Cost benefit?? 19" =$= 20"
02-22-2016, 06:32 PM
#33
Funny you ask... 
Allow me to direct you to the last post in this thread...
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...l#post13041421
Allow me to direct you to the last post in this thread...
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...l#post13041421
02-22-2016, 08:26 PM
#34
I also think the rotating moment of inertia goes up larger wheels and larger diameters and I think that has to be detrimental. I've seen tests of 15-17" tire and wheel combos in A-X context and seen the cars slow with the bigger wheel.
All things considered in a DE environment I am a fan of smaller wheels and tires. I've yet to see the skill level to take advantage of "second order contact patch effects".
All things considered in a DE environment I am a fan of smaller wheels and tires. I've yet to see the skill level to take advantage of "second order contact patch effects".
02-22-2016, 10:28 PM
#35
I also think the rotating moment of inertia goes up larger wheels and larger diameters and I think that has to be detrimental. I've seen tests of 15-17" tire and wheel combos in A-X context and seen the cars slow with the bigger wheel.
All things considered in a DE environment I am a fan of smaller wheels and tires. I've yet to see the skill level to take advantage of "second order contact patch effects".
All things considered in a DE environment I am a fan of smaller wheels and tires. I've yet to see the skill level to take advantage of "second order contact patch effects".
Definitely understand the concept you've offered up.
02-23-2016, 02:03 AM
#36
Rennlist Member
Basically not an enormous difference when tracking between 19s and 20s from what I've read here.
I know people were giving Phil a hard time about running 19in Hoosiers on his car as being new to tracking, but unless you are already a 10/10 driver, why not save $500 per set of tires?
Even if you are a 10/10 driver, why not save $500 per set of tires?
I know people were giving Phil a hard time about running 19in Hoosiers on his car as being new to tracking, but unless you are already a 10/10 driver, why not save $500 per set of tires?
Even if you are a 10/10 driver, why not save $500 per set of tires?
02-23-2016, 02:17 AM
#37
Basically not an enormous difference when tracking between 19s and 20s from what I've read here.
I know people were giving Phil a hard time about running 19in Hoosiers on his car as being new to tracking, but unless you are already a 10/10 driver, why not save $500 per set of tires?
Even if you are a 10/10 driver, why not save $500 per set of tires?
I know people were giving Phil a hard time about running 19in Hoosiers on his car as being new to tracking, but unless you are already a 10/10 driver, why not save $500 per set of tires?
Even if you are a 10/10 driver, why not save $500 per set of tires?
most of my questions are so that I can plan accordingly. Example- if I'm going to eventually want/need to run Hoosiers...well than that will influence my current decision on wheel size.
02-23-2016, 11:00 AM
#38
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Drifting
Basically not an enormous difference when tracking between 19s and 20s from what I've read here.
I know people were giving Phil a hard time about running 19in Hoosiers on his car as being new to tracking, but unless you are already a 10/10 driver, why not save $500 per set of tires?
Even if you are a 10/10 driver, why not save $500 per set of tires?
I know people were giving Phil a hard time about running 19in Hoosiers on his car as being new to tracking, but unless you are already a 10/10 driver, why not save $500 per set of tires?
Even if you are a 10/10 driver, why not save $500 per set of tires?
More tire choices of all types and sizes are coming down the pipeline. Prepping for the 'future' when you don't know what options are going to be available a few years from now doesn't make sense to me. OP is getting offended at this point (not unexpected), so I'll just step out.
02-23-2016, 12:11 PM
#39
Three Wheelin'
A couple of comments:
1) in order to learn how to drive fast, you have to learn how to manage the tire contact patch (however big it is and however much math may be required to measure it) at the limit of adhesion. This is a dynamic process that involves mostly steering angle and throttle (with a little braking later on).
2) less adhesive tires have more progressive adhesion limit characteristics because the lateral g's are less (in other words, it's a lot easier to learn how to drift in snow).
3) moving to sticky tires quickly (and before you can effectively drift both the front and/or the rear at the edge of adhesion with intent) will reduce lap times, but it will severely limit incremental learning because it's hard to learn in a really fast car with a lot of grip.
My recommendation (if you can take being passed more than you like) would be to buy cheaper super sports or some other less grippy tire. Tear up cheap, less grippy tires for a year while you learn. You'll be slower at the first 3 events and much, much faster two years from now (plus you'll save money and be much safer).
1) in order to learn how to drive fast, you have to learn how to manage the tire contact patch (however big it is and however much math may be required to measure it) at the limit of adhesion. This is a dynamic process that involves mostly steering angle and throttle (with a little braking later on).
2) less adhesive tires have more progressive adhesion limit characteristics because the lateral g's are less (in other words, it's a lot easier to learn how to drift in snow).
3) moving to sticky tires quickly (and before you can effectively drift both the front and/or the rear at the edge of adhesion with intent) will reduce lap times, but it will severely limit incremental learning because it's hard to learn in a really fast car with a lot of grip.
My recommendation (if you can take being passed more than you like) would be to buy cheaper super sports or some other less grippy tire. Tear up cheap, less grippy tires for a year while you learn. You'll be slower at the first 3 events and much, much faster two years from now (plus you'll save money and be much safer).
02-23-2016, 01:00 PM
#40
If a set of Hoosiers cost $1500 and last 3 days, but a set of cup2 cost $2000 and last 6 days you're not saving money. Grip costs money. No way around that.
More tire choices of all types and sizes are coming down the pipeline. Prepping for the 'future' when you don't know what options are going to be available a few years from now doesn't make sense to me. OP is getting offended at this point (not unexpected), so I'll just step out.
More tire choices of all types and sizes are coming down the pipeline. Prepping for the 'future' when you don't know what options are going to be available a few years from now doesn't make sense to me. OP is getting offended at this point (not unexpected), so I'll just step out.
However, the reason I am getting a little offended is my PERCEPTION is that I'm being judged and that's skewing the suggestions/recommendations.
Now, I could be wrong...and if so, my apologies.
As for attempting to plan when the future is uncertain...well, talk to ANY 'serious' business and you'll see that this is a necessary challenge to deal with.
02-23-2016, 01:43 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Phil,
You were wearing full race gloves (overnight nuts) in your home made exhaust video over your civvies lol! I hadn't seen that before ;-p
You also jump in with lots of questions rather than use search to better study and understand what's gone before.
Some of your questions are very green IMO. For someone that has stickers up their car real pretty , has had a straight pipe made and is talking about buying a trailer, slicks, 19" tyres and hasn't yet had a day at the track I guess the natural consensus from many on here with wiser heads if "whoa - slow down mate before you have a whoops you".
People are only trying to help because they feel you might be being a bit premature on some of this stuff. Buy you know you best so as long as you are enjoying the process and putting no one at harm I'm sure it will all work out on the day.
You were wearing full race gloves (overnight nuts) in your home made exhaust video over your civvies lol! I hadn't seen that before ;-p
You also jump in with lots of questions rather than use search to better study and understand what's gone before.
Some of your questions are very green IMO. For someone that has stickers up their car real pretty , has had a straight pipe made and is talking about buying a trailer, slicks, 19" tyres and hasn't yet had a day at the track I guess the natural consensus from many on here with wiser heads if "whoa - slow down mate before you have a whoops you".
People are only trying to help because they feel you might be being a bit premature on some of this stuff. Buy you know you best so as long as you are enjoying the process and putting no one at harm I'm sure it will all work out on the day.
02-23-2016, 02:08 PM
#42
A couple of comments:
1) in order to learn how to drive fast, you have to learn how to manage the tire contact patch (however big it is and however much math may be required to measure it) at the limit of adhesion. This is a dynamic process that involves mostly steering angle and throttle (with a little braking later on).
2) less adhesive tires have more progressive adhesion limit characteristics because the lateral g's are less (in other words, it's a lot easier to learn how to drift in snow).
3) moving to sticky tires quickly (and before you can effectively drift both the front and/or the rear at the edge of adhesion with intent) will reduce lap times, but it will severely limit incremental learning because it's hard to learn in a really fast car with a lot of grip.
My recommendation (if you can take being passed more than you like) would be to buy cheaper super sports or some other less grippy tire. Tear up cheap, less grippy tires for a year while you learn. You'll be slower at the first 3 events and much, much faster two years from now (plus you'll save money and be much safer).
1) in order to learn how to drive fast, you have to learn how to manage the tire contact patch (however big it is and however much math may be required to measure it) at the limit of adhesion. This is a dynamic process that involves mostly steering angle and throttle (with a little braking later on).
2) less adhesive tires have more progressive adhesion limit characteristics because the lateral g's are less (in other words, it's a lot easier to learn how to drift in snow).
3) moving to sticky tires quickly (and before you can effectively drift both the front and/or the rear at the edge of adhesion with intent) will reduce lap times, but it will severely limit incremental learning because it's hard to learn in a really fast car with a lot of grip.
My recommendation (if you can take being passed more than you like) would be to buy cheaper super sports or some other less grippy tire. Tear up cheap, less grippy tires for a year while you learn. You'll be slower at the first 3 events and much, much faster two years from now (plus you'll save money and be much safer).
Last edited by inactiveuser7616; 02-23-2016 at 03:28 PM.
02-23-2016, 03:23 PM
#43
Phil,
You were wearing full race gloves (overnight nuts) in your home made exhaust video over your civvies lol! I hadn't seen that before ;-p
You also jump in with lots of questions rather than use search to better study and understand what's gone before.
Some of your questions are very green IMO. For someone that has stickers up their car real pretty , has had a straight pipe made and is talking about buying a trailer, slicks, 19" tyres and hasn't yet had a day at the track I guess the natural consensus from many on here with wiser heads if "whoa - slow down mate before you have a whoops you".
People are only trying to help because they feel you might be being a bit premature on some of this stuff. Buy you know you best so as long as you are enjoying the process and putting no one at harm I'm sure it will all work out on the day.
You were wearing full race gloves (overnight nuts) in your home made exhaust video over your civvies lol! I hadn't seen that before ;-p
You also jump in with lots of questions rather than use search to better study and understand what's gone before.
Some of your questions are very green IMO. For someone that has stickers up their car real pretty , has had a straight pipe made and is talking about buying a trailer, slicks, 19" tyres and hasn't yet had a day at the track I guess the natural consensus from many on here with wiser heads if "whoa - slow down mate before you have a whoops you".
People are only trying to help because they feel you might be being a bit premature on some of this stuff. Buy you know you best so as long as you are enjoying the process and putting no one at harm I'm sure it will all work out on the day.
As for asking questions vs searching and reading. Well, i have been searching and reading for over a year on this forum. However, my style of learning/comprehension is better served via a dialogue that allows me to ask questions. Sorry about that. It's not like I'm posing simple black and white questions.
As for my questions being green. You bet they are! And I have NO shame in that either. I have made it very far in my career/business without a college degree because I am ok with admitting I don't know everything....and I ask what some may deem as 'dumb' questions. I have enough ego and confidence that I don't care what people think about me... When I'm simply wanting to ensure I understand at a foundational level.
Yes, I'm jumping in...head first! Ever think you may not know my personal situation??? Maybe I only have a year left to live...?? My point is you don't know me or my situation... and yet, my PERCEPTION is judgement. Even your comment about my 'stickered up' car screams of judgement. Sorry if I mis-read that... but that is my perception.
Last edited by inactiveuser7616; 02-23-2016 at 04:48 PM.
02-23-2016, 04:47 PM
#44
PT3, I wouldn't let the posts you often see on here bother you. Some people are just overly antagonistic and negative on forums for whatever reason - its pretty common these days on Rennlist.
In the grand scheme of things, I would go 19"s if it was me because of available tires today. If tomorrow it starts to rain 20"s in good numbers you can always make the decision to buy a new set of wheels or run your stock rims at the track and convert the 19"s for street use. The cost of doing this is a pretty small in an annual track budget if you're there regularly.
In the grand scheme of things, I would go 19"s if it was me because of available tires today. If tomorrow it starts to rain 20"s in good numbers you can always make the decision to buy a new set of wheels or run your stock rims at the track and convert the 19"s for street use. The cost of doing this is a pretty small in an annual track budget if you're there regularly.
02-23-2016, 04:50 PM
#45
PT3, I wouldn't let the posts you often see on here bother you. Some people are just overly antagonistic and negative on forums for whatever reason - its pretty common these days on Rennlist.
In the grand scheme of things, I would go 19"s if it was me because of available tires today. If tomorrow it starts to rain 20"s in good numbers you can always make the decision to buy a new set of wheels or run your stock rims at the track and convert the 19"s for street use. The cost of doing this is a pretty small in an annual track budget if you're there regularly.
In the grand scheme of things, I would go 19"s if it was me because of available tires today. If tomorrow it starts to rain 20"s in good numbers you can always make the decision to buy a new set of wheels or run your stock rims at the track and convert the 19"s for street use. The cost of doing this is a pretty small in an annual track budget if you're there regularly.