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Old 12-22-2016, 07:58 AM
  #541  
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Originally Posted by ChrisF View Post
I do, based on past reference data.

997.1 GT3 RS vs. 997.2 GT3. One could argue that in pretty much every performance metric, the .2 is "better" than the .1 RS (3.8L engine; better sorted suspension, etc). Yet, the market has spoken and values favor the RS because, well...it's an RS. There is a reason so many here lust after them. They are the pinnacle of the GT dep's efforts at any given point in history. As such, they tend to hold value better. Volume may skew this in the future but that's the current history.

I'm sure the .2 GT3 will be epic. Every one that comes after is markedly better. I just think you're placing too much weight on performance as an indicator of future value. At the end of the day, these cars are depreciating assets. Better to drive than worry about it.
Agree. Chris Harris made that exact comment in his review original review about the performance of the 997.2 GT3 over the 997.1 GT3RS. Look at the market today!

What I'm trying to understand is what is Porsche racing with these days in the 991GT3R and the RSR. What are the differences to the street GTs?
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:37 AM
  #542  
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Originally Posted by Guest89 View Post
GT3 will be "better" than RS (cheaper, as fast or faster, better engine) and will offer the unique novelty of a manual transmission in a GT series 911 for the first time in the best part of a decade.

At initial launch, with considerable pent-up demand and vanishingly few highly desirable spec cars (manual, LWFW if offered, buckets), I believe the market clearing delta to MSRP will be higher for the nicest cars than that on the recently obsolete 991 GT3 RS, of which they delivered more examples than they have for any other Motorsport division car in the history of the company.
David: Disagree and here is why.

First and foremost "because RS". Its just that simple. I mean just look at it.

While the current RS has been made in numbers in excess over past generations there is are reasons why. Demand. The 991 RS generated demand like no other in the past. Demand still exceeds supply as guys still want them but can't get them at list and won't pay the current market of $25K or so to get one. This is going into '17 for a '16. Chris Harris nailed it when he reviewed the car early on that "the want is strong with this one".

The G engine has so far proved to be reliable. Each engine variation and generation has had its issues some serious like the IMS. While E & F engines of the 9A have had intermittent issues with valve train wear the vast majority of those engines seem to be doing fine. Unless they go to solid lifters its going to be the same engine basically with perhaps more oiling.

The .2 will likely be the 4.0. Changed my mind. Primarily because they want more power and best way and most reliable way is to increase displacement which also allow them to back down on the 9000 rpm red line which I think personally was a "little" too aggressive with not quite enough oiling at those levels under certain g load conditions at the outer cylinders. MHO.

However, the new 4.0 will be 10 or so hp less then the RS engine. Not a major difference but a "difference".

MT. Yes it will be quite a draw for some. However, even the polls on the choice between Mt and PDK here had it close to 50/50. Today, not everyone wants MT. More and more do not. Hard core Porschefiles maybe but some of them have even come around. The PDK/sequential takes the car to another level performance wise.

Faster. Nope. Not with MT. With PDK maybe close but wider track of RS and slightly better aero for the RS for the photo finish.

The cars that may get hurt in value are the R and older 997 GT3's. Not the older RS which is an RS and has a charm of its own. Why would I pay $500K for an R when I can buy a GT3 mt that is the same car?. If they offer a wing delete I'm doubling down on this.

The 991RS will still be substantially different than the new GT3.2. RS has carbon fenders, wider track front and rear, magnesium roof, larger wing, fender vents and scoops and again those two little letters "RS".

They will make as many .2 GT3 as .1 GT3. They are interested in MONEY. Especially since VW is steering the micro bus they are on now.

Also, there is a good chance that the 991RS may be the last NA RS. I mean seriously. Just look where performance cars are going. TT critical mass is building seriously. Just look at the AMG GT R supposedly posting better times at the ring then the 918 and P1. Its a $200K car. How does any performance car manufacturer expect to keep up by 2019/2020 with NA??? Tell me I'd love to know. There is no BOP in the public market and on the street or at DE.

One simple test. All those who be willing to trade there 991GT3RS for a new GT3 even up (thats the key) say "I" below.

I'll start.

Nay.
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:55 AM
  #543  
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Cmon GT3 IS the Core product
RS is just a GT3 parts bin plus carbon plastic here n there

go figure i have an RS on order if any .2 released

but the next GT3 will 4 sure be much better than any past RS
whilst from GT3 to RS the increase is very little


collectionism thus higher residual value was due by lower RS produced than GT3

which doesn't look the same for 991.1RS

buy whatever you think fits better to you
without pretending this is absolurely the best
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:28 AM
  #544  
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Originally Posted by Waxer View Post
David: Disagree and here is why.

First and foremost "because RS". Its just that simple. I mean just look at it.

While the current RS has been made in numbers in excess over past generations there is are reasons why. Demand. The 991 RS generated demand like no other in the past. Demand still exceeds supply as guys still want them but can't get them at list and won't pay the current market of $25K or so to get one. This is going into '17 for a '16. Chris Harris nailed it when he reviewed the car early on that "the want is strong with this one".

The G engine has so far proved to be reliable. Each engine variation and generation has had its issues some serious like the IMS. While E & F engines of the 9A have had intermittent issues with valve train wear the vast majority of those engines seem to be doing fine. Unless they go to solid lifters its going to be the same engine basically with perhaps more oiling.

The .2 will likely be the 4.0. Changed my mind. Primarily because they want more power and best way and most reliable way is to increase displacement which also allow them to back down on the 9000 rpm red line which I think personally was a "little" too aggressive with not quite enough oiling at those levels under certain g load conditions at the outer cylinders. MHO.

However, the new 4.0 will be 10 or so hp less then the RS engine. Not a major difference but a "difference".

MT. Yes it will be quite a draw for some. However, even the polls on the choice between Mt and PDK here had it close to 50/50. Today, not everyone wants MT. More and more do not. Hard core Porschefiles maybe but some of them have even come around. The PDK/sequential takes the car to another level performance wise.

Faster. Nope. Not with MT. With PDK maybe close but wider track of RS and slightly better aero for the RS for the photo finish.

The cars that may get hurt in value are the R and older 997 GT3's. Not the older RS which is an RS and has a charm of its own. Why would I pay $500K for an R when I can buy a GT3 mt that is the same car?. If they offer a wing delete I'm doubling down on this.

The 991RS will still be substantially different than the new GT3.2. RS has carbon fenders, wider track front and rear, magnesium roof, larger wing, fender vents and scoops and again those two little letters "RS".

They will make as many .2 GT3 as .1 GT3. They are interested in MONEY. Especially since VW is steering the micro bus they are on now.

Also, there is a good chance that the 991RS may be the last NA RS. I mean seriously. Just look where performance cars are going. TT critical mass is building seriously. Just look at the AMG GT R supposedly posting better times at the ring then the 918 and P1. Its a $200K car. How does any performance car manufacturer expect to keep up by 2019/2020 with NA??? Tell me I'd love to know. There is no BOP in the public market and on the street or at DE.

One simple test. All those who be willing to trade there 991GT3RS for a new GT3 even up (thats the key) say "I" below.

I'll start.

Nay.
Well said and drop the mic! By the way the 4.0 has not been confirmed for thr .2GT3. It's borderline ticking off R owners. I don't know one RS owner that will swap for a GT3, I sold mine for the RS. Totally context best car for the money, and will always be tradable.
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Old 12-22-2016, 11:14 AM
  #545  
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Come on now boys... "R" will be a unicorn. .2 GT3 will not likely impact "R" value or **** of "R" owners. [email protected] Wingless GT3 dreamers
How much is the original "R" selling for now?

RS is RS, but will owners be upset if the .2 GT3 was faster?
-I wouldn't care, because RS...

If 991 3RS is not the last NA RS, will it bother you owners?

Food for thought...
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Old 12-22-2016, 11:35 AM
  #546  
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Won't bother me either way.
RS is RS.

I dont mind TT either but sound of NA is special.
It's the $$ of the GT2RS that's likely my only issue.
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Old 12-22-2016, 12:30 PM
  #547  
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Take a snap shot of the two models resale over the last decade and you have your answer. As Mooty says these two letters RS are worth 100k.
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Old 12-22-2016, 12:37 PM
  #548  
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Originally Posted by TRAKCAR
Won't bother me either way.
RS is RS.

I dont mind TT either but sound of NA is special.
It's the $$ of the GT2RS that's likely my only issue.
Agree!

Don't mind turbo. If price is within reason and possible to customize I will get gt2rs.
Will need some aftermarket exhaust but that's easy fix.
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Old 12-22-2016, 02:13 PM
  #549  
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Originally Posted by Guest89
Do you specifically disagree with the content of my arguments, or just how they make you feel inside?
Name:  photo180.jpg
Views: 777
Size:  1.19 MB

Not sure how my statement disagreed with your argument??? But I do know how this ^^^ makes me feel inside. And I do know both will be amazing cars, but I still own my past RS's, while I have sold the gt3's since.
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Old 12-22-2016, 02:19 PM
  #550  
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Originally Posted by fxz View Post
Cmon GT3 IS the Core product
RS is just a GT3 parts bin plus carbon plastic here n there

go figure i have an RS on order if any .2 released

but the next GT3 will 4 sure be much better than any past RS
whilst from GT3 to RS the increase is very little


collectionism thus higher residual value was due by lower RS produced than GT3

which doesn't look the same for 991.1RS

buy whatever you think fits better to you
without pretending this is absolurely the best

+1 - It's easy to tell who thinks the 991.1 RS is the best Porsche ever built, will be the last NA RS ever built, will be worth $100K over MSRP for the next 50 years...people who currently own a 991.1 RS.

Next model is ALWAYS better. It just takes a different amount of time for each person to admit it.
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Old 12-22-2016, 02:22 PM
  #551  
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Originally Posted by Waxer View Post

One simple test. All those who be willing to trade there 991GT3RS for a new GT3 even up (thats the key) say "I" below.

I'll start.

Nay.
Not exactly a sound or logical argument considering the base MSRP of the 991.2 GT3RS is $45K more than the base MSRP of the 991.1 GT3. Even if the 991.2 GT3 is $10K more than the 991.1 GT3, it's still a $35K difference.

Logic and math always win over emotion.
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Old 12-22-2016, 02:24 PM
  #552  
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For humans, emotion beats logic and math
at least 92.8% of the time.
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Old 12-22-2016, 04:54 PM
  #553  
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Originally Posted by mass27 View Post
+1 - It's easy to tell who thinks the 991.1 RS is the best Porsche ever built, will be the last NA RS ever built, will be worth $100K over MSRP for the next 50 years...people who currently own a 991.1 RS. Next model is ALWAYS better. It just takes a different amount of time for each person to admit it.
Works both ways right? Let me guess you don't own an RS right?
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:41 PM
  #554  
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Originally Posted by Guest89 View Post
GT3 will be "better" than RS (cheaper, as fast or faster, better engine) and will offer the unique novelty of a manual transmission in a GT series 911 for the first time in the best part of a decade.

At initial launch, with considerable pent-up demand and vanishingly few highly desirable spec cars (manual, LWFW if offered, buckets), I believe the market clearing delta to MSRP will be higher for the nicest cars than that on the recently obsolete 991 GT3 RS, of which they delivered more examples than they have for any other Motorsport division car in the history of the company.
Let's revisit what I actually said.

What is the consensus "market" over MSRP for an RS now? $20-$30k, right?

I have argued that the 991.2 GT3 WITH manual transmission WITH LWFW (if offered) WITH buckets - which will be a very rare subset of all 991.2 GT3s delivered - will trade at a higher premium to MSRP vs. the outgoing RS when it's brand new and supply is very, very limited, and someone just has to have it right away.

The consensus expectation is that MSRP on the 991.2 GT3 will probably be $14X,XXX, right? I made zero claim about the absolute market clearing prices, only the relationship between clearing price and MSRP.

Originally Posted by ChrisF View Post
I do, based on past reference data.

997.1 GT3 RS vs. 997.2 GT3. One could argue that in pretty much every performance metric, the .2 is "better" than the .1 RS (3.8L engine; better sorted suspension, etc). Yet, the market has spoken and values favor the RS because, well...it's an RS. There is a reason so many here lust after them. They are the pinnacle of the GT dep's efforts at any given point in history. As such, they tend to hold value better. Volume may skew this in the future but that's the current history.

I'm sure the .2 GT3 will be epic. Every one that comes after is markedly better. I just think you're placing too much weight on performance as an indicator of future value. At the end of the day, these cars are depreciating assets. Better to drive than worry about it.
When the 997.2 GT3 was brand new weren't prices higher for it than for the outgoing 997.1 GT3 RS?

Originally Posted by brake dust View Post
Agree. Chris Harris made that exact comment in his review original review about the performance of the 997.2 GT3 over the 997.1 GT3RS. Look at the market today!

What I'm trying to understand is what is Porsche racing with these days in the 991GT3R and the RSR. What are the differences to the street GTs?
But look at the market when the 997.2 GT3 was brand new! That is the appropriate comparison to make, because:

The RS is old news, there are thousands of them out there

The next GT3 will be new news, so to speak

The hype machine of Chris Harris, Steve Sutcliffe, and so on will be focused on the new toy, of course

The hype machine will create desire for the new toy, and people will start becoming feverish with anticipation; just look at the effects of the AMG GT R hype machine on a Porsche forum!

Originally Posted by Waxer View Post
David: Disagree and here is why.

First and foremost "because RS". Its just that simple. I mean just look at it.

While the current RS has been made in numbers in excess over past generations there is are reasons why. Demand. The 991 RS generated demand like no other in the past. Demand still exceeds supply as guys still want them but can't get them at list and won't pay the current market of $25K or so to get one. This is going into '17 for a '16. Chris Harris nailed it when he reviewed the car early on that "the want is strong with this one".

The G engine has so far proved to be reliable. Each engine variation and generation has had its issues some serious like the IMS. While E & F engines of the 9A have had intermittent issues with valve train wear the vast majority of those engines seem to be doing fine. Unless they go to solid lifters its going to be the same engine basically with perhaps more oiling.

The .2 will likely be the 4.0. Changed my mind. Primarily because they want more power and best way and most reliable way is to increase displacement which also allow them to back down on the 9000 rpm red line which I think personally was a "little" too aggressive with not quite enough oiling at those levels under certain g load conditions at the outer cylinders. MHO.

However, the new 4.0 will be 10 or so hp less then the RS engine. Not a major difference but a "difference".

MT. Yes it will be quite a draw for some. However, even the polls on the choice between Mt and PDK here had it close to 50/50. Today, not everyone wants MT. More and more do not. Hard core Porschefiles maybe but some of them have even come around. The PDK/sequential takes the car to another level performance wise.

Faster. Nope. Not with MT. With PDK maybe close but wider track of RS and slightly better aero for the RS for the photo finish.

The cars that may get hurt in value are the R and older 997 GT3's. Not the older RS which is an RS and has a charm of its own. Why would I pay $500K for an R when I can buy a GT3 mt that is the same car?. If they offer a wing delete I'm doubling down on this.

The 991RS will still be substantially different than the new GT3.2. RS has carbon fenders, wider track front and rear, magnesium roof, larger wing, fender vents and scoops and again those two little letters "RS".

They will make as many .2 GT3 as .1 GT3. They are interested in MONEY. Especially since VW is steering the micro bus they are on now.

Also, there is a good chance that the 991RS may be the last NA RS. I mean seriously. Just look where performance cars are going. TT critical mass is building seriously. Just look at the AMG GT R supposedly posting better times at the ring then the 918 and P1. Its a $200K car. How does any performance car manufacturer expect to keep up by 2019/2020 with NA??? Tell me I'd love to know. There is no BOP in the public market and on the street or at DE.

One simple test. All those who be willing to trade there 991GT3RS for a new GT3 even up (thats the key) say "I" below.

I'll start.

Nay.
I think I elucidated my points with sufficient clarity above.

Originally Posted by fxz View Post
Cmon GT3 IS the Core product
RS is just a GT3 parts bin plus carbon plastic here n there

go figure i have an RS on order if any .2 released

but the next GT3 will 4 sure be much better than any past RS
whilst from GT3 to RS the increase is very little


collectionism thus higher residual value was due by lower RS produced than GT3

which doesn't look the same for 991.1RS

buy whatever you think fits better to you
without pretending this is absolurely the best
I know I'm in good company when we agree!
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:50 PM
  #555  
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Just gimme a 991.2 w 500 HP manual buckets rattly tooth shaking lwfw stiff *** clutch no rear steer 18" wheels and a big *** wing

Please Santa

Give me an excuse to stop enjoying my 997.

Gt4 didn't do it.
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