991 GT2RS
12-29-2017, 07:07 PM
#4516
12-29-2017, 10:10 PM
#4518
Rennlist Member
I'm not certain if the Southern California market mirrors the rest of the country.....but around here there are 2 types of dealers:
First type will comfortably tell you that their GT or limited cars will go to the highest bidder...they discuss the ADM with the customer at the time the vehicle is ordered, and if a relationship exists will make an adjustment on the ADM to reflect that relationship
Second type (huge minority) are those who will give the right of refusal of those cars at msrp to their best customers. Things sometimes get murky with this scenario because there are often fewer allocations for a car like the GT2RS than there are good customers. But if you are one of those "chosen ones" IMO it is highly unlikely that you are discussing this particular scenario on rennlist to draw attention and invite competition. Truth be told, if you did the math and calculated just what it takes to have been a "great customer" (how much you have lost on purchases with significant depreciation) paying an ADM may have actually been a much wiser decision.
Lots of things about this car make me want one....even though I know that as always, with Porsche, the next best thing is always just around the corner. I think this period in history rivals only the late 1960's when it comes to being a car guy. We are all really lucky to experience it.
First type will comfortably tell you that their GT or limited cars will go to the highest bidder...they discuss the ADM with the customer at the time the vehicle is ordered, and if a relationship exists will make an adjustment on the ADM to reflect that relationship
Second type (huge minority) are those who will give the right of refusal of those cars at msrp to their best customers. Things sometimes get murky with this scenario because there are often fewer allocations for a car like the GT2RS than there are good customers. But if you are one of those "chosen ones" IMO it is highly unlikely that you are discussing this particular scenario on rennlist to draw attention and invite competition. Truth be told, if you did the math and calculated just what it takes to have been a "great customer" (how much you have lost on purchases with significant depreciation) paying an ADM may have actually been a much wiser decision.
Lots of things about this car make me want one....even though I know that as always, with Porsche, the next best thing is always just around the corner. I think this period in history rivals only the late 1960's when it comes to being a car guy. We are all really lucky to experience it.
12-29-2017, 11:01 PM
#4519
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Since this is only a USA problem with dealers, perhaps PCNA can side step the law a little bit?
All buyers interested in a GT first contact PCNA to register their interest, and let PCNA know which dealers they would like to take their car from.
They then go to their dealer to place the order, the dealer have the option of tackling on market adjustment, but the buyer will also in turn report the final price to PCNA concerning their order. PCNA can then build a database on good dealers vs bad.
This way, PCNA doesn't control the price, but can also have a real gauge of demand, something that dealers are artificially obscuring from PCNA.
With such a little list, PCNA can also recommend good dealers to potential customers, something that must have happened, normal they jus say go to your local dealer, but if someone has a few 'local ones', they know which one to avoid.
With a master list at PCNA's hands, they can also redirect GT cars to appropriate dealers if someone can't sell one and others have a long back log.
Dealers also cannot do phantom sold orders anymore, as the customer themselves will be known to PCNA.
All buyers interested in a GT first contact PCNA to register their interest, and let PCNA know which dealers they would like to take their car from.
They then go to their dealer to place the order, the dealer have the option of tackling on market adjustment, but the buyer will also in turn report the final price to PCNA concerning their order. PCNA can then build a database on good dealers vs bad.
This way, PCNA doesn't control the price, but can also have a real gauge of demand, something that dealers are artificially obscuring from PCNA.
With such a little list, PCNA can also recommend good dealers to potential customers, something that must have happened, normal they jus say go to your local dealer, but if someone has a few 'local ones', they know which one to avoid.
With a master list at PCNA's hands, they can also redirect GT cars to appropriate dealers if someone can't sell one and others have a long back log.
Dealers also cannot do phantom sold orders anymore, as the customer themselves will be known to PCNA.
PAG (and by extension PCNA) already know which dealers are asking for an ADM, and which dealers are spec'ing hard-to-come-by GT cars with phantom customers (i.e., the dealer themselves).
While no one on the marketing side will say it, everyone who pushes the abacus disks at PAG encourage ADMs. It is a covert under-the-books way for PAG to provide for dealers incentives, trunk money, etc. without those cash outlays actually showing up on the books, and tarnishing their corporate numbers for the shareholders and the market.
One would have to believe in unicorns to think that PCNA / PAG do not already know which dealers are marking up cars, and which ones are not. And then to believe that PAG / PCNA would then actually do something to crack down on them would be like not only believing unicorns, but that unicorns can mate with minotaurs to give birth to the holy grail of mythical creatures, the "unitaurs".
12-29-2017, 11:18 PM
#4520
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
My 918 VIP's build is 6/2018, I see another in my system so far.
IPSE said- not a lot of people can truly afford 300k cars. I think it's much more complicated than that but if you are stretching for a 350k car you should not get it. Are there 1000 guys in USA that can plop 350 on a GT2RS? Totally. I mean- Bentley and Rolls and Lambo and McLaren and Ferrari sell tons (as a group) every year. The mob is hungry.
But this whole "sure thing" car gig is a ponzi scheme. Someone will take a bath by over extending for a 2nd/3rd/4th car.
IPSE said- not a lot of people can truly afford 300k cars. I think it's much more complicated than that but if you are stretching for a 350k car you should not get it. Are there 1000 guys in USA that can plop 350 on a GT2RS? Totally. I mean- Bentley and Rolls and Lambo and McLaren and Ferrari sell tons (as a group) every year. The mob is hungry.
But this whole "sure thing" car gig is a ponzi scheme. Someone will take a bath by over extending for a 2nd/3rd/4th car.
What I said was I wonder how many people would actually buy the GT2 RS. Serious buyers who actually want the car.
I agree with you that lots and lots of people can afford the car, but I don't think lots and lots of people actually want the car.
12-30-2017, 12:21 AM
#4521
Actually that's not what I said. Nor is that what I meant, and apologies if it came off that way.
What I said was I wonder how many people would actually buy the GT2 RS. Serious buyers who actually want the car.
I agree with you that lots and lots of people can afford the car, but I don't think lots and lots of people actually want the car.
What I said was I wonder how many people would actually buy the GT2 RS. Serious buyers who actually want the car.
I agree with you that lots and lots of people can afford the car, but I don't think lots and lots of people actually want the car.
12-30-2017, 12:38 AM
#4522
Actually that's not what I said. Nor is that what I meant, and apologies if it came off that way.
What I said was I wonder how many people would actually buy the GT2 RS. Serious buyers who actually want the car.
I agree with you that lots and lots of people can afford the car, but I don't think lots and lots of people actually want the car.
What I said was I wonder how many people would actually buy the GT2 RS. Serious buyers who actually want the car.
I agree with you that lots and lots of people can afford the car, but I don't think lots and lots of people actually want the car.
12-30-2017, 12:52 AM
#4523
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Good point IPSE, I want the car and can afford the car but I can't afford the car at $150K premium. I like to drive and track my cars so for $500K I can have 3 uninsured track cars monsters that would be significantly faster but then my Porsche addiction wouldn't be satisfied.
Even at MSRP, very few people are going to be willing to track a 300-350K car. Sure, some will, but that population is going be quite small.
12-30-2017, 12:58 AM
#4524
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
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^ ipse your original queswtion is very interesting in many level and almost need it's own thread.
as porscheflat6 said,... i paraphrase. many of the GTx cars today are so $ that ppl no longer drive them, let alone track. so you might even add to the question
who wants them
who can afford then
and what are they going to do with them
i dont see too many get driven much. maybe 40% of total made?
as porscheflat6 said,... i paraphrase. many of the GTx cars today are so $ that ppl no longer drive them, let alone track. so you might even add to the question
who wants them
who can afford then
and what are they going to do with them
i dont see too many get driven much. maybe 40% of total made?
12-30-2017, 01:10 AM
#4525
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
^ ipse your original queswtion is very interesting in many level and almost need it's own thread.
as porscheflat6 said,... i paraphrase. many of the GTx cars today are so $ that ppl no longer drive them, let alone track. so you might even add to the question
who wants them
who can afford then
and what are they going to do with them
i dont see too many get driven much. maybe 40% of total made?
as porscheflat6 said,... i paraphrase. many of the GTx cars today are so $ that ppl no longer drive them, let alone track. so you might even add to the question
who wants them
who can afford then
and what are they going to do with them
i dont see too many get driven much. maybe 40% of total made?
12-30-2017, 01:33 AM
#4526
Rennlist Member
^ ipse your original queswtion is very interesting in many level and almost need it's own thread.
as porscheflat6 said,... i paraphrase. many of the GTx cars today are so $ that ppl no longer drive them, let alone track. so you might even add to the question
who wants them
who can afford then
and what are they going to do with them
i dont see too many get driven much. maybe 40% of total made?
as porscheflat6 said,... i paraphrase. many of the GTx cars today are so $ that ppl no longer drive them, let alone track. so you might even add to the question
who wants them
who can afford then
and what are they going to do with them
i dont see too many get driven much. maybe 40% of total made?
Still pushing for them to give me back Euro delivery so I can take mine on a 918 Spyder Circle road trip through the French Alps this coming July, then it will get on my track Area 27 when it comes home
12-30-2017, 01:43 AM
#4527
Rennlist Member
Putting aside for a minute that the system described above would arguably, if not in fact, be illegal, it's also unnecessary.
PAG (and by extension PCNA) already know which dealers are asking for an ADM, and which dealers are spec'ing hard-to-come-by GT cars with phantom customers (i.e., the dealer themselves).
While no one on the marketing side will say it, everyone who pushes the abacus disks at PAG encourage ADMs. It is a covert under-the-books way for PAG to provide for dealers incentives, trunk money, etc. without those cash outlays actually showing up on the books, and tarnishing their corporate numbers for the shareholders and the market.
One would have to believe in unicorns to think that PCNA / PAG do not already know which dealers are marking up cars, and which ones are not. And then to believe that PAG / PCNA would then actually do something to crack down on them would be like not only believing unicorns, but that unicorns can mate with minotaurs to give birth to the holy grail of mythical creatures, the "unitaurs".
PAG (and by extension PCNA) already know which dealers are asking for an ADM, and which dealers are spec'ing hard-to-come-by GT cars with phantom customers (i.e., the dealer themselves).
While no one on the marketing side will say it, everyone who pushes the abacus disks at PAG encourage ADMs. It is a covert under-the-books way for PAG to provide for dealers incentives, trunk money, etc. without those cash outlays actually showing up on the books, and tarnishing their corporate numbers for the shareholders and the market.
One would have to believe in unicorns to think that PCNA / PAG do not already know which dealers are marking up cars, and which ones are not. And then to believe that PAG / PCNA would then actually do something to crack down on them would be like not only believing unicorns, but that unicorns can mate with minotaurs to give birth to the holy grail of mythical creatures, the "unitaurs".
And say if I live in Reno, my closest Porsche dealer might be in California than within Nevada, and say if I just won the jackpot and wanted to buy a Porsche and never seen a dealer before, I might email PCNA via the website and ask where I can buy a Porsche, they could point me to the closest or the in state one. Similar argument for them to point customers to 'good dealers'.
The argument for kickback doesn't make sense at all as the ADM problem is basically an American problem with you law. It's not happening in Canada nor anywhere else that I know of. Something is wrong with your law and you guys should write to your congressman and have them change the law.
12-30-2017, 02:23 AM
#4528
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
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certainly you, footsolder, and another gent "rich_france" (sp) would thrash theirs but you ppl are a dying breed, if u know what i mean.
12-30-2017, 02:26 AM
#4529
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
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Lifetime Rennlist
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i dont track mine as it has no track equipment in it and i normally have pure track cars. but it does get out often 129xx miles.
it was out two weeks ago on a drive in the rain.
12-30-2017, 03:50 AM
#4530
Rennlist Member
Nah, we are just the silent majority.
You would be surprised at how many that actually drive their 'limited' cars.
Even for the 911R, I believe I know off around 200 cars that has over 5000km on the clock.