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I concur with Eduardo that it makes no sense to offer
such a huge palette...if prospective owners don't even
know these $7500 option colors exist!
Originally Posted by Loess
I was a bit upset that I missed the PTS window...
Originally Posted by budrichard
As to PTS and Porsche Exclusive, well my two
experiences were both wanting.
-Richard
Originally Posted by Nizer
A lot of us couldn't get PTS...This is the last RS for me
if I can't get PTS on the next. Prices are up too much
and wait times too long to not get what I want.
Originally Posted by GreenLantern
I cannot +1 this any harder. It's been a horrid
experience for me this round.
Gents: The only way to perhaps change the PTS process
for the better is to contact Porsche (via 'Porsche Exclusive'
reps, for example) & let them know how you feel as a
Porsche customer!
Porsche Cars North America, Inc.
Porsche Exclusive - Personal Design Studio
One Porsche Drive
Atlanta, GA 30354
E-Mail: PersonalDesign@porsche.us
****
Originally Posted by mile2424
Didn't they just spend tons of money on a new environmental
friendly state of the art paint shop a few years or so ago? I find
it hard to believe they would be out-sourcing....
Yes...indeed!
***
Originally Posted by dark knight
...I am also truly shocked that Porsche would paint any car
outside of the factory, I presume the plastic parts are painted
elsewhere, but how can a 3rd party produce the quality that
the Zuffenhausen paint shop can?
Originally Posted by Loess
Maybe they are painted at one of the VW factories?
Well, the Panameras are presently welded together & painted
at a VW plant in Hannover. That arrangement will shortly end
& all welding & painting on the Panamera will be shifted to
Leipzig. The plan is to move final assembly of the Cayenne
to the Volkswagen Bratislava Plant, where a good portion of
that model is already done (welding together, paint & initial
assembly). That will free up space in Porsche Leipzig for all
the Panamera production, from A to Z ('sauf' engines, which
are all done at Zuffenhausen). The Macan is presently the
only model built (primarily) at Porsche Leipzig.
The Cayman are now all done at the VW Karmann plant in Osnabrück. That plant initially also assembled 981 Boxsters
but demand for the gt4 has made it mostly now a Cayman-
only assembly line. The 718 & 991 are built in Zuffenhausen.
And if Porsche does indeed sub-contract all PTS to a third
party, my bet would be that the facility used is the massive
Volkswagen's Mosel-Zwickau factory. That, believe it or not,
is where all Bentley Continental GT & GTC bodies are welded
& painted before they are shipped to Crewe England for final
assembly at that venerable factory!
Panorama of the Volkswagen Mosel-Zwickau factory
***
Originally Posted by lessthan3mph
Here's what I wrote in that email. It is my conjecture only, based
on my interpretation of observations. Full disclosure: I am NOT
in the know about how PTS really works. I'd love to be proved
wrong, but I think PTS is being managed in a very deliberate way.
"I've gotten the impression that PTS has turned into something
completely different from a standard option. It seems more and
more like PAG is using PTS to reward VIP customers and dealerships.
The way they've conducted PTS for the R was the pinnacle of this
practice. (It was entirely cloaked in secrecy: PTS allocations were
not randomly handed out, but were offered only to those with
exceedingly high VIP status but without any clarity other than to
those who were in the know.) Same with how they've made the
list confidential. And how they don't announce windows.
It's almost as if PTS is so popular and it's value beyond the list
price (massive impact on resale value, wow factor, prestige,
rarity, historic connection, etc), that PAG is now using that to
their advantage by making it a way to create a pecking order.
It's basically a way to give some customers preference and
special treatment above and beyond the allocation of the car
itself.
I think in order to maintain and benefit from this practice,
PAG has likely made a decision to keep PTS shrouded in
mystery. This secrecy allows them to set the rules and
creates a greater value for PTS. I'm not sure they currently
want all of the information about PTS made public. And I
suspect that is why you haven't yet been able to make the
trip to speak with them about PTS. I'm getting the feeling
it's basically what they want.
The truth is, we all (on RL) have benefited from information
that has put us in a position to take advantage of something
when ordering our cars (knowledge of options, what's desirable,
what colours are significant, what is the likely importance or
rarity of a new model, etc). Like you, I've tried to be open
about information that I've obtained. However, I have also
been entrusted with info that I've kept confidential. I suspect
the latter is the way PAG wants PTS to operate. Like a grey
market for information to those they want to inform.
While I think it would be great if you could get an interview,
I suspect all the info that PAG is willing to share has already
been shared with you. So tbh I'm doubtful they'll offer up
much more if and when you do meet with them.
I've just been getting that feeling more and more as I think
about things. I was fortunate to get PTS on my (originally
2014 spec) GT3. But in the intervening few years it has
gotten much harder for first time customers like me. Now
it is a huge accomplishment to land a PTS slot."
And it is really irking many customers when PTS is unachievable.
As today's "PTS Confidential" poll
seems to indicate, there is very strong (90% or more) support
from some of Porsche's most loyal, knowledgeable, and passionate
enthusiasts (yes, RLer's, take a bow) to make the PTS approved
colour list public. I hope this little bit of info will help emphasize
that point with PAG.
Thanks again, Eduardo, for all your help and info about PTS.
I benefitted a lot from it, and I hope others will be able to
continue to do so in the future. PAG, LISTEN TO EDUARDO,
AND PLEASE GIVE HIM THE CHANCE TO SPEAK TO YOUR
REPRESENTATIVES CANDIDLY ABOUT THE PTS PROGRAM!
Thank you Daniel for your many contributions
to our collective knowledge of PTS at Porsche!
***
Originally Posted by Houndstooth
Mind Boggling: PAG, pick 20 colors from the PTS list,
charge $10,000 as an option. Done. Want a super
special color? $15,000
Ferrari charges $12,500 for OUT OF RANGE COLOR
(PAG PTS) paint colors and $26,500 for true PTS
(if you want your car to match your sofa).
Porsche should use this terminology as well
Originally Posted by usctrojanGT3
Paint to Sofa?
Well, he is not that far off! How about 'Paint to Wife's Shoe'?
Does/can anyone on the outside know more about PTS than Eduardo?
Thanks Pete...I & others here at Rennlist work very hard at it to
make known as much useful information as humanly possible on
this interesting subject, without stepping over the line of confidentiality
with information obtained from reliable sources at Porsche!
***
Let me put this in perspective so that everyone knows precisely
what Pete Stout is referring to in his response today! Here is a
copy of my recent post which mentions Pete by name!
Originally Posted by JanisK
That perfectly explains why the finish on a PTS car is not like
on a stock car �� with stock car being the standard and PTS
somewhat catching up with it. Should it not be the other way
round?
Funny you should say that. I ran into Pete Stout, editor of
PCA's Panorama at the IMSA Laguna Seca race this past
weekend. In discussing the topic, he mentioned that he
thinks that PTS cars have a superior finish to the standard
'stock' cars known to be painted at Zuffenhausen. He
specifically mentioned to me the superb paint (lack of
orange peel in particular) on our friend Jeff Zwart's old
PTS 'Meerblau' 997 gt3 RS 4.0 Limited Edition:
I hope Pete, a frequent Rennlist contributor, chimes in
on his thoughts on the subject. He recently wrote an
editorial about PTS in Panorama, so he is quite knowledgeable
on the subject!
By the way, our own 'Sportscentury', my good friend from
Idaho, wrote an interesting letter to the editor in response
to Pete's PTS column. You can read it in the latest edition
of Panorama:
[/QUOTE]
And here is Pete's reply today to that post:
Originally Posted by stout
In that conversation—nice to run into you, Eduardo!—I did
mention something I had remembered from a discussion
about Jeff's RS 4.0: Several people had noticed that car's
nice paint surfaces and different texture/lack of orange
peel compared to normal 987/997 paint. I also have been
thinking about some of the paint flaws or "rough/unpolished
edges" documented in some GT4 color correction threads
(was it the GT4 colour thread on Pistonheads?) with photos
that showed examples. Those rough edges looked like
leftovers from hand work to me, but who can know?
It did make me wonder if the same areas on Porsches
in standard colors would show similar flaws in the finish.
Might be interesting to park a few PTS cars with a few
standard color cars and really look at the finish and
texture of the painted surfaces. If it comes from the
same shops and the same machines...it should probably
have the same surfaces. Of course, there may be another
explanation if it doesn't, but it might point to an
off-site painter.
Sounds like a case for the PTS Whisperer...
PTS Whisperer indeed...I just wish PAG would allow
us to understand how the PTS program really works
so that we can even the playing field. The 'little' guy,
if a normal relatively wealthy Porsche customer can
be described as such, might not ever get an opportunity
to order a Limited Edition like the 911R...but he should
have at least a crack at PTS! For heavens sake...our
money is equally as 'green' as those of 918 VIPs!
And we are the loyal customers that have stood with
Porsche our entire lifetime as customers through thick
...and thin!
Did PAG or PCNA respond to your Editor's Note in which
you made some helpful suggestions re PTS in the pages of
PCA's Panorama! To protect copyright material, the image
of your PTS article is too small to read on this post but I
encourage all to open their Feb edition of Pano & read it!
Standard colours are white and GT silver. There are three other special colours (black, racing yellow, lava orange), which I understand are not automatically approved and are being somewhat restricted. And everything else is PTS, which has been very very limited in availability.
My cleaning lady during her break confirmed 50 "true" PTS R's. Should be easier hopefully to track those down. How many Rennlisters are among the lucky 50 then?
Standard colours are white and GT silver. There are three
other special colours (black, racing yellow, lava orange),
which I understand are not automatically approved and
are being somewhat restricted. And everything else is PTS,
which has been very very limited in availability.
Correct. PAG first announced just two standard colors
('White' & 'GT Silver') for the 911R:
Then the news came that they had decided to allow three additional
colors on the model, but on special request & in need of pre-approval:
Although I am not sure when it was confirmed, 'Black', 'Racing Yellow' &
'Lava Orange' appear to be priced as PTS!
As some of you might recall, 'Black', 'Racing Yellow' & 'Miami Blue' were
priced as PTS on the 991 gt3 RS. In the latter, these three could only be
ordered if you were originally approved for PTS. In the 911R, these colors
perhaps are available to anyone with a 911R allocation but must be first
pre-approved.
As a reminder, 'Black' and 'Racing Yellow' are no-cost options on a 991.
And 'Miami Blue' or 'Lava Orange' are $3,140 'Special Colors' available
to anyone:
And as Daniel mentions, PTS was allowed on the 911R to only a very
select group of customers already with the limited allocation.
Daniel, can you provide us more info on the final pricing & required
approval process for these 3 colors ('Black', 'Racing Yellow' & 'Lava
Orange') on the 911R? Thanks in advance.
I don't know any details about the approval process for the three special pseudo-pts colours, just that I've heard that not all those who requested them were approved. Similar to pts this is not a "regular" option that you request and automatically get. Not as restrictive as true pts but not wide open approval like requesting, say, a front lift or radio delete. Same with the smfw which was limited, presumably (???also) by production limitations.
If I were to speculate, there is some pecking order that pag uses to determine approval and not simply random chance. I would expect them to use these sorts of options to "reward" loyal and highly valued VIPs. True pts being the platinum level and pseudo-pts being like the gold level. Just getting an R is essentially like silver level. And getting any other GT car in pts is bronze. I would think getting a non-pts GT car is currently like a "participation" ribbon. And if you didn't get a GT allocation it is like a DNF in their books. (eek!!) I fully expect more limited edition and GT models will be offered in this sort of manner in the foreseeable future.
In retrospect I feel very lucky to have secured a pts gt3 as a first time customer!
If I were to speculate, there is some pecking order
that pag uses to determine approval and not simply
random chance. I would expect them to use these
sorts of options to "reward" loyal and highly valued
VIPs. True pts being the platinum level and pseudo-
pts being like the gold level. Just getting an R is
essentially like silver level. And getting any other
GT car in pts is bronze. I would think getting a
non-pts GT car is currently like a "participation"
ribbon...
Did he really say 'Participation' ribbon?
Perhaps in Canada. Here in the good-old USA, as most of you know,
we get a real trophy when we buy a standard 'run-of-the-mill' 991 in
a non-PTS color:
As hard as it is to acquire a 991R due to limited and numbered production, has anyone been contacted by "Car Flipper/Broker" what is the 991R PTS cost/sell/offered in the black market?
As hard as it is to acquire a 991R due to limited and numbered production, has anyone been contacted by "Car Flipper/Broker" what is the 991R PTS cost/sell/offered in the black market?
Drive safe,
GT3RS-Fan1
As of last Sunday, 275K over sticker for my true PTS 911R allocation from my local dealer GM. I politely told him "Hell No!"
05-06-2016, 09:44 PM
