MotorTrend: Viper ACR versus C7 Z06 versus RS
01-08-2016, 11:25 AM
#61
Yup, has to hurt Porsche and its devotees for even the latest RS to get its clock cleaned by the ACR. But it is what it is, the numbers don't lie. Moreover, excellent drivers continue to praise how predictable and enjoyable the ACR is to drive on track, so the subjective part is there too. The GT3 already covers the need for a car which is good on both track and road (but I'll still argue too capable for the road), so IMO the RS should have been taken in a more extreme direction like the ACR with a true track focus. I have several Porsches, but the ACR has me drooling ...
01-08-2016, 11:27 AM
#62
I have owned at least one Viper continuously since 1993. My first street Porsche is my 991 GT3, and it's fantastic, but as a horsepower guy, it is pretty wimpy and only shines at 6K+, which is pretty hoony on the street. I'll say that I don't like the attention drawn by spirited acceleration on the street in the GT3, so that's a negative to me for street driving the car. But on track the GT3 punches hugely above its weight and is brilliant with no issues related to brakes, cooling or reliability.
In the current market, I can have my GT3 and ACR Extreme for less than an RS. And I will bet the RS plummets like a meteor in value if you track it; the folks paying $50-100K over sticker are going to want a pristine car. If you got your RS at MSRP, by all means track it, as it will hold that value, but that's not an option for a philistine like me, so the ACR is a no brainer. And on the street I bet you can short shift at 4000 rpm and run like a GT3 going to 8 or 9K and draw less aural attention.
I know CJ can drive, so his comments carry a lot of weight with me. I expect the ACR to be very special on track and while it may use up front tires, I destroyed my GT3 front Dunlops in about 6 track sessions, and GT3 shoes (stupid ^$%&^$% 20") are way more expensive than the Kumho 19" on the ACR, and don't even get me started on the 21" of the RS.
So, let's see: ACR costs less to buy and operate than a GT3 and can run on par with a 918 on track. And has the engaging manual transmission to boot. It's the last of the old-school performance cars and to me a landmark car that is the end of an era.
Oh, and folks the ACR lead time if you order is 4 months, so you better start thinking about getting off that fence if you want one. I predict that when orders end, existing inventory will dry up and prices rise.
In the current market, I can have my GT3 and ACR Extreme for less than an RS. And I will bet the RS plummets like a meteor in value if you track it; the folks paying $50-100K over sticker are going to want a pristine car. If you got your RS at MSRP, by all means track it, as it will hold that value, but that's not an option for a philistine like me, so the ACR is a no brainer. And on the street I bet you can short shift at 4000 rpm and run like a GT3 going to 8 or 9K and draw less aural attention.
I know CJ can drive, so his comments carry a lot of weight with me. I expect the ACR to be very special on track and while it may use up front tires, I destroyed my GT3 front Dunlops in about 6 track sessions, and GT3 shoes (stupid ^$%&^$% 20") are way more expensive than the Kumho 19" on the ACR, and don't even get me started on the 21" of the RS.
So, let's see: ACR costs less to buy and operate than a GT3 and can run on par with a 918 on track. And has the engaging manual transmission to boot. It's the last of the old-school performance cars and to me a landmark car that is the end of an era.
Oh, and folks the ACR lead time if you order is 4 months, so you better start thinking about getting off that fence if you want one. I predict that when orders end, existing inventory will dry up and prices rise.
01-08-2016, 01:42 PM
#63
Race Director
Yup, has to hurt Porsche and its devotees for even the latest RS to get its clock cleaned by the ACR. But it is what it is, the numbers don't lie. Moreover, excellent drivers continue to praise how predictable and enjoyable the ACR is to drive on track, so the subjective part is there too.
The GT3 already covers the need for a car which is good on both track and road (but I'll still argue too capable for the road), so IMO the RS should have been taken in a more extreme direction like the ACR with a true track focus.
I have several Porsches, but the ACR has me drooling ...
The GT3 already covers the need for a car which is good on both track and road (but I'll still argue too capable for the road), so IMO the RS should have been taken in a more extreme direction like the ACR with a true track focus.
I have several Porsches, but the ACR has me drooling ...
01-08-2016, 02:14 PM
#64
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Seems that the delta between the ACR and RS is at least as much due to grip and handling as power. If ACR tires have more grip than the Cup 2, getting those tires on the Porsche GT cars may be step 1. But there's still the massive aero of the ACR to consider.
01-08-2016, 02:19 PM
#65
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I'd rather have Mr. Purple too (or a GT3), over either of the other two cars. The ACR is fast as hell on track, but it's a one trick pony; by all indications it's unlivable on the street. The Z06 is better in that respect but apparently has one tiny flaw; at the limit it tries to kill you.
The RS and GT3 are all-rounders that do everything well, on both the street and the track, with basically no vices except their price. In the end it comes down to what aspects of overall performance you value the most and what you are willing to give up to get something else.
I disagree that Porsche have changed their philosophy. It's pretty much the same as it's always been; build a car that you can use on track while also enjoying the drive to and from. Manufacturers like Dodge with the ACR have focused on the first part while making little attempt to deal with the second. No wonder the ACR is fast on track; that's it's one and only purpose. If Porsche were as single minded they could build a car to match or surpass it, but they've chosen another path that is consistent with their historical DNA of producing more versatile cars.
The RS and GT3 are all-rounders that do everything well, on both the street and the track, with basically no vices except their price. In the end it comes down to what aspects of overall performance you value the most and what you are willing to give up to get something else.
I disagree that Porsche have changed their philosophy. It's pretty much the same as it's always been; build a car that you can use on track while also enjoying the drive to and from. Manufacturers like Dodge with the ACR have focused on the first part while making little attempt to deal with the second. No wonder the ACR is fast on track; that's it's one and only purpose. If Porsche were as single minded they could build a car to match or surpass it, but they've chosen another path that is consistent with their historical DNA of producing more versatile cars.
01-08-2016, 03:15 PM
#66
Race Director
Earlier I wrote that the ACR was a one trick pony and that probably came across as too negative. It's definitely a very impressive trick and if that trick is what you're looking for the ACR may be the perfect car. My point was that Porsche has never built one trick cars for the street (not even the RS models) and probably never will. I think that's a conscious decision and part of Porsche's general long standing philosophy. Now that other manufacturers are willing to build all out track cars that fall short in other areas (for most people) it will be difficult for Porsche to match their track performance.
That's OK for some and bad for others. Pay your money and take your choice.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 01-08-2016 at 03:43 PM.
01-08-2016, 03:46 PM
#67
I'm curious what makes the acr a 1 trick pony but not the RS?
I love both cars. But just curious about the above opinion.
Both have big wings and look quite ridiculous on the road to some...
I daily drive a Viper TA it's my only car. I agree the cabin is cramped for big guys. I'm 5'9 180lbs. Fine for me though. I have the DSC suspension and haven't driven it on the stock suspension but hear the ACR rides better than the TA (stock). With the DSC I'm just fine.
So I'd say besides the tighter cabin and side exhaust I'm not sure what would seperate the ACR and RS
I love both cars. But just curious about the above opinion.
Both have big wings and look quite ridiculous on the road to some...
I daily drive a Viper TA it's my only car. I agree the cabin is cramped for big guys. I'm 5'9 180lbs. Fine for me though. I have the DSC suspension and haven't driven it on the stock suspension but hear the ACR rides better than the TA (stock). With the DSC I'm just fine.
So I'd say besides the tighter cabin and side exhaust I'm not sure what would seperate the ACR and RS
01-08-2016, 03:49 PM
#68
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I would never quote those two guys as "hard core". Actually, far from it. I will say this though, I was stunned that my new ACR rides nicer on the street than my 2013 Gen5 GTS did. It is louder because of less sound deadening, but nowhere near as much as I expected by these "hard core" guys reports. To be completely fair though, the 991 GT3 is only marginally better on the street as it is the loudest and roughest in the 991 lineup today. I guess I just assumed folks bought the GT3 and RS for the track (or as investments...). Kind of like the Z06 guys who once stated it as an amazing track car, but now like to point out now how it is nice on the street as a DD. The ACR is not a DD but I do think OK on the street. For more enjoyment on the street, I would honestly have a 991 2S/4S/Targa S/Turbo S instead, but for my track days, the ACR.
I drove a friend's more "normal" Viper a few years ago; it wasn't for me. As for the ACR, whether a car is "livable" or not is purely subjective. I'm just going by what the two fairly hard core car guys in the video had to say about it, and they went on and on about how the car hammered them in street driving, nearly made them deaf, had a poor driving position, etc. etc. That doesn't sound like something that would "livable" to me, but you're obviously entitled to your own opinion about what's "livable".
Earlier I wrote that the ACR was a one trick pony and that probably came across as too negative. It's definitely a very impressive trick and if that trick is what you're looking for the ACR may be the perfect car. My point was that Porsche has never built one trick cars for the street and probably never will. I think that's a conscious decision and now that other manufacturers are willing to build all out track cars that fall short in other areas (for most people) it will be difficult for Porsche to match their track performance.
That's OK for some and bad for others. Pay your money and take your choice.
Earlier I wrote that the ACR was a one trick pony and that probably came across as too negative. It's definitely a very impressive trick and if that trick is what you're looking for the ACR may be the perfect car. My point was that Porsche has never built one trick cars for the street and probably never will. I think that's a conscious decision and now that other manufacturers are willing to build all out track cars that fall short in other areas (for most people) it will be difficult for Porsche to match their track performance.
That's OK for some and bad for others. Pay your money and take your choice.
01-08-2016, 04:14 PM
#69
Race Director
I'm curious what makes the acr a 1 trick pony but not the RS?
I love both cars. But just curious about the above opinion.
Both have big wings and look quite ridiculous on the road to some...
I daily drive a Viper TA it's my only car. I agree the cabin is cramped for big guys. I'm 5'9 180lbs. Fine for me though. I have the DSC suspension and haven't driven it on the stock suspension but hear the ACR rides better than the TA (stock). With the DSC I'm just fine.
So I'd say besides the tighter cabin and side exhaust I'm not sure what would seperate the ACR and RS
I love both cars. But just curious about the above opinion.
Both have big wings and look quite ridiculous on the road to some...
I daily drive a Viper TA it's my only car. I agree the cabin is cramped for big guys. I'm 5'9 180lbs. Fine for me though. I have the DSC suspension and haven't driven it on the stock suspension but hear the ACR rides better than the TA (stock). With the DSC I'm just fine.
So I'd say besides the tighter cabin and side exhaust I'm not sure what would seperate the ACR and RS
I would never quote those two guys as "hard core". Actually, far from it. I will say this though, I was stunned that my new ACR rides nicer on the street than my 2013 Gen5 GTS did. It is louder because of less sound deadening, but nowhere near as much as I expected by these "hard core" guys reports. To be completely fair though, the 991 GT3 is only marginally better on the street as it is the loudest and roughest in the 991 lineup today. I guess I just assumed folks bought the GT3 and RS for the track (or as investments...). Kind of like the Z06 guys who once stated it as an amazing track car, but now like to point out now how it is nice on the street as a DD. The ACR is not a DD but I do think OK on the street. For more enjoyment on the street, I would honestly have a 991 2S/4S/Targa S/Turbo S instead, but for my track days, the ACR.
That said, I just watched the video again from the 17 minute mark and heard the ACR described as, among other things, a "torture device". You may disagree with that characterization, and I'm not in a position to argue with you based on my lack of personal experience with the car. But FWIW, I've never heard any reviewer (or owner) anywhere describe the GT3 or RS as a "torture device" and my experience with my own GT3 would lead me to believe that no reasonable car person would ever use that term to describe it.
From what I've seen, what separates the ACR and RS is that the ACR is an awesome track day weapon which for the large majority of people, is very compromised as a street car. In my mind, that makes it a one trick pony. The RS, on the other hand, is an excellent if not quite ultimate track car that can be reasonably driven on a daily basis with a fair degree of comfort, big wing notwithstanding. That, in my mind, makes it more of an all-rounder than the ACR.
It's possible that after actually driving an ACR I would change my mind, but the evidence so far suggests otherwise. Just my $.02.
01-08-2016, 04:36 PM
#71
It's hilarious. It's the first time I have ever heard any street car being described as torturous and miserable and one that is liked by those who like to torture others. And 8.4 litres when most of the world is heading towards 4.0 and under. It sounds like a cross between an exotic car and garbage truck. Absolutely fell out of my seat laughing. It sounds "terrible" and "is all about pain." Please show me another review like it.
The corvette review was unbelievable too. Just switch the systems off and you will crash. The power is more than the car can handle.
The corvette review was unbelievable too. Just switch the systems off and you will crash. The power is more than the car can handle.
01-08-2016, 04:45 PM
#72
First off, I admit, I haven't driven or ridden in an ACR. Also, I won't get into an argument about whether the reviewers are sufficiently "hard core" or not, however they do seem like the have some experience with performance cars. That said, I just watched the video again from the 17 minute mark and heard the ACR described as, among other things, a "torture device". You may disagree with that characterization, and I'm not in a position to argue with you based on my lack of personal experience with the car. But FWIW, I've never heard any reviewer (or owner) anywhere describe the GT3 or RS as a "torture device" and my experience with my own GT3 would lead me to believe that no reasonable car person would ever use that term to describe it. From what I've seen, what separates the ACR and RS is that the ACR is an awesome track day weapon which for the large majority of people, is very compromised as a street car. In my mind, that makes it a one trick pony. The RS, on the other hand, is an excellent if not quite ultimate track car that can be reasonably driven on a daily basis with a fair degree of comfort, big wing notwithstanding. That, in my mind, makes it more of an all-rounder than the ACR. It's possible that after actually driving an ACR I would change my mind, but the evidence so far suggests otherwise. Just my $.02.
I would buy a 991rs yesterday if it was like the Viper but in a Porsche body and with a Stuttgart badge. Because it would be more like a 993cs/964ngt/996rs. Not great on the road but really shines on track.
Porsche has got it right. Demand on RS is a lot higher than before. If they will make the "cup edition"? I'll be hanging on the door ready to write the check and spec my car. Sorry, but I could care less about PTS or what stitching they put in the seats.
01-08-2016, 04:46 PM
#73
Race Director
^ I would be pulled over too many times in the ACR. Already 4 times in my GT3 but lucky no tickets. And I was not driving like an idiot. Like I told the officers; it just sound faster than I was actually traveling. One guy pulled me over just to tell me what a great looking car it was and then told me to take it easy. Did not help that my Wife had a little too much champagne and would not stop leaning over me to talk to the guy
01-08-2016, 04:48 PM
#74
It's hilarious. It's the first time I have ever heard any street car being described as torturous and miserable and one that is liked by those who like to torture others. And 8.4 litres when most of the world is heading towards 4.0 and under. It sounds like a cross between an exotic car and garbage truck. Absolutely fell out of my seat laughing. It sounds "terrible" and "is all about pain." Please show me another review like it. The corvette review was unbelievable too. Just switch the systems off and you will crash. The power is more than the car can handle.
I listen a lot more to the owner reviews on this board than journalists trying to get hits on YouTube.
01-08-2016, 05:02 PM
#75
I HOPE it's a torture device. When I first started driving WE LIKED IT THAT WAY! I want to relive my foolish youth and everything you have to suffer through becomes more worthwhile when remembered. I don' t need no mamby-pamby cupholders or insulation!
Speaking of, I hate that damn cupholder symbol on my carbon fiber trim. I know where they are and can inform the ignorant. I don't need a cup-shaped zit on the stuff I paid $$$ for.
Back to regularly-scheduled programming.
Speaking of, I hate that damn cupholder symbol on my carbon fiber trim. I know where they are and can inform the ignorant. I don't need a cup-shaped zit on the stuff I paid $$$ for.
Back to regularly-scheduled programming.