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** The "market adjustment" issue **

 
Old 09-09-2015, 02:44 AM
  #16  
Zero911
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I don't fault the dealers for asking over MSRP. I am sure if we were selling our cars and some idiot wanted to pay $50k above asking we would jump on it.

What I do fault dealers for is if I am on a wait list and was told MSRP only to have that change when the car comes in. That's a waste of my time and a very ****ty thing to do.
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Old 09-09-2015, 08:04 AM
  #17  
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I was having a chat to the owner of my dealership about this whole issue last week. He said whenever they tried it in the past, it ultimately cost them money and the customer. They've had much better results focusing on selling the limited run cars to loyal/repeat customers.

I'm not even sure they maintain lists/deposits anymore as I'm not required to post one, but it's good to see some dealers get it still. The local market is hyper competitive as I've got probably 6 or 7 dealers within a 20 mile radius so these are what count. I've not purchased a Porsche elsewhere for years and even when I found something I wanted at another local dealership I had them get it for me.
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Old 09-09-2015, 08:18 AM
  #18  
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I blame Porsche, not the dealers. Many on here talk about capitalism, supply/demand, etc. But the extreme of this is only 3 cartons of organic milk on the shelf, so the grocery store raises the prices real time in the store and whoever pays the highest wins. Nothing wrong with an auction type economy/market, but Porsche should enforce things one way or the other with its licensed dealerships. Either have all new GT cars be sold at dealer determined prices, or at MSRP.

I spoke with an exec at PCNA last week that said "we discourage and frown on it, but as you know some of these are independent dealers and we cannot control etc. ,etc.". With all due respect I feel that is a bit of a cop-out. Raise the MSRP prices on your limited models to be closer with the market, and then require the dealer to sell at MSRP. Allows more $ profit for Porsche, for the dealer, and allows the customer a level of predictability in purchase price for the car. Porsche can still limit the number produced to create the halo effect. And yes there will still be flippers, maybe even more under this scenario. But the current situation with dealers is just plain silly, and Porsche is allowing all the market correction profit to go to dealers and private flippers, they aren't seeing it at corporate. Not smart. I had one dealer offer me a "pre determined" trade-in amount for my (somewhat) unique 16 lava orange gt3. It hasn't even been built yet. This dealer wanted to literally draw up papers on the trade-in now, describing max mileage, trade in value, etc. towards an RS. They still wanted a premium on RS, but much less because they would profit on the spread of my trade-in at MSRP, etc. I mean, come on. Porsche needs better standards/expectations for its dealers. If not, they are going to act in their best interest in a very transactional way. Not good for the brand long term. I have read through several posts by high rollers on this forum that have moved to McLaren, Ferrari, Lambo, etc. because they got tired of playing the waiting and dealer eBay auction games on new Porsche gt cars.

(by the way, said dealer is NOT the one I have/am purchasing GT cars from)
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:06 AM
  #19  
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I don't have an issue with a dealer doing the same as consumers are doing---asking a premium for a hot item. I sold my RS 3.8 for a huge profit and, unlike a Porsche dealer, I am not running a for-profit enterprise. After all, that is what the "S" in MSRP stands for. We all want a discount off MSRP.....

What I DO have a problem with is not being honest & upfront; the Isringhausen thread for example.
Would be fine with me if they posted "we have an allocation that, instead of going to one of our loyal customers on the waiting list, we are offering on auction to highest bidder over MSRP". Instead they are doing this silly "what do you think of our spec?" crap. At least PNH was upfront saying they had 4 Cayman GT4's they chose to sell for $10k over MSRP.

I am a capitalist and believe in the market; if a seller--private individual or dealer--can sell a hot commodity car for over MSRP, good for them the market will decide if it is the right price. Just don't lie to me...

Bill
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:34 AM
  #20  
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MSRP. Manufacturers SUGGESTED retail price.


It used to bother me until I started thinking... Why should the dealer not sell the car, in a free market, at the maximum it can obtain, If their objective is short-term profit maximization.

While some dealers take the long view and charge MSRP, others take a view of maximizing their profit in the short-term by selling the car at a premium. I don't fault either approach.
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:35 AM
  #21  
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Sounds like more of a relationship issue than anything.
If your dealer told you one thing, and then did another, there's a problem at the core...
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:48 AM
  #22  
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I have a GT3 RS coming in late November/early December. I am probably going to flip it to get GT4 instead. What do you think the market adjustment will be Christmas time? I can sell the allocation/contract to a cash buyer now or take my chances when car arrives. So if someone wants a 991 GT3 RS and willing to pay premium they can contact me. I am ok with dealerships trying to get the most they can for special cars unless they already agreed to msrp or a discount when getting in line for one.
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:13 AM
  #23  
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A) dealers can ask what they want, it's simple, decide if you want from chosen dealer or go elsewhere
B) manufacturer CANT dictate ultimate transaction price that dealer sells for ( at least in U.S.) ...its clearly written into many franchise state laws
C) this will be a topic that never goes away
D) discussing it won't change it
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:39 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by sccchiii View Post
A) dealers can ask what they want, it's simple, decide if you want from chosen dealer or go elsewhere
B) manufacturer CANT dictate ultimate transaction price that dealer sells for ( at least in U.S.) ...its clearly written into many franchise state laws
C) this will be a topic that never goes away
D) discussing it won't change it
Disagree. First, I don't know why anyone defends the dealers. It hurts Porsche and loses them long term customers.

This will absolutely change in the future. Just like any entrenched institution only being held together by government regulation against the competition, in the coming years we will see a shift to direct to consumer sales. No more markups. No more lists. No more negotiating. It will be a first come first serve model, and it will be wonderful. I don't see Tesla, Amazon or even Apple marking up products in high demand.

Talking about it does help. The more people talk about it, the more force we, all of us, have behind getting the stupid laws removed.
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:48 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by MayorAdamWest View Post
Disagree. First, I don't know why anyone defends the dealers. It hurts Porsche and loses them long term customers.

This will absolutely change in the future. Just like any entrenched institution only being held together by government regulation against the competition, in the coming years we will see a shift to direct to consumer sales. No more markups. No more lists. No more negotiating. It will be a first come first serve model, and it will be wonderful. I don't see Tesla, Amazon or even Apple marking up products in high demand.

Talking about it does help. The more people talk about it, the more force we, all of us, have behind getting the stupid laws removed.
this +1

And a manufacturer can absolutely decide the terms of their franchise/brand licensing with dealers, including requirements on pricing. Their recourse, ultimately is to pull dealer licenses. They aren't going to do that because the dealers are their customers (really). However, my point is that PAG/PCNA isn't being smart right now because their GT cars are obviously under priced and their supply is obviously too low. They could charge more, produce more, and still have a few people waiting/wanting to maintain the halo effect. Then everyone wins. PAG/PCNA see more profit, dealers still get their cut, customers still have to pay higher prices. But most that want a car get one, and it just gets rid of all the ebay auction shaningans that are happening at the dealers right now.
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Old 09-09-2015, 12:16 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by MayorAdamWest View Post
Disagree. First, I don't know why anyone defends the dealers. It hurts Porsche and loses them long term customers.

This will absolutely change in the future. Just like any entrenched institution only being held together by government regulation against the competition, in the coming years we will see a shift to direct to consumer sales. No more markups. No more lists. No more negotiating. It will be a first come first serve model, and it will be wonderful. I don't see Tesla, Amazon or even Apple marking up products in high demand.

Talking about it does help. The more people talk about it, the more force we, all of us, have behind getting the stupid laws removed.
I'm not defending dealers but this has been discussed on and off for decades. Franchise laws are very hard to change and are unlikely to change much despite the "tesla" model. Tesla still hasn't been ok'd in all 50 states and they only sell 1 model now. It remains to be seen what happens when Tesla models stop selling with big demand? Will tesla discount inventory that stops selling to create a sale? What will happen when they grow to a product line of 10 models and they get hundreds of thousands of trade ins? Who's going to sell all the used teslas that come back through the factory as trade ins and what will it do to demand on new units? Will the service network currently in place be able to keep up with growth? It's a model that works now but is far from tested when a full range model lineup starts to be produced.

The only way to solve this over msrp issue is to have the manufacturers take over all the selling/servicing and get rid of franchised dealerships. Auto manufacturers have experimented in past on taking over the dealerships and failed miserably. Also, do you think prices will change much? Maybe they do but my suspicion is that manufacturer greed will take over and you won't see much of a price drop when you go for a scheduled service despite the middleman disappearing. Yes, you will probably eliminate the trend of SOME dealers selling above msrp but my gosh it's such a microscopic percentage of total sales in country?? Competition amongst dealerships creates a better environment and better car deals overall (except on a few limited models). I know I for one have certainly taken advantage of pricing on models that weren't flying of the lots before.

Last edited by sccchiii; 09-09-2015 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 09-09-2015, 12:29 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by mrsullivan View Post
this +1

And a manufacturer can absolutely decide the terms of their franchise/brand licensing with dealers, including requirements on pricing. Their recourse, ultimately is to pull dealer licenses. They aren't going to do that because the dealers are their customers (really)
You should study up on the different franchise laws or a summary at least in the different states..Manufacturers can dictate marketing pricing rules (how the franchisee prices cars in advertising) but NOT ultimate transaction pricing. By definition it would be considered "price fixing".
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Old 09-09-2015, 12:47 PM
  #28  
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Default ** The "market adjustment" issue **

Franchise laws do limit on what Porsche can dictate.

Questions

1. If Porsche was really that disturbed by the mark ups, couldn't they just withhold future GT allocations to those dealers?

2. Does anyone think that Porsche isn't using these GT allocations in their favor to get dealers to take other stock or cars they're looking to move in exchange for them?

3. There's only one solution to all these differing opinions on this whole issue. Make more cars correct? It may be hard to believe, but Porsche is making $$$ on these cars.

Making more cars makes them lose their leverage and marketing spin. The GT cars are the carrots used to dangle above the dealers heads.
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Old 09-09-2015, 01:00 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by STG991 View Post
Franchise laws do limit on what Porsche can dictate.

Questions

1. If Porsche was really that disturbed by the mark ups, couldn't they just withhold future GT allocations to those dealers?

2. Does anyone think that Porsche isn't using these GT allocations in their favor to get dealers to take other stock or cars they're looking to move in exchange for them?

3. There's only one solution to all these differing opinions on this whole issue. Make more cars correct? It may be hard to believe, but Porsche is making $$$ on these cars.

Making more cars makes them lose their leverage and marketing spin. The GT cars are the carrots used to dangle above the dealers heads.
They are making more cars. They are making more of the cars that have the highest demand. We GT lovers are but a puny percentage of their sales. There biggest sales are in SUV's and regular 911's, not GT cars. Which would you make knowing that? THere production model will always focus on the highest volume which is why they are the most profitable car company out there.
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Old 09-09-2015, 01:12 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Zero911 View Post
I don't fault the dealers for asking over MSRP. I am sure if we were selling our cars and some idiot wanted to pay $50k above asking we would jump on it.

What I do fault dealers for is if I am on a wait list and was told MSRP only to have that change when the car comes in. That's a waste of my time and a very ****ty thing to do.
^ +1
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