'17 RSR testing video
06-30-2016, 08:48 AM
#17
Banned
06-30-2016, 09:09 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
hmm......again, if they go turbo, fine. I'm just saying that turbo, or mid-engine isn't the cure-all in racing, especially in BOP environment. The only reason they were "vastly" better is because of the utter and complete failure of BOP by the ACO (and politics). It is an embarrassment when you get played to the tune of 6 seconds a lap.....
BOP is what allows for 12 manufacturers racing in Blaincpain/SRO, with 60+ GT car fields for many races. Somehow front engine turbo Bentley's win, NA mid engine Audi's win, and even, GASP, rear engine NA Porsche's win in PWC (which is now partly owed by SRO), which uses the identical BOP process.
You want "anything goes" racing? Enjoy it while it lasts. It always dies quickly.
I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagree.
BOP is what allows for 12 manufacturers racing in Blaincpain/SRO, with 60+ GT car fields for many races. Somehow front engine turbo Bentley's win, NA mid engine Audi's win, and even, GASP, rear engine NA Porsche's win in PWC (which is now partly owed by SRO), which uses the identical BOP process.
You want "anything goes" racing? Enjoy it while it lasts. It always dies quickly.
I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagree.
Porsche’s 2017 GTE contender could feature a turbocharged engine after all, with the new-generation 911 RSR having been spotted testing at Monza, ahead of its race debut early next year.
Two of the new rear-mid engined Porsches, along with a 2016-spec Porsche 911 GT3 R, are at the Italian circuit this week, in what’s believed to be one of the first tests with the GTE car outside of its Weissach test track.
While initial reports pointed towards the car retaining a version of its normally aspirated flat-six powerplant, photos and multiple eyewitness reports from Monza indicate the German manufacturer could have opted with a twin-turbo instead.
Side intakes are visible from the above photo, in the same position as the Porsche 911 Turbo S. The road-going model features a 3.8-liter twin-turbo flat-six.
Porsche unveiled preliminary details of its 2017 GTE car last month, although omitting any side profile photos, or technical details.
It’s understood the car also features a revised engine and gearbox placement, via waivers from the FIA and ACO, in order to be on a more equal playing field to the new mid-engined cars from Ford and Ferrari.
Aside from the new intakes, the photo shows a redesigned rear wing, as well as reshaped rear-end, likely due to the revised engine placement.
Both CORE autosport and Manthey Racing will continue operating the factory programs next year, in the IMSA WeatherTech SportsCar Championship and a planned full-season return to the FIA World Endurance Championship, respectively.
Two of the new rear-mid engined Porsches, along with a 2016-spec Porsche 911 GT3 R, are at the Italian circuit this week, in what’s believed to be one of the first tests with the GTE car outside of its Weissach test track.
While initial reports pointed towards the car retaining a version of its normally aspirated flat-six powerplant, photos and multiple eyewitness reports from Monza indicate the German manufacturer could have opted with a twin-turbo instead.
Side intakes are visible from the above photo, in the same position as the Porsche 911 Turbo S. The road-going model features a 3.8-liter twin-turbo flat-six.
Porsche unveiled preliminary details of its 2017 GTE car last month, although omitting any side profile photos, or technical details.
It’s understood the car also features a revised engine and gearbox placement, via waivers from the FIA and ACO, in order to be on a more equal playing field to the new mid-engined cars from Ford and Ferrari.
Aside from the new intakes, the photo shows a redesigned rear wing, as well as reshaped rear-end, likely due to the revised engine placement.
Both CORE autosport and Manthey Racing will continue operating the factory programs next year, in the IMSA WeatherTech SportsCar Championship and a planned full-season return to the FIA World Endurance Championship, respectively.
06-30-2016, 11:01 AM
#19
hmm......again, if they go turbo, fine. I'm just saying that turbo, or mid-engine isn't the cure-all in racing, especially in BOP environment. The only reason they were "vastly" better is because of the utter and complete failure of BOP by the ACO (and politics). It is an embarrassment when you get played to the tune of 6 seconds a lap.....
BOP is what allows for 12 manufacturers racing in Blaincpain/SRO, with 60+ GT car fields for many races. Somehow front engine turbo Bentley's win, NA mid engine Audi's win, and even, GASP, rear engine NA Porsche's win in PWC (which is now partly owed by SRO), which uses the identical BOP process.
You want "anything goes" racing? Enjoy it while it lasts. It always dies quickly.
I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagree.
BOP is what allows for 12 manufacturers racing in Blaincpain/SRO, with 60+ GT car fields for many races. Somehow front engine turbo Bentley's win, NA mid engine Audi's win, and even, GASP, rear engine NA Porsche's win in PWC (which is now partly owed by SRO), which uses the identical BOP process.
You want "anything goes" racing? Enjoy it while it lasts. It always dies quickly.
I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagree.
IIRC, between the official test and qualifying, the laptimes were:
Ford Pro - 4.85 faster
Ferrari Pro - 4.34 faster
Aston Pro - 0.93 faster
Porsche Pro - 0.49 faster
Corvette Pro - 0.72 SLOWER
Meanwhile, the barometer Am cars:
Aston Am - 2.14 faster
Ferrari Am - 2.04 faster
Chevrolet Am - 1.89 faster
Porsche Am - 0.49 SLOWER
The Am cars picked up ~2 seconds from the cold weather and qualifying trim, while Ferrari & Ford had another ~2 seconds in the bag and Aston/Porsche/Corvette were sand bagging to get a BOP change, and got one. It just wasn't enough.
06-30-2016, 11:22 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Where did you get 6 seconds from?
IIRC, between the official test and qualifying, the laptimes were:
Ford Pro - 4.85 faster
Ferrari Pro - 4.34 faster
Aston Pro - 0.93 faster
Porsche Pro - 0.49 faster
Corvette Pro - 0.72 SLOWER
Meanwhile, the barometer Am cars:
Aston Am - 2.14 faster
Ferrari Am - 2.04 faster
Chevrolet Am - 1.89 faster
Porsche Am - 0.49 SLOWER
The Am cars picked up ~2 seconds from the cold weather and qualifying trim, while Ferrari & Ford had another ~2 seconds in the bag and Aston/Porsche/Corvette were sand bagging to get a BOP change, and got one. It just wasn't enough.
IIRC, between the official test and qualifying, the laptimes were:
Ford Pro - 4.85 faster
Ferrari Pro - 4.34 faster
Aston Pro - 0.93 faster
Porsche Pro - 0.49 faster
Corvette Pro - 0.72 SLOWER
Meanwhile, the barometer Am cars:
Aston Am - 2.14 faster
Ferrari Am - 2.04 faster
Chevrolet Am - 1.89 faster
Porsche Am - 0.49 SLOWER
The Am cars picked up ~2 seconds from the cold weather and qualifying trim, while Ferrari & Ford had another ~2 seconds in the bag and Aston/Porsche/Corvette were sand bagging to get a BOP change, and got one. It just wasn't enough.
06-30-2016, 02:12 PM
#21
Drifting
The above quote from FW shows that the 960 was being developed - but stopped for motorsport.
All of the changes are based on the new GTE technical regulations that were delayed by discussions to try to merge GTE and GT3. Those discussions failed - but now new regulations are in place. The rules favor turbos and both Ferrari and Ford built their cars to those regs. Porsche Motrosport indicated 3 or 4 years ago that they needed to build a new Motorsport engine but didn't want to invest the money until the new res were in place. Remails to be seen if it will be a variant of the 9a1.
All of the changes are based on the new GTE technical regulations that were delayed by discussions to try to merge GTE and GT3. Those discussions failed - but now new regulations are in place. The rules favor turbos and both Ferrari and Ford built their cars to those regs. Porsche Motrosport indicated 3 or 4 years ago that they needed to build a new Motorsport engine but didn't want to invest the money until the new res were in place. Remails to be seen if it will be a variant of the 9a1.
hmm......again, if they go turbo, fine. I'm just saying that turbo, or mid-engine isn't the cure-all in racing, especially in BOP environment. The only reason they were "vastly" better is because of the utter and complete failure of BOP by the ACO (and politics). It is an embarrassment when you get played to the tune of 6 seconds a lap.....
BOP is what allows for 12 manufacturers racing in Blaincpain/SRO, with 60+ GT car fields for many races. Somehow front engine turbo Bentley's win, NA mid engine Audi's win, and even, GASP, rear engine NA Porsche's win in PWC (which is now partly owed by SRO), which uses the identical BOP process.
You want "anything goes" racing? Enjoy it while it lasts. It always dies quickly.
I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagree.
BOP is what allows for 12 manufacturers racing in Blaincpain/SRO, with 60+ GT car fields for many races. Somehow front engine turbo Bentley's win, NA mid engine Audi's win, and even, GASP, rear engine NA Porsche's win in PWC (which is now partly owed by SRO), which uses the identical BOP process.
You want "anything goes" racing? Enjoy it while it lasts. It always dies quickly.
I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagree.
06-30-2016, 05:23 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The only reason GT racing has turbos is because government MPG/emissions regulations and marketing hype are requiring turbocharging to be used for production automobiles. GT racing requires homologation. That's it, otherwise, nobody would be choosing to endurance race turbo motors.....But they do not "favor" them in GT3 racing, which is honestly the future of GT racing, and has far more shaped the recent GT racing landscape than say, GTE category. That's without question. Their BOP for NA and turbo is also better.
If "Turbo" is the way, then I guess Audi, Lambo, Lexus, and Mercedes Benz also were caught flat footed with new for 2016 racecars all with NA motors, and somehow have also managed to win against the almighty mid-engine turbo configuration....
Audi R8 GT3 - V10
Lambo Huracan GT3- V10
Porsche GT3R - F6
Mercedes AMG GT3- V8
Chevy (Callaway) GT3 - V8
Lexus ISF GT3 - V8 (for 2017)
If "turbo" is the future of all GT racing (especially endurance racing), it's future is going to be shorter than it could be. Nobody but the manufacturers will be able to afford it......
07-01-2016, 07:33 AM
#23
Mvez, think part of the issue is that Porsche will not leave the flat 6 with the 911. Had they pursued the 960 - we may have seen a V-8.
07-01-2016, 05:42 PM
#24
If by "GT" racing you mean GTE/GTLM, then I would probably agree, simply because turbos are inherently more difficult to regulate. But Porsche wasn't caught flat footed, at all. FW also said Porsche CHOSE to continue to race the 911, and not the 960, because they know its the face of the company.....Porsche is always late to the party, because it's always their party. The only reason GT racing has turbos is because government MPG/emissions regulations and marketing hype are requiring turbocharging to be used for production automobiles. GT racing requires homologation. That's it, otherwise, nobody would be choosing to endurance race turbo motors..... But they do not "favor" them in GT3 racing, which is honestly the future of GT racing, and has far more shaped the recent GT racing landscape than say, GTE category. That's without question. Their BOP for NA and turbo is also better. If "Turbo" is the way, then I guess Audi, Lambo, Lexus, and Mercedes Benz also were caught flat footed with new for 2016 racecars all with NA motors, and somehow have also managed to win against the almighty mid-engine turbo configuration.... Audi R8 GT3 - V10 Lambo Huracan GT3- V10 Porsche GT3R - F6 Mercedes AMG GT3- V8 Chevy (Callaway) GT3 - V8 Lexus ISF GT3 - V8 (for 2017) If "turbo" is the future of all GT racing (especially endurance racing), it's future is going to be shorter than it could be. Nobody but the manufacturers will be able to afford it......
The only reason GT racing has turbos is because government MPG/emissions regulations and marketing hype are requiring turbocharging to be used for production automobiles. GT racing requires homologation. That's it, otherwise, nobody would be choosing to endurance race turbo motors..... But they do not "favor" them in GT3 racing, which is honestly the future of GT racing, and has far more shaped the recent GT racing landscape than say, GTE category. That's without question. Their BOP for NA and turbo is also better. If "Turbo" is the way, then I guess Audi, Lambo, Lexus, and Mercedes Benz also were caught flat footed with new for 2016 racecars all with NA motors, and somehow have also managed to win against the almighty mid-engine turbo configuration.... Audi R8 GT3 - V10 Lambo Huracan GT3- V10 Porsche GT3R - F6 Mercedes AMG GT3- V8 Chevy (Callaway) GT3 - V8 Lexus ISF GT3 - V8 (for 2017) If "turbo" is the future of all GT racing (especially endurance racing), it's future is going to be shorter than it could be. Nobody but the manufacturers will be able to afford it......Plus, I'd also like to add, the only reason turbos are so widespread in production vehicles at the moment is because manufactures look to downsize the engine which makes a car more fuel efficient, not the turbos. Manufacturers are cornered to put turbos on cars because marketing has them lead to believe that each car should get more power every generation. That is why you see all these manufacturers downsize the engine and add a turbo to please both EPA ratings and marketing prowess. This in turn translates to "GTE" cars being homologated on road cars and since they have turbos this has become the new direction of GTE Motorsport.
07-03-2016, 01:38 PM
#25
Drifting
A few updates from the last few days, and the IMSA 6 Hour race today at WGI.
Despite uninformed and entirely incorrect speculation to the contrary, Ford are committed to WEC AND IMSA through 2019: http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/f...-through-2019/
At ~2.5 hours into the 6 total, the GTLM class 911 RSRs are the anchors of the field, with the corvettes just ahead on pace. No NA car leads a Turbo car on pace.
But surely turbo engines are stupid! 🙄
Despite uninformed and entirely incorrect speculation to the contrary, Ford are committed to WEC AND IMSA through 2019: http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/f...-through-2019/
At ~2.5 hours into the 6 total, the GTLM class 911 RSRs are the anchors of the field, with the corvettes just ahead on pace. No NA car leads a Turbo car on pace.
But surely turbo engines are stupid! 🙄
07-03-2016, 03:21 PM
#26
Three Wheelin'
beat me to it
http://autoweek.com/article/imsa/for...n-imsa-and-wec
so guaranteed only 2 years Mvez?
http://autoweek.com/article/imsa/for...n-imsa-and-wec
so guaranteed only 2 years Mvez?
07-03-2016, 05:26 PM
#27
Drifting
beat me to it
http://autoweek.com/article/imsa/for...n-imsa-and-wec
so guaranteed only 2 years Mvez?
http://autoweek.com/article/imsa/for...n-imsa-and-wec
so guaranteed only 2 years Mvez?
Oh well, back to discussion of CXX decals, deviated stitching, Cars and Coffee, etc. instead of racing.
07-04-2016, 01:33 PM
#28
Drifting
More Drama from WGI:
http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/wa...ay-notebook-3/
I wonder who the source was, as FSW was likely not present.
http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/wa...ay-notebook-3/
***Sportscar365 has learned that Porsche’s new 2017-spec 911 GTE car has been testing with a normally aspirated engine, despite video evidence indicating a possible turbocharged powerplant. It’s understood a decision for the N/A engine came prior to the 24 Hours of Le Mans.
07-04-2016, 02:03 PM
#29
Nordschleife Master
A few updates from the last few days, and the IMSA 6 Hour race today at WGI.
Despite uninformed and entirely incorrect speculation to the contrary, Ford are committed to WEC AND IMSA through 2019: http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/f...-through-2019/
At ~2.5 hours into the 6 total, the GTLM class 911 RSRs are the anchors of the field, with the corvettes just ahead on pace. No NA car leads a Turbo car on pace.
But surely turbo engines are stupid! ��
Despite uninformed and entirely incorrect speculation to the contrary, Ford are committed to WEC AND IMSA through 2019: http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/f...-through-2019/
At ~2.5 hours into the 6 total, the GTLM class 911 RSRs are the anchors of the field, with the corvettes just ahead on pace. No NA car leads a Turbo car on pace.
But surely turbo engines are stupid! ��
Also, What is the weight difference in FGT, 488, Aston, Vette and Porsche? Can't be that much difference that a BOP can level out as far as weight and power differences. An NA motor can't compete against a turbo motor of near displacement. I get it. Seems like DOT, EPA and CAFE standards are driving whats going to be raced in the future and the NA is to be a relic I'm afraid.
I never understood why more money isn't spent on GT, GTE racing than LMP. Maybe I am missing something but I have way more interest in cars I can buy then those I can't in competition. The LMPs are cool but they have no relevance to me. I can't buy an LMP. I know they are test beds and show case what a manufacturer can do though.
I was really disappointed in PAG's failure to put any real effort into GT and GTE this year. Its almost like they conceded to Ford and Ferrari without firing a shot. It's like they sent up yesterdays technology against cutting edge technology knowing they would not win.
I watched part of the 6 Hours at the Glen. BMW M6 ran a respectable 3rd in GTE Pro and was challenging the FGT for the lead. It seem to me that PAG could have have put in enough mods and effort to the 991 RSR with a 9a1 to have run up front. Is the RSR not able of being made competitive with the M6, Audi or any of the rest? Really? I don't believe that for one minute. The GT3RS is in the top 5 fastest lap times at Laguna Seca as a road car.
The FGT is a race car that was developed to win at LeMans and in GTE. It is a street car 2nd and is to be made in very small numbers just enough to get homologated. To me its a "ringer" that should be in DP at this point. Not one single car ordered or produced for the public even today.
The GT3, 488, Aston, Audi and Corvette are truly production vehicles built to target a price budget and production figures that makes the car attainable to the guy who buys on Monday after watching racing on Sunday. FGT not so much. It was a special thrown into a class of street cars that were modified for racing as opposed to cars built specifically for racing.
Again, seems more fair to put the FGT in DP than GTE unless there was some serous BOP handed down to Ford. Am I wrong here????
Seems to me the 9a1 would be the better motor to run in GT, GTE. Makes more power than the Metzger and is lighter and revs higher.
I am trying to understand this sport and it is still a little confusing so pardon me if I sound dense.
