top speed track like COTA.
The GT3RS has amazing brakes, amazing tires and a fantastic transmission.
The acr makes 3-7 times the downforce of the RS (speed dependent) and the 675LT is 100+lbs lighter with just as good of brakes and 170HP more. At most tracks it will be no contest.
I own all three cars so it's not like I'm playing favorites, just trying to give factual info. The 918 and P1 can both be beaten by the ACR on the right tracks. And on some tracks in some configurations the 675 could beat the 918 (700lbs lighter)and ACR (way less drag, similar power)
It's all over the board- these cars are as good as they can be. Just depends on aero windows, braking required, avg speed and avg corner radius. P1 works really well above 95. Acr works best at 90-120 (most brutal downforce and contact patch, above that drag kick her in the groin). 918 works best at 40-80 (awd) and 120-150 (tons of torque, slippery). 675 works best 80-150 (above traction slip issues but below where you need 700+hp to keep going).
I cannot imagine the RS defeating any of these cars on any of these tracks with a super skilled driver. Because the RS has active rear steering and huge contact patches and most people have driven them extensively (or previous gens) we get to that 90-95% of the car quickly. It's inviting. But- does have a ceiling on it's capabilities.
I think:
Sebring the P1 would be fastest, then 918 but barely over ACR.
Thermal- 918 (depending on configuration)
Spa- P1, ACR, 918, 675
Laguna Seca ACR, 918, P1, 675
LA Sarthe- P1, 918, 675, ACR
Silverstone- P1, ACR, 918, 675
COTA- P1, ACR, 918, 675
Road Atlanta- 918, P1, ACR, 675
07-05-2016, 09:09 PM
#35
Burning Brakes
Waxer- that Thermal track plays very well to the GT3RS's rear weight bias (massive braking in a straight line and requisite 2nd gear corner exits and massive traction) which is the only reason why it is close.
At a longer more sinewy European course like LaSarthe or Spa the GT3RS would get obliterated (by 3-5 seconds) versus the Viper ACR and 675LT. Or at a faster top speed track like COTA.
The GT3RS has amazing brakes, amazing tires and a fantastic transmission.
The acr makes 3-7 times the downforce of the RS (speed dependent) and the 675LT is 100+lbs lighter with just as good of brakes and 170HP more. At most tracks it will be no contest.
I own all three cars so it's not like I'm playing favorites, just trying to give factual info. The 918 and P1 can both be beaten by the ACR on the right tracks. And on some tracks in some configurations the 675 could beat the 918 (700lbs lighter)and ACR (way less drag, similar power)
It's all over the board- these cars are as good as they can be. Just depends on aero windows, braking required, avg speed and avg corner radius. P1 works really well above 95. Acr works best at 90-120 (most brutal downforce and contact patch, above that drag kick her in the groin). 918 works best at 40-80 (awd) and 120-150 (tons of torque, slippery). 675 works best 80-150 (above traction slip issues but below where you need 700+hp to keep going).
I cannot imagine the RS defeating any of these cars on any of these tracks with a super skilled driver. Because the RS has active rear steering and huge contact patches and most people have driven them extensively (or previous gens) we get to that 90-95% of the car quickly. It's inviting. But- does have a ceiling on it's capabilities.
I think:
Sebring the P1 would be fastest, then 918 but barely over ACR.
Thermal- 918 (depending on configuration)
Spa- P1, ACR, 918, 675
Laguna Seca ACR, 918, P1, 675
LA Sarthe- P1, 918, 675, ACR
Silverstone- P1, ACR, 918, 675
COTA- P1, ACR, 918, 675
Road Atlanta- 918, P1, ACR, 675
At a longer more sinewy European course like LaSarthe or Spa the GT3RS would get obliterated (by 3-5 seconds) versus the Viper ACR and 675LT. Or at a faster top speed track like COTA.
The GT3RS has amazing brakes, amazing tires and a fantastic transmission.
The acr makes 3-7 times the downforce of the RS (speed dependent) and the 675LT is 100+lbs lighter with just as good of brakes and 170HP more. At most tracks it will be no contest.
I own all three cars so it's not like I'm playing favorites, just trying to give factual info. The 918 and P1 can both be beaten by the ACR on the right tracks. And on some tracks in some configurations the 675 could beat the 918 (700lbs lighter)and ACR (way less drag, similar power)
It's all over the board- these cars are as good as they can be. Just depends on aero windows, braking required, avg speed and avg corner radius. P1 works really well above 95. Acr works best at 90-120 (most brutal downforce and contact patch, above that drag kick her in the groin). 918 works best at 40-80 (awd) and 120-150 (tons of torque, slippery). 675 works best 80-150 (above traction slip issues but below where you need 700+hp to keep going).
I cannot imagine the RS defeating any of these cars on any of these tracks with a super skilled driver. Because the RS has active rear steering and huge contact patches and most people have driven them extensively (or previous gens) we get to that 90-95% of the car quickly. It's inviting. But- does have a ceiling on it's capabilities.
I think:
Sebring the P1 would be fastest, then 918 but barely over ACR.
Thermal- 918 (depending on configuration)
Spa- P1, ACR, 918, 675
Laguna Seca ACR, 918, P1, 675
LA Sarthe- P1, 918, 675, ACR
Silverstone- P1, ACR, 918, 675
COTA- P1, ACR, 918, 675
Road Atlanta- 918, P1, ACR, 675
07-05-2016, 09:20 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Wishing I Was At The Track
Posts: 13,516
Received 1,727 Likes
on
914 Posts
I think:
Sebring the P1 would be fastest, then 918 but barely over ACR.
Thermal- 918 (depending on configuration)
Spa- P1, ACR, 918, 675
Laguna Seca ACR, 918, P1, 675
LA Sarthe- P1, 918, 675, ACR
Silverstone- P1, ACR, 918, 675
COTA- P1, ACR, 918, 675
Road Atlanta- 918, P1, ACR, 675
07-05-2016, 11:12 PM
#37
Key portion highlighted. Ford has delivered ZERO road legal GTs to customers, yet they've been racing the car for nearly 6 months. As long as a manufacturer builds and delivers enough units to satisfy the homologation criteria before the car goes racing there should be no issue.
07-05-2016, 11:35 PM
#38
Drifting
07-05-2016, 11:42 PM
#39
Nordschleife Master
CJ: thanks. I put The RS in the super car category. The others are hyper car category that cost 2 x to 4 x as much. The fact the RS is even in the ring with those cars is amazing. I would clearly expect longer tracks to favor the higher powered cars. On shorter twister tracks like Lime Rock, Summit Point, NJMP, Thermal etc. I would expect the RS to be more competitive.
Nizer's point is dead on though.
07-06-2016, 12:24 PM
#40
So.... the manufacturers disagree with your position.
Looking at the whole season it looked like Ferrari was the favored "golden child". BOP 'should' balance out any inherent advantages/disadvantages of a given car, so I would imagine the various MFGs believed in the BOP and were gracious to allow the Ford to race on the anniversary of their historic win at LeMans 50 years ago.
IMO, if the results of the Ford make a mid-engine twin turbo 911, that would just make the consumer win from all of this. Except those stubborn rear-engine loyalists
IMO, if the results of the Ford make a mid-engine twin turbo 911, that would just make the consumer win from all of this. Except those stubborn rear-engine loyalists
07-06-2016, 01:04 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
So.... the manufacturers disagree with your position.
Looking at the whole season it looked like Ferrari was the favored "golden child". BOP 'should' balance out any inherent advantages/disadvantages of a given car, so I would imagine the various MFGs believed in the BOP and were gracious to allow the Ford to race on the anniversary of their historic win at LeMans 50 years ago.
IMO, if the results of the Ford make a mid-engine twin turbo 911, that would just make the consumer win from all of this. Except those stubborn rear-engine loyalists
Looking at the whole season it looked like Ferrari was the favored "golden child". BOP 'should' balance out any inherent advantages/disadvantages of a given car, so I would imagine the various MFGs believed in the BOP and were gracious to allow the Ford to race on the anniversary of their historic win at LeMans 50 years ago.
IMO, if the results of the Ford make a mid-engine twin turbo 911, that would just make the consumer win from all of this. Except those stubborn rear-engine loyalists
Did the Ford have an advantage at LeMans? Who knows and who cares. They raced well and they achieved the goal they set out to do when they started the program. They did beat Porsche, Corvette and most importantly Ferrari on a world wide stage. They did it with the BOP put in place for the event. This is all how racing works and nothing that will be said in this thread will ever change it. Yes there are a lot of theories on how to make it better but as long as I have been racing I have heard complaints on BOP or what ever the series I was racing in called it. No one series gets it right every year and that is the reason it changes.
If you guys don't think Porsche plays the political game just ask anybody who has driven a Porsche in the 24 Hours of Daytona or similar race. There are the guys who walk around with a briefcase chained to their arms with a top secret laptop inside. With one simple download to your car you can be one of the fastest Porsches or one of the slowest. The game they want you to play is determined by the download they put in your car.
07-06-2016, 01:10 PM
#42
Platinum Dealership
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Why would they all welcome a car with an unfair edge knowing politics would favor them? CJ: thanks. I put The RS in the super car category. The others are hyper car category that cost 2 x to 4 x as much. The fact the RS is even in the ring with those cars is amazing. I would clearly expect longer tracks to favor the higher powered cars. On shorter twister tracks like Lime Rock, Summit Point, NJMP, Thermal etc. I would expect the RS to be more competitive. Nizer's point is dead on though.
The more eyeballs on racing the better for everyone.
07-06-2016, 01:25 PM
#43
Nordschleife Master
07-06-2016, 02:08 PM
#44
Drifting
So.... the manufacturers disagree with your position.
Looking at the whole season it looked like Ferrari was the favored "golden child". BOP 'should' balance out any inherent advantages/disadvantages of a given car, so I would imagine the various MFGs believed in the BOP and were gracious to allow the Ford to race on the anniversary of their historic win at LeMans 50 years ago.
IMO, if the results of the Ford make a mid-engine twin turbo 911, that would just make the consumer win from all of this. Except those stubborn rear-engine loyalists
Looking at the whole season it looked like Ferrari was the favored "golden child". BOP 'should' balance out any inherent advantages/disadvantages of a given car, so I would imagine the various MFGs believed in the BOP and were gracious to allow the Ford to race on the anniversary of their historic win at LeMans 50 years ago.
IMO, if the results of the Ford make a mid-engine twin turbo 911, that would just make the consumer win from all of this. Except those stubborn rear-engine loyalists
Besides, with BOP anyone can win at any race for any non-reason.
In fact... http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/im...ahead-of-ctmp/
IMSA has made Balance of Performance adjustments to the GT Le Mans and GT Daytona classes ahead of this weekend’s Mobil 1 Sportscar Grand Prix at Canadian Tire Motorsport Park.
In an unprecedented move, the sanctioning body has issued BoP changes past its seven-day pre-event deadline given to teams, in the wake of “extraordinary circumstances” based on last weekend’s Sahlen’s Six Hours of The Glen.
The biggest change has come with the Ford GTs, which have been given a 15kg weight increase and boost reduction, following a dominant 1-2 finish at The Glen.
Both the Porsche 911 RSR and Corvette C7.R, meanwhile, have been handed 10kg weight breaks, with the Corvette also getting a 0.4mm larger air restrictor and revised declared minimum lambda.
Fuel capacities in GTLM have also been adjusted, with the Corvette getting two additional liters, a one-liter increase for the Ferrari 488 GTE and two-liter reduction for the Ford.
In GTD, both the Audi R8 LMS and Ferrari 488 GT3 have been given 15kg weight increases, with the Porsche 911 GT3 R getting 10kg of additional weight.
Due to an “atypical shortage of days” between Watkins Glen and CTMP, IMSA had exercised Article 2.2.2 in the WeatherTech SportsCar Championship Sporting Regulations, which has allowed them to make these BoP adjustments due to unforeseen or otherwise extraordinary circumstances.
In an unprecedented move, the sanctioning body has issued BoP changes past its seven-day pre-event deadline given to teams, in the wake of “extraordinary circumstances” based on last weekend’s Sahlen’s Six Hours of The Glen.
The biggest change has come with the Ford GTs, which have been given a 15kg weight increase and boost reduction, following a dominant 1-2 finish at The Glen.
Both the Porsche 911 RSR and Corvette C7.R, meanwhile, have been handed 10kg weight breaks, with the Corvette also getting a 0.4mm larger air restrictor and revised declared minimum lambda.
Fuel capacities in GTLM have also been adjusted, with the Corvette getting two additional liters, a one-liter increase for the Ferrari 488 GTE and two-liter reduction for the Ford.
In GTD, both the Audi R8 LMS and Ferrari 488 GT3 have been given 15kg weight increases, with the Porsche 911 GT3 R getting 10kg of additional weight.
Due to an “atypical shortage of days” between Watkins Glen and CTMP, IMSA had exercised Article 2.2.2 in the WeatherTech SportsCar Championship Sporting Regulations, which has allowed them to make these BoP adjustments due to unforeseen or otherwise extraordinary circumstances.
07-06-2016, 02:43 PM
#45
Allowing the Ford GT to race is a smart move by all the manufacturers to allow it in. They know the car will attract a lot of attention and the marketing Ford will put into racing this year and the life of the program is well worth it. Ford designed a car that will be an iconic street car and race car for years to come. This car will bring more people to know about sports car racing and become fans. This is a genius move for everyone who loves sports cars.
Did the Ford have an advantage at LeMans? Who knows and who cares. They raced well and they achieved the goal they set out to do when they started the program. They did beat Porsche, Corvette and most importantly Ferrari on a world wide stage. They did it with the BOP put in place for the event. This is all how racing works and nothing that will be said in this thread will ever change it. Yes there are a lot of theories on how to make it better but as long as I have been racing I have heard complaints on BOP or what ever the series I was racing in called it. No one series gets it right every year and that is the reason it changes.
If you guys don't think Porsche plays the political game just ask anybody who has driven a Porsche in the 24 Hours of Daytona or similar race. There are the guys who walk around with a briefcase chained to their arms with a top secret laptop inside. With one simple download to your car you can be one of the fastest Porsches or one of the slowest. The game they want you to play is determined by the download they put in your car.
Did the Ford have an advantage at LeMans? Who knows and who cares. They raced well and they achieved the goal they set out to do when they started the program. They did beat Porsche, Corvette and most importantly Ferrari on a world wide stage. They did it with the BOP put in place for the event. This is all how racing works and nothing that will be said in this thread will ever change it. Yes there are a lot of theories on how to make it better but as long as I have been racing I have heard complaints on BOP or what ever the series I was racing in called it. No one series gets it right every year and that is the reason it changes.
If you guys don't think Porsche plays the political game just ask anybody who has driven a Porsche in the 24 Hours of Daytona or similar race. There are the guys who walk around with a briefcase chained to their arms with a top secret laptop inside. With one simple download to your car you can be one of the fastest Porsches or one of the slowest. The game they want you to play is determined by the download they put in your car.
That's racing...
