911R Weight Reduction
03-18-2016, 01:25 PM
#16
The reason for for my doing this, candidly, is fun and only that. As to the owners of the R, if they are going to park it and never drive it, there is little or no reason to anything other than for fun. If they are going to use it and want to reduce weight with all of the benefits arising therefrom, I believe this to be a good idea. Further, I will try to make the parts readily interchangable such that, if desired, owners can put the original heavier parts back on the car. In any event, this car is meant to be a driver's car and the motivation for any owner to do should be to improve its ability as this. Indeed, as I have said, the best way to value a car is at $0 as soon as one takes delivery and then there will never be any disappointment.
03-18-2016, 07:53 PM
#19
1. As to the ducktail, of course one could be done in carbon fiber but, to take advantage of even small economies of scale, we should produce at least 10 kits, and, as such, it would be so very much better to keep Kit 1 as a standard and either wait for Kit 2 or perhaps a few others would like it now so as to pay the cost of a proper mold tool (i.e., I will do anything for this effort that I can but will not make a second class part).
2. Carbon fiber doors (including an interior crash bar) can be made as part of Kit 2 but that will require quite a bit of painting, and depending upon the exterior color, might require a repainting of the entire car to get a perfect match (p.s., will a repainting affect the long term value and do you care?)
3. Interior doors can also be done as part of Kit 2 - do you want them leather covered (in which case please order a few extra hides with your car so that there are no matching hide problems) or uncovered (in either case, we need to mix a bit of Kevlar together with the carbon fiber for tear resistance because, if not, in the case of a severe accident, the carbon fiber panels might crack and the resulting shards could be so sharp that the occupants might be in danger in the case of impact).
2. Carbon fiber doors (including an interior crash bar) can be made as part of Kit 2 but that will require quite a bit of painting, and depending upon the exterior color, might require a repainting of the entire car to get a perfect match (p.s., will a repainting affect the long term value and do you care?)
3. Interior doors can also be done as part of Kit 2 - do you want them leather covered (in which case please order a few extra hides with your car so that there are no matching hide problems) or uncovered (in either case, we need to mix a bit of Kevlar together with the carbon fiber for tear resistance because, if not, in the case of a severe accident, the carbon fiber panels might crack and the resulting shards could be so sharp that the occupants might be in danger in the case of impact).
03-18-2016, 08:12 PM
#21
Exhausts - a number of people have asked which of inconel (718), steel (321) or titanium will result in the lightest exhaust system. Simply, assumiung proper manufacture, the answer is titanium. Given this, I am looking at Arkrapovic to see if it good enough (as Porsche uses their mufflers for R and GT3 RS, it should be) for, if it is not, we might go to the step (which I would truly like to avoid) of making exhausts totally by hand, which would be time consuming and extremely expensive - but the best there can be usually is.
Last edited by Robert Linton; 05-15-2016 at 05:55 PM.
03-19-2016, 02:33 AM
#22
Thre more I read about the new R, the more I believe that, together, by reaching back to the original R, we can take an excellent base and turn it into something truly spectacular.
03-19-2016, 11:12 AM
#23
Thought you might like to see this, a part of a test exhaust in 321 stainless for an older Porsche. Good work for only a test unit. I have also added pictures of a stainless exhust for a BMW Z8, thoughtful redesign saved over 50% of the weight from stock.
03-19-2016, 07:28 PM
#26
Carbon fiber wheels.
As some have expressed an interest in carbon fiber wheels, let me give you my opinion, thoough, ultimately, the choice is yours.
First, to me, the look of a good metal wheel is better than that of a CF wheel, though, in racing, those who make them, say that the stiffness of CF wheels provides an advantage while the makers of metal wheels say it might actually be a disadvantage. Additionally, unlike metal, it is hard to perform stress testing on carbon wheels and getting certain approvals (e.g., TUV) seems a challenge. Further, as the density of CF is approximately that of CF, total wheel weights should be close other than for some claimed manufacturing advantages of CF.
Second, as the R is meant to be a road, not a race, car, I would think that some of the claimed advantages of CF would not be that important.
Third, notwithstanding any of the above, I thought I would speak with the two currently apparently viable manufacturers of CF wheels, Carbon Revolution and Koenigsegg.
My first discussion was with Brett Gass, Executive Director of Carbon Revolution. In doing this, I went under two assumptions: (1) that no one would want the same wheel as is being used for the Ford Mustang 350R and (ii) that everyone would want to keep the R's center lock system. For Carbon Revolution, that would mean new design, new tooling and new testing. For this, Mr. Gass suggested a cost of approximately $300,000 which, asuming 15 car sets (i.e., 60 wheels), means an "R&D" cost of $5000 per wheel (i.e., $300,000 divided by 60). Further, Mr. Gass suggested a cost per wheel of approximately $5000. In sum, assuming 15 participants in Kit 1, the cost for a custom Carbon Revolution wheel would be $10,000 each (of course, if there were more than 15 participants, the R&D cost per wheel would decrease, if less than 15, it would increase). I then asked Mr. Gass what Ford was paying per wheel and, of course, he would not tell me. Knowing a bit about CF and producing CF parts myself, I suspect that the price to Ford was less than two thousand dollars. Given this, I asked Mr. Gass why he would propose to charge us so much and, to his credit, he was honest and said, "because I can", i.e., no current competition. Ladies and Gentlemen, while I do not know much about most who might be reading this, for myself, no matter how much money one has, $10,000 for one wheel that, in any event, does little, if anything, for, specifically, the R, seems silly and I would take a pass on Carbon Revolution. And, finally, Mr. Gass mentioned that, given his production schedule, you might not see wheels until next year.
As for Koenigsegg, this morning I communicated by email with Christian von Koenigsegg and he gave me a firm flat price of $60,000 per wheel set, i.e., $15,000 per wheel. And while, given the far less automated method for producing CF wheels used by Koenigsegg than is used by Carbon Revolution, there is justification for a higher price than is charged by Carbon Revolution, given the Carbon Revolution price is, in my opinion, absurd, I think the Koenigsegg price even more unacceptable. Additionally, if you wanted a design different from the one currently used by Koenigsegg in its own cars, the price would be still higher.
Ladies and Gentlemen, as you can get the best possible one-piece forged magnesium wheels, painted to the color of your choice, for very much less than either of the above (I should have final pricing next week), I would suggest this route for Kit 1. However, if you wish, I will proceed with either of Carbon Revolution or Koenigsegg.
Lastly, if you wish to discuss this or anything else, I am at my desk all weekend (212-628-6778).
As some have expressed an interest in carbon fiber wheels, let me give you my opinion, thoough, ultimately, the choice is yours.
First, to me, the look of a good metal wheel is better than that of a CF wheel, though, in racing, those who make them, say that the stiffness of CF wheels provides an advantage while the makers of metal wheels say it might actually be a disadvantage. Additionally, unlike metal, it is hard to perform stress testing on carbon wheels and getting certain approvals (e.g., TUV) seems a challenge. Further, as the density of CF is approximately that of CF, total wheel weights should be close other than for some claimed manufacturing advantages of CF.
Second, as the R is meant to be a road, not a race, car, I would think that some of the claimed advantages of CF would not be that important.
Third, notwithstanding any of the above, I thought I would speak with the two currently apparently viable manufacturers of CF wheels, Carbon Revolution and Koenigsegg.
My first discussion was with Brett Gass, Executive Director of Carbon Revolution. In doing this, I went under two assumptions: (1) that no one would want the same wheel as is being used for the Ford Mustang 350R and (ii) that everyone would want to keep the R's center lock system. For Carbon Revolution, that would mean new design, new tooling and new testing. For this, Mr. Gass suggested a cost of approximately $300,000 which, asuming 15 car sets (i.e., 60 wheels), means an "R&D" cost of $5000 per wheel (i.e., $300,000 divided by 60). Further, Mr. Gass suggested a cost per wheel of approximately $5000. In sum, assuming 15 participants in Kit 1, the cost for a custom Carbon Revolution wheel would be $10,000 each (of course, if there were more than 15 participants, the R&D cost per wheel would decrease, if less than 15, it would increase). I then asked Mr. Gass what Ford was paying per wheel and, of course, he would not tell me. Knowing a bit about CF and producing CF parts myself, I suspect that the price to Ford was less than two thousand dollars. Given this, I asked Mr. Gass why he would propose to charge us so much and, to his credit, he was honest and said, "because I can", i.e., no current competition. Ladies and Gentlemen, while I do not know much about most who might be reading this, for myself, no matter how much money one has, $10,000 for one wheel that, in any event, does little, if anything, for, specifically, the R, seems silly and I would take a pass on Carbon Revolution. And, finally, Mr. Gass mentioned that, given his production schedule, you might not see wheels until next year.
As for Koenigsegg, this morning I communicated by email with Christian von Koenigsegg and he gave me a firm flat price of $60,000 per wheel set, i.e., $15,000 per wheel. And while, given the far less automated method for producing CF wheels used by Koenigsegg than is used by Carbon Revolution, there is justification for a higher price than is charged by Carbon Revolution, given the Carbon Revolution price is, in my opinion, absurd, I think the Koenigsegg price even more unacceptable. Additionally, if you wanted a design different from the one currently used by Koenigsegg in its own cars, the price would be still higher.
Ladies and Gentlemen, as you can get the best possible one-piece forged magnesium wheels, painted to the color of your choice, for very much less than either of the above (I should have final pricing next week), I would suggest this route for Kit 1. However, if you wish, I will proceed with either of Carbon Revolution or Koenigsegg.
Lastly, if you wish to discuss this or anything else, I am at my desk all weekend (212-628-6778).
Last edited by Robert Linton; 03-24-2016 at 03:22 PM.
03-20-2016, 02:06 AM
#27
Race Car
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
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In beginning the effort to reduce weight in the 911R, as certain areas are better than others the following might first be preferable:
1. rear weight;
2. higher up rear weight;
3. unsprung weight;
4. rotating weight;
With this in mind, and given one looses automotive weight ounces at a time, the first step might be the creation of an initial lightweight kit to include:
One-Piece Forged Magnesium Wheels
Lightweight Alternator
Lightweight Starter
DR-25 (M Spec) Wiring Harness
Lightweight Specialty Alloy Rear Axles with 10 Ceramic Ball CVs
Carbon Fiber Retractable Rear Spoiler
Carbon Fiber Induction System
Carbon Fiber Oil Tank
Lightweight Hoses
Aluminum Metal Matrix Composite Engine Pulleys
Wire Electro-Discharge Machined Specialty Alloy Transmission Output Flanges
Titanium Suspension Springs
Carbon Fiber Anti Roll Bars
Full Titanium Exhaust
Titanium Front Hood and Engine Compartment Lid Hinges
Together, these items should reduce weight by 50+kg with some of it rearward, some of it higher up in the rear, some of it rotating and some of it unsprung. Further, other than the wiring harness (always a major source of weight reduction in a "production" car), all of the above is easily reversible and, outwardly, other than the retractable rear spoiler if one chooses not to paint the carbon fiber, will not draw any attention to the car. Additionally, much of the above could be used for the GT3 and the GT3RS.
1. rear weight;
2. higher up rear weight;
3. unsprung weight;
4. rotating weight;
With this in mind, and given one looses automotive weight ounces at a time, the first step might be the creation of an initial lightweight kit to include:
One-Piece Forged Magnesium Wheels
Lightweight Alternator
Lightweight Starter
DR-25 (M Spec) Wiring Harness
Lightweight Specialty Alloy Rear Axles with 10 Ceramic Ball CVs
Carbon Fiber Retractable Rear Spoiler
Carbon Fiber Induction System
Carbon Fiber Oil Tank
Lightweight Hoses
Aluminum Metal Matrix Composite Engine Pulleys
Wire Electro-Discharge Machined Specialty Alloy Transmission Output Flanges
Titanium Suspension Springs
Carbon Fiber Anti Roll Bars
Full Titanium Exhaust
Titanium Front Hood and Engine Compartment Lid Hinges
Together, these items should reduce weight by 50+kg with some of it rearward, some of it higher up in the rear, some of it rotating and some of it unsprung. Further, other than the wiring harness (always a major source of weight reduction in a "production" car), all of the above is easily reversible and, outwardly, other than the retractable rear spoiler if one chooses not to paint the carbon fiber, will not draw any attention to the car. Additionally, much of the above could be used for the GT3 and the GT3RS.
i heard the R manual gearbox is a PDK derived one
a very heavy 100Kg easy fix
03-20-2016, 02:25 AM
#30
Race Car
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: The way to hell is paved by good intentions “Wenn ich Purist höre...entsichere ich meinen Browning” "Myths are fuel for marketing (and nowadays for flippers too,,,)" time to time is not sufficient to be a saint, you must be also an Hero
Posts: 4,437
Received 421 Likes
on
249 Posts
