991 gt3 engine misfiring / letters
05-26-2016, 03:52 PM
#16
Nordschleife Master
Instead of wasting people's time and money,why don't they learn how to use a scope? Dumbas**s... Look at the cam and crank correlation and I guarantee you it will become obvious that the waveform on that particular cylinder(s) is off...
05-26-2016, 05:25 PM
#18
Race Director
05-26-2016, 05:42 PM
#19
You are going through the protocol. This is the standard procedure shop technicians must follow per the aforementioned PAG bulletin or else no reimbursement by PAG. Once apart the photographs of the camshafts and valve levers are sent to PCNA for Options 1-4 determination. Hope you get Option 1 blessing!
05-26-2016, 09:54 PM
#21
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Thread Starter
from what i saw today, the dealers are aware of the problem. when i pulled in they already had the tech sheets ready. its just a matter if that dealer sold enough gt3s that are hitting the track and if those are going down. my dealer said i was the first one that they had to deal with so far and they were very receptive of what happened and the data i brought them from the track and what i had read on this forum and i think they are handling it well. fingers crossed.
05-26-2016, 10:32 PM
#22
Typical dealership " technician " aka mechanic incompetence. Who would pay for a new coil pack if the car was not under warranty?! They're just monkeys holding a wrench,completely clueless and call themselves " technicians ". If I buy any electrical part from their " establishment " and open the bag I OWN IT!!! No returns on electrical parts. Who picks up the bill when they play swaptronics?! Bunch of mindless parts swapping gorillas...
PAG dictates EXACTLY how and when things happen. Including swapping coils and plugs to verify misfires, even with a known issue.
As an ex-dealer technician, who also personally dealt with this exact situation with one of my close customers, I can tell you that we (the parts swapping gorillas), my dealerships management, our regional rep, and even one of the guys Porsche trusts most in the US, could not sway PAG to fully replace an engine up until the very last moment, even with metal debris scattered throughout the entire system...
So as much as we appreciate your kind words, you're f*#king clueless. And exactly why most qualified technicians get a bad taste in their mouth, while fighting the system we all hate, in just trying to do their jobs properly. Or quit and move on in order to not deal with warranty work, PAG, or customers like you.
05-26-2016, 10:34 PM
#23
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tomraki
did you pick up the car yet and try it, I'm bringing mine in tomorrow to ray catena in edison, my fear is exactly what you went through, that a tech will clear the codes and tell me that all will be ok....i already "cleared" the codes with a PIWIS at the the track and the next run out they popped right back up. so I'm a little hesitant to hear what they have to say. what happened to you seems why too easy and i think they took the path of least (no) resistance and told you all will be ok!!! I have been reading these forums for the past 4 days now and this seems like a little more serious then meets the eye. is it really too coincidental that all these problems are surfacing "all of a sudden" ? i had a 997 and 997.2 gt3 and i never heard of the same issue over and over again, like there is a script that these cars are following. forgive my ignorance in conspiracy theory but there is something definitely wrong here. also would like to add, did your tech or dealer have any experience with rebuilding or diagnosing gt3 engines? i don't even think i have that kind of faith in my dealer at this point, i hope I'm wrong.. btw i communicated with your tech today via text and he mentioned what had happened to you..sorry to hear..i definitely feel your pain....
did you pick up the car yet and try it, I'm bringing mine in tomorrow to ray catena in edison, my fear is exactly what you went through, that a tech will clear the codes and tell me that all will be ok....i already "cleared" the codes with a PIWIS at the the track and the next run out they popped right back up. so I'm a little hesitant to hear what they have to say. what happened to you seems why too easy and i think they took the path of least (no) resistance and told you all will be ok!!! I have been reading these forums for the past 4 days now and this seems like a little more serious then meets the eye. is it really too coincidental that all these problems are surfacing "all of a sudden" ? i had a 997 and 997.2 gt3 and i never heard of the same issue over and over again, like there is a script that these cars are following. forgive my ignorance in conspiracy theory but there is something definitely wrong here. also would like to add, did your tech or dealer have any experience with rebuilding or diagnosing gt3 engines? i don't even think i have that kind of faith in my dealer at this point, i hope I'm wrong.. btw i communicated with your tech today via text and he mentioned what had happened to you..sorry to hear..i definitely feel your pain....
Bsavino
My dealer called me and said my car was ready for pick up. Do you by any chance have the bulletin number so I can ask my service advisor to look into it?
I'm really surprised that Ray Catena was already on the issue. I bought my GT3 from them and serviced with them for about 6 months. I was not a fan at all. Was always waiting for call backs, never got my car back on time, I even brought it in 3 times for the same issue and they hadn't resolved it. That's when I made the switch to service at Jack Daniels. Their customer service is impeccable. The advisor has called me twice since I dropped the car off and they even have this program where the technician working on your car sends you a video of your car, showing you the car and issues as he walks around and narrates.
That being said they hadn't brought up any bulletin to me so I definitely am concerned. I intend on driving the car very swiftly on my way home, shifting at 9k multiple times, in order to recreate the issue. It's not likely that I can recreate the issue being I won't be getting the car up to track temps but I'll give it a go.
If you can just post that bulletin number and keep us posted. I will let all know how tomorrow goes.
05-26-2016, 10:40 PM
#24
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Thread Starter
well put, i agree, PAG isn't going to just throw engines in these cars without due diligence, especially if an entire engine isn't needed and if they did i would loose respect for the system. diagnosing problems occurs in a step wise process in order to get it right, its what we do in medine (I'm a "person mechanic") and its the proper and thorough way to diagnose...not every problem or illness is cancer...
05-26-2016, 10:52 PM
#26
Nordschleife Master
Says someone who has no idea how the process works... PAG dictates EXACTLY how and when things happen. Including swapping coils and plugs to verify misfires, even with a known issue. As an ex-dealer technician, who also personally dealt with this exact situation with one of my close customers, I can tell you that we (the parts swapping gorillas), my dealerships management, our regional rep, and even one of the guys Porsche trusts most in the US, could not sway PAG to fully replace an engine up until the very last moment, even with metal debris scattered throughout the entire system... So as much as we appreciate your kind words, you're f*#king clueless. And exactly why most qualified technicians get a bad taste in their mouth, while fighting the system we all hate, in just trying to do their jobs properly. Or quit and move on in order to not deal with warranty work, PAG, or customers like you.
Forget the GT3,this happens across the board and after warranty the swapping game and missed diagnosis is paid by the customer. Because it's faster for you to swap a coil instead of looking at a coil ramp. And you work flat rate. Take a fat guess,if it works,you've just saved yourself 2 hours of diagnostic.
05-26-2016, 10:59 PM
#27
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05-26-2016, 11:18 PM
#28
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good luck...to just clear codes and send you on your way seems too easy...esp in light of what is going on in this forum. let us know how it goes.
Last edited by bsavino; 05-26-2016 at 11:55 PM.
05-27-2016, 12:42 AM
#29
Please go back and read what I've posted. Where did I mention that they should go straight to replacing the engine? That's absurd! That is the exact opposite of what I'm preaching here! I'm talking DIAGNOSTIC DIAGNOSTIC AND DIAGNOSTIC. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I SEEN DEALERSHIP TECHS SWAPPING PARTS???!!! YOU HAVE NO IDEA!!!
Forget the GT3,this happens across the board and after warranty the swapping game and missed diagnosis is paid by the customer. Because it's faster for you to swap a coil instead of looking at a coil ramp. And you work flat rate. Take a fat guess,if it works,you've just saved yourself 2 hours of diagnostic.
Forget the GT3,this happens across the board and after warranty the swapping game and missed diagnosis is paid by the customer. Because it's faster for you to swap a coil instead of looking at a coil ramp. And you work flat rate. Take a fat guess,if it works,you've just saved yourself 2 hours of diagnostic.
I didn't state that you mentioned "we" should go straight to replacing the engine. Because it didn't seem like the focal point of your rant, I merely left out all of the steps that are REQUIRED, as per Porsche, before replacement (or partial replacement) is performed. Which in the end, is the goal in resolving a customer's issue who spent $150k+ on a car with a failing engine.
I, as one of the aforementioned parts swapping gorillas, knew exactly what I was dealing with and why. So before I jumped to scopes and cam timing issues (or swapping parts), I checked the oil filter for debris.
Even after informing my contacts within PCNA of what we found and more than likely why due to the material present, I was still forced to follow pages upon pages of steps to confirm what we already knew.
Step 1 after clearing and verifying? Swap ignition coils and confirm fault within same cylinder(s).
Step 2? Swap spark plugs to confirm again.
All dictated, and required, verbatim by PAG. And all while I was losing money as a flat rate technician.
But I guess we should have just called you instead...
05-27-2016, 12:58 AM
#30
Nordschleife Master
Once again, says someone who has no idea how the process works... I didn't state that you mentioned "we" should go straight to replacing the engine. Because it didn't seem like the focal point of your rant, I merely left out all of the steps that are REQUIRED, as per Porsche, before replacement (or partial replacement) is performed. Which in the end, is the goal in resolving a customer's issue who spent $150k+ on a car with a failing engine. I, as one of the aforementioned parts swapping gorillas, knew exactly what I was dealing with and why. So before I jumped to scopes and cam timing issues (or swapping parts), I checked the oil filter for debris. Even after informing my contacts within PCNA of what we found and more than likely why due to the material present, I was still forced to follow pages upon pages of steps to confirm what we already knew. Step 1 after clearing and verifying? Swap ignition coils and confirm fault within same cylinder(s). Step 2? Swap spark plugs to confirm. All dictated, and required, verbatim by PAG. And all while I was losing money as a flat rate technician. But I guess we should have just called you instead...
I can't comment more on this procedure that PAG has imposed on you,except that it's a waste of time.
I'll leave it at that and apologize for the name calling. I do realize there are good technicians out there,just harder to find these days...
Take care...