chillindrdude

i am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but...

i (we) don't know what culling/risk reduction Summit has undertaken to address the deer issue.

although, i surmise whatever it is, it is still insufficient as, they always stress that caution at driver's meeting.

i think municipalities, in general, need to be receptive and encourage hunting/culling of overpopulated deer.

so...is that GT3 totaled?

sccchiii

My point was no sense on even trying to use roadway info at all while trying to add the variances with track conditions.

Yes I should have been more clear Deer don't "stroll" onto track, that was my way of saying "sprinting" onto track

tgil

Summit Point in the Fall is scary place. 2 years ago several cars hit deer driving to and from hotel to track in the early am. Saw several Corvettes and 1 new Cayman have huge deer impacts on track.
Also, large groundhogs run across track frequently.
Great tracks and facilities, and spectator viewing areas, but need appropriate fencing, etc. to protect the racers.

NateOZ

It is 100% a random event, to me it is the definition of a random wallk.

My local track is in the middle of the Catskill mountains so has a perimeter fence and debris fence on the track itself. I've hit a bird and a small turtle, almost a ground hog. But nothing big makes it in - bear and deer are there in high numbers.

The Marshalls do a great job showing debris flags when there is road kill on the track, or a small piece of someone's car.

Manifold

IMO, that's going too far. While we don't know how the injury and fatality rate per hit will change for road vs track speeds, I think the roadway data still has some relevance, because in both cases we're talking about cars hitting deer, and there's reason to believe that the ratio of injuries to fatalities would also be similar on road vs track (about 70:1).

So, for example, assume that the roadway fatality rate is about 1/10,000 per hit. It's likely also conservative to assume that the fatality rate is 1000x higher on track because of the higher average speed, so say the track fatality rate is 1/10 per hit. Given that there were no significant injuries in about 6 hits I know of on track, that suggests an injury rate below 1/6, and a fatality rate below 1/420, so that confirms that the 1/10 fatality rate is likely conservatively very high, but let's go with it. If the chance of hitting a deer is about 7% in 100 days at SP, the chance of fatality in that many days would be below 0.7%, probably far below that (the 1/420 rate would give 0.02%, or 1/5000). But, again, the chance of injury is much higher in a hit, and the chance of substantial damage to the car is closer to 100%.

There's a lot of estimating here, but it gives us an idea, and IMO these estimates are a better guide for making decisions than gut feelings shaped by anecdotes and emotions.

Manifold

You make a good point about the seasonality, and the risk therefore not being the same throughout the year.

chillindrdude

i am obviously biased, since SPR is my "home" track, where i first go into this HPDE addiction.

short of calling it unsafe, when you look at VIR, the run off is clearly far less at SPR.

any venturing off track = wall contact at SPR.

997rs4.0

Very hard to compare street with track! In Northern Europe people get hurt after hitting tall legged heavy animals like mouse from impact. Chopping legs off and body folds into the car.
Very little risk of getting hurt if you "just run over" deer or 400 pound wild boar. Yes. They are that big. Car taking the hit just like in the video. Airbag is a big risk in collisions that doesn't slow down your vehicle.
Have a lot of experience of tracking wounded animals after impacts with vehicles. That job falls on the landowner in Sweden. And I must say even if it involves a lot of night work it's very rewarding to find and make sure animals don't suffer.
Seen many drivers suffer avoidable injuries if they would have gotten more high speed training and how to react in these situations.

If I would be a regular at Summit I would definitely ask for fence at those fast sections. You can actually "teach" the deer to use different trails.

And secondly I wouldn't want an airbag go off in my car at full speed without slowing the car down.

Manifold

When I was safety chair for large PCA region which has SPR as the home track, the incident rate was generally not higher at SPR vs other tracks. That's likely in part due to the region knowing the track well, but it certainly happens that people go off at SPR without hitting anything, and when comparing with VIR, there are actually plenty of walls at VIR which aren't in the normal line of sight, so people don't see them until they're heading for them (eg, left of south bend). It's the same situation at many other tracks, such as Thunderbolt and Lightning, which look nice and open, but I've seen some hard hits against the walls there. To better get to know the runoff areas at tracks, I suggest studying Google satellite imagery (assuming it's up to date).

jlanka

Speaking of which, does anyone know how to get to the bleachers near turn 5? I walked back on the path that starts just beyond the gate toward turn 3, but it went way back into the woods and never seemed to have a cut that leads to the those bleachers. I wanted to sit there and watch some of the action in the back part of the track

Jeff

Manifold

I agree with the general point, which is why I was trying to be clear about similarities and differences when comparing road vs track. As I said at the outset, on average, the impact energy will be massively higher on track vs road. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the absolute risk of injury or fatality on track is 'very' high, and I think both the experiences from the track and calcs support that conclusion. I know of numerous cases of people hitting deer at SP, but I haven't heard of any significant injuries in those cases. But again, I consider the deer risk at SP to be unacceptable, and I believe the risk needs to be reduced.

Also agree that the size/type of animal makes a difference. At SP, the main concern is deer (though groundhogs can also do damage), so the comparison with the road also needs to be looking at deer.

NateOZ

This to me is the scariest part, going 110+ mph with no vision or hands on the wheel. Especially if being able to see and control the car is the difference between hitting a tire wall, concrete wall or taking advantage of more run off.

And some data on Jefferson County where SP is - about 3 deer hits per 100 registered vehicles per year.

Manifold

Good point regarding no vision. In this incident, there was zero visibility through the windshield while he was going 140 mph. Scary for sure.

Thanks for that data. As I mentioned, I actually hit a deer on track at SP last year, but it's also the case that I've had more close encounters with deer going to/from the track than on track. Though I'd still rather hit a deer at 50 mph than 100+ mph, so I consider the track situation to be higher risk overall.

needmoregarage

Many excellent points in this thread.

Comment & question:

- Regarding avoidable injuries and high speed training:

I've taught hundreds of hours in car control training to corporate, teen and DE drivers. Even after an 8 hour class on track, where students receive several repeated practice drills to learn a skill - at the conclusion of the day we remind/warn them that while they've learned skills and likely stretched their abilities as a result of the class - unless they have a chance to practice and master the skills they will not develop muscle memory.

In a high stress moment (like a deer darting in front of you at 140 mph on track - or driving down an interstate at "speed") you are likely to revert to a "default" behavior which is the thing that you're likely to do when fear takes over. Many people - despite car control training - will panic / swerve or do any number of things that training taught them not to do. Unless one gets to practice embedding a new skill it's not likely to make a difference. There is a chance you'll do better than with zero training, but as they say: Practice Makes Perfect.

We have corporate clients who require their folks to repeat the training annually or every two years. Even that type of repetition is not enough to develop reliable muscle memory in an emergency.

I also have many hundreds of hours teaching teens to drive. I tell them they are better to hit the deer rather than swerve and hit another car or object like tree/pole.

I can say the words but until they experience it - my words have little impact (other than planting the seed). It's difficult to practice any car control training other than on a closed circuit.

I also spent 7 years in corporate training/development and people can sit through lots of training but until they are required or motivated to do something new on a frequent (at least weekly) basis - the old habits are difficult to break.

Question:
Would choosing an early spring or mid-summer event at SP reduce chances of encountering deer on the track? I was there mid-Oct and didn't see any but was well aware of the risk.

devenh

I'm not a lawyer, so this is just speculation, but I would think that track operators would have to make reasonable efforts to make the track safe. Given the likelihood of a serious deer related injury and the relatively low cost of a fence, perhaps a compelling case could be made to a jury that failing to erect a fence (or to take other effective measures) would be negligent. And once deemed negligent, doesn't that invalidate the waiver?